The Castigators

[Zekk_Sirius]

Zekk: What makes you say that? If you're going to advocate me deleting a huge part of my fluff, try to back up your one-sentence statement. ;)

 

Apologies Commissar, just sharing my thoughts. Just seems that monitoring battle-brothers could be handled jointly between the Chapters' Apothecaries and Chaplains. While it does leave an empty spot about who records the Chapters' victories and battle details, this could just as easily be handled as a responsibility of the battle-brothers (the Black Templars also lack a Librarium, so must do something similar).

 

Having a rotation of brothers paint their power armour blue to create a Librarium just seems done solely for the sake of honouring the Codex Astartes (a fair enough reason in itself), but if that logic is followed, surely Librarian-psykers are 'sanctioned' as seen in their use by the strongest adherents to the Codex, the Ultramarines?

 

Just my thoughts. ;)

[Fire Fists Captain]

@ Zekk: Smurfs aren't the most Codex adherent Chapter in existence, there are others that follow it more closely, but they are just the Legion of its creator and GW's poster boys.

 

Sorry if that sounds a bit narky, I just wanted to point it out.

 

I suppose you have a point, but that's just one of the big contradictions of the 40k universe: psykers = warp, warp = chaos, chaos = evil and damnation, yet Emperor = psyker etc.

 

There are many different possible views on psykers, and all have lors of evidence to back them up. Personally, I think the no-psykers image fits the hard-line image of the Castigators very well, and the following rules for the rules-sake of painting armour blue, maintaining old records in writing etc is very evocative of the Gothic, crumbling systems that make up the image.

 

Plus it would take loads of effort to change a major part of the Chapter's background, so meh.

[Ferrus Manus]

Having a rotation of brothers paint their power armour blue to create a Librarium just seems done solely for the sake of honouring the Codex Astartes (a fair enough reason in itself), but if that logic is followed,

 

Who said anything about them painting their armour blue? ;)

[Zekk_Sirius]

@ Zekk: Smurfs aren't the most Codex adherent Chapter in existence, there are others that follow it more closely, but they are just the Legion of its creator and GW's poster boys.

 

Sorry if that sounds a bit narky, I just wanted to point it out.

 

No problem Fire Fists Captain, but I can only speak of published Chapters as I don't keep up with all the DIY ones. I do recall the Black Consuls were described as being even more hardline than possibly the Ultramarines, but there's little background on them.

 

I suppose you have a point, but that's just one of the big contradictions of the 40k universe: psykers = warp, warp = chaos, chaos = evil and damnation, yet Emperor = psyker etc.

 

There are many different possible views on psykers, and all have lors of evidence to back them up. Personally, I think the no-psykers image fits the hard-line image of the Castigators very well, and the following rules for the rules-sake of painting armour blue, maintaining old records in writing etc is very evocative of the Gothic, crumbling systems that make up the image.

 

Plus it would take loads of effort to change a major part of the Chapter's background, so meh.

 

Ah, I think you have misunderstood me, I'm not saying the Castigators must have psykers in their ranks (it surprises me actually the Black Templars are the only GW not to have any), but why should they keep the defunct Librarium organization, and all it entails.

 

Records could easily be maintained by Chapter serfs, who record battle-brother accounts, just as Chaplains could watch the ranks for any hint of warp-touched witches.

 

Who said anything about them painting their armour blue? ;)

 

Um, the one in the story "Machinery of Hate" does. Sorry if that's outdated now. ;)

[The Fabricator General]

I don't kno wwhy but since I stumbled across the acstigators I've gotton the impression that the permanent 'staff' of the librarium were somewhat shunned, in a similar fashion to the techmarines. I don't know where this asumtion came from but it has stuck with me. After reading Zekk's post I also asked 'why'. To me I think these lore keepers should be looked upon like the runepriests of the spacewolves keeping the history of the chapters alive by telling tales of the chapter to new recruits and using the chapters past to advise the commanders of the present. Strangely though that whole concept just makes me think of chaplains.

[Darrell]

I think there's a lot of healthy irony in the fact that, within the Castigators, the Librarium hunts down and eliminates psykers within their ranks. Remember, though, that it's not just a matter of hunting psykers; they also provide tactical advice, record histories and they can fight in warfare. They are still Battle Brothers, after all, just like Techmarines and Apothecaries. You can't expect a Chapter serf to fight like an Astartes, only an Astartes can fight like an Astartes.

 

The Chaplain already has other duties like tending to the spiritual purity of their brethren in addition to running the Reclusiam and perhaps tending to certain rituals. Apothecaries must collect geneseed and watch over newly implanted organs. Why add responsibility to them when the Librarium still serves a valid purpose even without psykers. Remember there's also a school of thought within the Imperium that says power is better when distributed amongst seperate parties, instead of allowing one person to handle multiple duties.

 

As for psykers being used by other Chapters, remember that the Emperor specifically spoke against the practice of sorcery and condemned Magnus and his Thousand Sons for it. There are exceptions, like Navigators, which the Emperor sanctioned but he was not as approving with Librarians. The Castigators are simply following the Emperor's advice.

 

As for Codiciers being looked down upon, I believe Mol wrote a story a while back that focused on a Codicier with a Castigators attachment and he seemed to encounter a lot of hostility from certain individuals. The Castigators are extremely bigoted and opinionated, and even the title "Codicier" carries connotations of the witch that they abhor. Something akin to the stigma that is now attached to the title of "Warmaster".

[Commissar Molotov]

Zekk: What makes you say that? If you're going to advocate me deleting a huge part of my fluff, try to back up your one-sentence statement. ;)

 

Apologies Commissar, just sharing my thoughts. Just seems that monitoring battle-brothers could be handled jointly between the Chapters' Apothecaries and Chaplains. While it does leave an empty spot about who records the Chapters' victories and battle details, this could just as easily be handled as a responsibility of the battle-brothers (the Black Templars also lack a Librarium, so must do something similar).

 

Having a rotation of brothers paint their power armour blue to create a Librarium just seems done solely for the sake of honouring the Codex Astartes (a fair enough reason in itself), but if that logic is followed, surely Librarian-psykers are 'sanctioned' as seen in their use by the strongest adherents to the Codex, the Ultramarines?

 

Just my thoughts. ;)

 

Don't misunderstand me - I'm glad to be getting comments from people that don't typically comment on the Castigators. You're right that monitoring the Battle-Brothers could be handled by the Chaplains and the Apothecaries. They would no doubt have a hand in it as well - in a Chapter as concerned with purity as the Castigators, no small effort would be expended on ensuring Battle-Brothers were not inadvertently corrupted. Whilst the Black Templars lack Librarians, I've not heard anything that suggests they lack a Librariam. It's possible. If so, it just adds another way for me to be distinct from the Templars, my closest 'competition' in the 40k universe. And whilst the Ultramarines use Librarians, the Castigators don't. The Castigators are religious zealots, and one of those deliciously fun things about zealots are the ways that gaping contradictions can exist in their belief system, and they can willfully ignore them, even though they're staring them in the face.

 

The Castigators hate psykers - but the Emperor's a psyker! Gasp!

 

There are many different possible views on psykers, and all have lors of evidence to back them up. Personally, I think the no-psykers image fits the hard-line image of the Castigators very well, and the following rules for the rules-sake of painting armour blue, maintaining old records in writing etc is very evocative of the Gothic, crumbling systems that make up the image.

 

Plus it would take loads of effort to change a major part of the Chapter's background, so meh.

 

I'm not concerned about effort. I'm not one of those namby-pamby Chapter creators afraid to touch their beloved magnum opus. If it needs changing, I'll change it. Numerous people would attest to that. But I don't think it needs changing. Perhaps it needs detailing and defining, but not removing. As you said, the idea of maintaining the office of the Librarian without the psychic powers is evocative of the Imperium, maintaining the facade even though the foundations have crumbled away. (Thanks for posting, by the way!)

 

Records could easily be maintained by Chapter serfs, who record battle-brother accounts, just as Chaplains could watch the ranks for any hint of warp-touched witches.

 

Perhaps serfs help in the Librariam itself, but not on the battlefield. Ultimately, I want the Castigators to have Librarians. It doesn't have to go any further than that. But adding further duties to the Chaplains and Apothecaries isn't what I want to do. Plus, there's irony that our Librarians watch for psychic taint and help protect the Chapter against psykers, as opposed to other Chapters, whose Librarians ARE the psykers.

 

Who said anything about them painting their armour blue? ;)

 

Um, the one in the story "Machinery of Hate" does. Sorry if that's outdated now. ;)

 

You're entirely right - the Castigator Librarians do wear blue armour.

 

I don't kno wwhy but since I stumbled across the acstigators I've gotton the impression that the permanent 'staff' of the librarium were somewhat shunned, in a similar fashion to the techmarines. I don't know where this asumtion came from but it has stuck with me. After reading Zekk's post I also asked 'why'. To me I think these lore keepers should be looked upon like the runepriests of the spacewolves keeping the history of the chapters alive by telling tales of the chapter to new recruits and using the chapters past to advise the commanders of the present. Strangely though that whole concept just makes me think of chaplains.

 

Nice to hear from you again, Fab-Gen. I think it's actually only the zealots that would distrust the Librarians. When I started writing Machinery of Hate, I tried to make Chaplain Punitus the only one that disliked Acastus (the Codicier) openly. I think certain zealots might dislike the office of the Librarian just because of the negative connotations it might hold. The moderates, however (typically the bulk of the Chapter) would respect the Librarians for their wisdom and their accomplishments.

 

Chaplains might tell stories of mighty victories and fallen heroes to inspire. Librarians record whatever the outcome. They would do things like compile information on allies and enemies, record the tales from the Dreadnoughts, catalogue the Chapter's captured trophies and advise Captains when it came to operating alongside other Imperial organisations. As I said before, they don't have to set things on fire to be Librarians.

[Zekk_Sirius]

I think it's actually only the zealots that would distrust the Librarians. When I started writing Machinery of Hate, I tried to make Chaplain Punitus the only one that disliked Acastus (the Codicier) openly. I think certain zealots might dislike the office of the Librarian just because of the negative connotations it might hold. The moderates, however (typically the bulk of the Chapter) would respect the Librarians for their wisdom and their accomplishments.

 

Could it not be argued that the 'zealots' might have a certain degree of respect too, however? After all, the Librarians' function within the Castigators is finding and eliminating nascent witches in their ranks.

 

The witch-haters hate the witch-killers? ;)

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, of course. It's certainly not black-and-white. One thing I'm trying to show with the Castigators is that Space Marines are people too, with a person's emotions. You can have mixed admiration and doubt in someone, I think.

[The Fabricator General]

So I'm guessing that that 'librarians' deal in fact. Where as the chaplains act as the 'spin doctors' taking the acounts of the librarians and feeding the bits that'll get the blood going to the masses.

 

I know I sugessted that the librarians should be respected as lore keepers but on the flipside could it be that they are seen as aloof and difficult to read because they have a less imperium tinted outlook on the chapters history.

[Commissar Molotov]

Hah, perhaps. The Librarians are the party-poopers. :P

 

They are perhaps aloof, but I think you can respect someone that's aloof. They might frustrate and annoy, but they're deserving of respect. Hrm.

[The Fabricator General]

I'd get pissed off with someone if they refused to hate everything that I hated.

[Tyrannicide]

I'd get pissed off with someone if they refused to hate everything that I hated.

:P Those damn Chaplains!

[Commissar Molotov]

I'd get pissed off with someone if they refused to hate everything that I hated.

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/casti-low.jpg

Welcome to the Castigators, brother. :P

[Heru]

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/casti-low.jpg

The wrongness of that image is painful to my eyes...

[ToyShip]

The wrongness of that image is painful to my eyes...

 

But it's so,......B-E-A-UTIFUL! :)

[LoneWolven]

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, didn't take the time to read the whole thread... but did the Sons of Korhal symbol from Starcraft inspire your chapters logo?

[Nash Trickster]

Just something that crossed my mind and that I thought I should share:

 

I don't really know why but when I think "Castigator+Librarian" the first image that comes to mind is that of the character Jorge de Burgos from the movie The Name of the Rose, a stern, blind elder... (And I can't help finding the fact that I imagine a blind character quite ironic since "blindness" is quite closely related to Astropaths in the 40k-verse. An irony which is IMO too good to pass...)

 

But it gave me an idea which could maybe be of use to you Mol: from what you said, the Zealots (at least) have only contempt for the position of Librarian. And I thus conclude that the Librarium would be almost free of their influence, which would IMO be a pity (for the history of the chapter would then be written almost only by "moderates"...)

Now, the fact that I can't help thinking about a blind character got me thinking "what if the Castigators appointed those brothers who are dimmed 'too diminished to be of real use on the battlefield' to the Librarium?" The elder, those who suffered wounds which limit they combat abilities, etc...

 

If it was so, then being appointed to the Librarium would be seen as a kind of "curse" for most Castigators, being put into a position usually occupied by witches seen as a stain on their honour, they'd rather have died in the battle that caused them the wound that led them to this position within the chapter, but it would make them even more zealous in their "screening duties"...

[Commissar Molotov]

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, didn't take the time to read the whole thread... but did the Sons of Korhal symbol from Starcraft inspire your chapters logo?

 

Thanks for the input. You don't need to read the whole thread if you don't want to; obviously I'd point you towards you to the IA article in the first post - hopefully it'll be interesting for you. As for the Chapter Badge, yes - the Sons of Korhal did inspire the badge, though they're not the same. You can see a comparison here:

 

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/Castigators/Castikorhal.png

 

:)

 

 

Just something that crossed my mind and that I thought I should share:

 

I don't really know why but when I think "Castigator+Librarian" the first image that comes to mind is that of the character Jorge de Burgos from the movie The Name of the Rose, a stern, blind elder... (And I can't help finding the fact that I imagine a blind character quite ironic since "blindness" is quite closely related to Astropaths in the 40k-verse. An irony which is IMO too good to pass...)

 

But it gave me an idea which could maybe be of use to you Mol: from what you said, the Zealots (at least) have only contempt for the position of Librarian. And I thus conclude that the Librarium would be almost free of their influence, which would IMO be a pity (for the history of the chapter would then be written almost only by "moderates"...)

Now, the fact that I can't help thinking about a blind character got me thinking "what if the Castigators appointed those brothers who are dimmed 'too diminished to be of real use on the battlefield' to the Librarium?" The elder, those who suffered wounds which limit they combat abilities, etc...

 

If it was so, then being appointed to the Librarium would be seen as a kind of "curse" for most Castigators, being put into a position usually occupied by witches seen as a stain on their honour, they'd rather have died in the battle that caused them the wound that led them to this position within the chapter, but it would make them even more zealous in their "screening duties"...

 

That in itself is really something that could prove the core for a Chapter of its own. Obviously I'm thankful for the suggestion but I can't jam every cool idea into the Castigators - it just wouldn't work. As mentioned by Zekk Sirius, the Zealots wouldn't have only hatred for the Librarians. Some of the more Conservative Zealots might have respect for the Librarians. I agree that there wouldn't be many zealots in the Librarium, but there might perhaps be one or two. Still, the moderates of the Chapter still hate mutants and the like - the Librarians are still zealots from an Imperial standpoint, but moderates from a Castigator standpoint. And I can see some of the older, crippled Castigators in the Librariam or elsewhere in the Master's household. Partly, my idea that every Brother served in the Librariam for a time was to try to alleviate some of the tensions, to try to stop the Librarians being too distant from the bulk of the Chapter (unlike the Techmarines), because every Brother would serve some time in the Librariam.

[Hasoroth]

A quick query, how do the Librarians of the Castigators detect and eliminate latent psykers?

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, until psykers are fact and not something the GW teams have invented, we won't know the minutiae. I can't say that X works infallibly, because I don't know if it would. However, as I only said a few posts up... :P

 

It's always been somewhat of a grey area. If we assume that there are very few psykers in the recruitment pool for the Castigators, the problem is greatly reduced. But aside from that, the Librarium would have to have certain pieces of equipment that would prove incredibly harmful for psykers. Items like the null rod/null field generator. Perhaps some of these items would have been donated by the Ordo Hereticus to ensure that the Chapter had some form of defence against the psyker. After all, I can't use Psychic Hoods... :P

 

As for eliminating them... well, killing is the business of the Space Marines... :)

[Hasoroth]

Bah, careful analysis of a thread isn't for the likes of my manly self (:D). Sorry about that, should have checked xD.

 

As for eliminating, how, I know the Castigators will do it, but from what I've read of GW fiction, sometimes a bolt to the head won't work.

[Darrell]

By any means necessary, is probably the answer. How they are eliminated isn't particularly important; a psyker is taken away and never seen again. Maybe they put a bolt through his head, maybe they throw him in the power generator, maybe they put him an air lock and fire him out into space. All that matters is they are purged from the Chapter for their mutation.

[Heru]

Well, until psykers are fact and not something the GW teams have invented, we won't know the minutiae. I can't say that X works infallibly, because I don't know if it would. However, as I only said a few posts up... :P

 

It's always been somewhat of a grey area. If we assume that there are very few psykers in the recruitment pool for the Castigators, the problem is greatly reduced. But aside from that, the Librarium would have to have certain pieces of equipment that would prove incredibly harmful for psykers. Items like the null rod/null field generator. Perhaps some of these items would have been donated by the Ordo Hereticus to ensure that the Chapter had some form of defence against the psyker. After all, I can't use Psychic Hoods... :huh:

Psi-tracker and Psyocculum, the latter being Witch finding eyepieces.

[Commissar Molotov]

Quite.