Nash Trickster Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 I think the key in differentiating them from Biel-Tan (in my mind at least) would be controlling the shape of the vines - rather than random swirls, having them be in a band or a wreath.That's somehow what I've unconsciously done... I've used the 'popular' tatoo motif of 2 "vines" intertwined for my quick photoshop mock-up and I indeed think it's part of what makes it not "Biel Tan"-like.The thorn-wreath is actually one of the "real life" heraldic devices that is surprisingly not used that much in 40k imagery while it fits perfectly to the gothic feel of the setting. Also, an idea I had: The other thing the thorn-wreath remind me about is the "Cilice", this kind of band with metallic thorns on the inside that "some people" attach around a limb as a mortification penance, making each move painful... I can picture the most zealot Castigators using such a device to punish themselves from alledged "sins" (such as not killing enough heretics during the last battle, etc...) <_< Or, the idea of "voluntarily inflicting oneself pain" could be adapted to SMs, and some of the more zealots within the chapter could maybe purposefully drain the pain-killers stock of their armours before battles to feel the full pain of "failing the Emperor" when they get wounded? (Something which would obviously be frowned upon by both the Apothecaries and the Chapter's command but secretely encouraged by some of the Captains/Chaplains?) But maybe that'd make them too "flagellant" like? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1674093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted August 28, 2008 Author Share Posted August 28, 2008 Quick note - I included a picture in my last post, so it's easier to see. There's a bigger picture linked in the post. I know of the cilice from The Da Vinci Code. and I'm not sure. It's possible. I mentioned the idea of self-mutilation in the original IA article. I never wanted it to be a core, key part of the Chapter ideal, but just an outlying idea that helped make the Chapter seem multi-faceted. It's like yesterday I was talking to Aerion, who said that he always sees the Castigators as haloed by blinding light - the Castigators do see suns and stars as potent symbols of death, which is why Sirius has taken the starburst as his heraldry, but I wouldn't want to see every Castigator ever with a starburst upon their armour. There's many themes and ideas within the Castigators and there are some in there that I don't want to take to extremes. I don't necessarily want the Castigators to be "the flagellant Chapter." The Castigators revere the Emperor, for His sacrifice and for all He had to endure to ensure that humanity survived the dark days of the Horus Heresy. He surrendered more than most can even imagine. Many of the chapter's marines commit acts of self-mutilation in an attempt to further their own spiritual growth. These acts are overlooked by the Chapter's commanders, as they encourage piety. The pain is welcomed, and is a small price to pay for understanding even a small sliver of the Emperor's suffering and sacrifice. With that said, 'to Castigate' means 'to punish' and the idea was always that they punished their enemies - but that they were equally hard upon themselves. Strength through strife. The purest would out, and the Chapter would remain strong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1674226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Trickster Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 I never wanted it to be a core, key part of the Chapter ideal, but just an outlying idea that helped make the Chapter seem multi-faceted.Maybe I didn't make it clear enough that it's what I suggested... The interesting part about having some Castigators using Cilices and/or "secretly" draining the pain-killers from their armours, is that it wouldn't be endorsed by the Chapter at all! Only a few of the most Zealot Captains and Chaplains would "recommend" such practices but always unofficially. The chapter's official "statement" about such conducts would be something along the lines of "Self-inflicted pain while on the battlefield slows a brother, makes him less focused on his mission and thus less efficient in doing the Emperor's deeds. Hence such practices cannot be accepted..." (cue a list of rightful punishments for anyone caught in the act). The Zealots unofficial "argumentation" would be "If pain slows you down, then you're not trying hard enough. If pain makes you loose focus, you're not focusing hard enough. If pain makes you fail your Emperor, then you haven't understood pain's purpose. Only through living pain can you understand its purpose. If you're afraid to be punished, then you certainly deserve to be!" I don't think such "trivial" aspects of the chapter should appear in their IA, but since you'll be dwelving deeper in all the Castigators' aspects with your website, I think including such things would bring a level of depth to the chapter which can only be interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1674247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted August 28, 2008 Author Share Posted August 28, 2008 "If pain slows you down, then you're not trying hard enough. If pain makes you loose focus, you're not focusing hard enough. If pain makes you fail your Emperor, then you haven't understood pain's purpose. Only through living pain can you understand its purpose..." Hah, I like that. I might perhaps be able to work in something focusing around the more extreme beliefs of the zealots within the Chapter. It's definitely an interesting line of thought... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1674667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted August 29, 2008 Author Share Posted August 29, 2008 This is slightly off-topic, but pertains to the basic construction of my IA article - and my writing style. So I guess it's somewhat pertinent after all. I was sent a link to http://wordle.net, which analyses a piece of work with some algorithm and rates the words within based on their usage. This is the result after putting the Castigators' IA through. I've set it to take out the common English words (so that 'the', 'and' and 'of' don't dominate): http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/Castigatorwordle.jpg You can see a larger-sized version here. It shows some interesting things - not least that I need to go through and capitalise all the instances of 'Chapter'! Still, key words such as 'Marines', 'Imperium' 'Warriors' and 'Worship' can be made out. My thought was that key thematic elements would've been threaded throughout the IA and thus be relatively large. Whilst 'mutants' can be easily read', It somewhat disappoints me that 'pure' isn't on there, and that 'purity' isn't larger. I'm somewhat curious as to whether the Castigators' key themes are evident or not. Octavulg made an incredibly pertinent point earlier in this thread when he said that at the end of the day, I had to be the one satisfied with the end result - and I'm not sure that it is fulfilling the functions I want it to. I'm hoping to sit down over the next few days and conduct some hefty revisions. :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1675158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.(Space)Marine Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Wow that picture looks cool, it does show what words are used the most ("mutants" seems to be a big one). I think I may use that site there for some of my own works. I have not yet commented on your IA, but as most have said it is great, the art is great, and its a unique chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1675191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 1, 2008 Author Share Posted September 1, 2008 I have not yet commented on your IA, but as most have said it is great, the art is great, and its a unique chapter. Thanks! I think NemFX had it right when he said none of my ideas are unique - they're just expressed in a unique way. The Castigators are distinct rather than different. Superficially you could compare them to the Black Templars, but there are differences enough to seperate the two. In an effort not to derail this thread I've posted an entry in my blog here about the new Castigators website. I'm looking for opinions from everybody that wants to participate! :nuke: I'll be thankful to anybody that chooses to respond. :) I've heard from one of the staffers at my GW that the new Space Marine Codex (which is 'as thick as a DVD case') includes a lengthy section detailing the Ultramarines Second Company - each squad has a name and a history. I'm very keen to see what's going to be included in the new Codex, and whether it will affect the Castigators. For example, I'm curious how 'Sternguard' and 'Vanguard' will interact with the First Company. The Castigators have a different First Company organisation due to their twenty-one suits of TDA; they have four Terminator squads and then eight Veteran squads. The new Codex can't come soon enough! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1678675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Dear me, this chapter just gets more and more detailed. I seem to have missed a fair bit on these boys. Have to say great work on your part Mol for having the patience to carry on evolving this chapter! Surprised to hear the new 'dex is going to be as thick as a DVD case, that is rather exciting news, i will be getting my grubby mits on a copy i am very sure. I like the sound of the Ultramarines having histories and squad names printed, not sure if anything like that has been done before so i am looking forward to it. Look forward to reading more on the Castigators if they need to evolve again due to the new 'dex, and to see the new webby. :blush: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1678749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 6, 2008 Author Share Posted September 6, 2008 Well, today I managed to get down my Games Workshop and read the Codex for an hour or so. There's a lot of interesting things. I've been planning on using Sicarius to count-as Captain Anteas, and his rules are certainly interesting. He's equipped with a sword which I'll quite happily be counting as the Sword of Sorrows, gifted to Anteas by the Sisters of Battle. (Feel free to make your own jokes about him wielding a woman's weapon... :P) Hopefully I'll be getting pictures of my Anteas conversion soon! :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1684420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrus Manus Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Hopefully I'll be getting pictures of my Anteas conversion soon! Excellent can't wait to see him, I'll try and get my latest pics of Tigris up asap. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1684424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 6, 2008 Author Share Posted September 6, 2008 You know, I saw the Red Scorpions Vanguard on Forgeworld and thought the Vet Sgt Culln model would make a great base for Tigris: http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z121/mnesimache/vanrs3.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1684442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannicide Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 I think that model fits Tigris perfectly. I really like all the details, and the armor itself looks ornate enough for the young-gun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1684474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrus Manus Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 I think that model fits Tigris perfectly. Its just a shame he doesn't have an axe... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1684488 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 6, 2008 Author Share Posted September 6, 2008 Well, one of the plastic assault squad arms has an axe. Should be easy to do the switch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1684561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 6, 2008 Author Share Posted September 6, 2008 So I've managed to get hold of the Codex once more and I have to report I'm deeply saddened by this snippet: Black Consuls: "Recorded as annihilated at the Siege of Goddeth Hive, 455.M41. Current status unknown." It's terrible for the Castigators, and definitely something that's going to have some impact. A black day for the Chapter! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1684632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannicide Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Indeed. As we spoke about earlier, definitely something the Castigators would mourn once receiving word about the events that unfolded. Whether this is repainting sections of their power armor, adorning plates with litanies and scripts, or painting symbols, you'll have to decide. In other news. I've been intrigued by thoughts of long dead heroes of the Castigators Chapter, especially the Chapter Masters. You've noted three named commanders: Baraquiel, Septimus, and present Chapter Master Quintilius. I'm also fascinated with the old Librarians of the Chapter, the Marines with a psychic presence particularly. I find these times would be interesting to speculate about, considering the Chapter slowly absorbs the Loscanan beliefs and awaits the mutants deaths. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1684649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 So I've managed to get hold of the Codex once more and I have to report I'm deeply saddened by this snippet: Black Consuls: "Recorded as annihilated at the Siege of Goddeth Hive, 455.M41. Current status unknown." It's terrible for the Castigators, and definitely something that's going to have some impact. A black day for the Chapter! Dear Gods a 2nd Foundling has been wiped out... surely the the fact that the status is unknown leaves room for there to be survivors! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1684651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 6, 2008 Author Share Posted September 6, 2008 Well, I figure the "current status unknown" and "reported as being wiped out" leave room for people to wiggle, but it's still very disheartening. I'm hoping the Consuls have survived - I'm hoping they tell us more about the Siege at some stage... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1684662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castigator Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Yes, I often get comments about those Castigators. As I understand, they're actually Emperor's Children legionnaires, but their warband is known by the nickname of 'The Castigators'. Much like there's a Raptors Space Marine chapter and the assault troops in Codex: Chaos are called Raptors. Though my Castigators could totally kick their ass, obviously... B) No they aren't an Emperors Children Warband, they're an Imperial Fists successor Chapter that have succumbed to Slaanesh. Great work though....even if the name has already been taken :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1685927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nash Trickster Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Black Consuls: "Recorded as annihilated at the Siege of Goddeth Hive, 455.M41. Current status unknown." It's terrible for the Castigators, and definitely something that's going to have some impact. A black day for the Chapter! Well, I can see this having a different impact on the different factions... For example, if Baraquiel was seen as somewhat of an "extremist" amongst the Black Consuls, which may have played a part in the decision to give him command of the Castigators (a way for the Consuls to "get rid" of an "annoying" brother), then the Zealots faction inside the Castigators could see this a "due punishment" for the Black Consuls' "laxist" ways... :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1685943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 8, 2008 Author Share Posted September 8, 2008 No they aren't an Emperors Children Warband, they're an Imperial Fists successor Chapter that have succumbed to Slaanesh. Well, have fun with them, then. :D Well, I can see this having a different impact on the different factions... For example, if Baraquiel was seen as somewhat of an "extremist" amongst the Black Consuls, which may have played a part in the decision to give him command of the Castigators (a way for the Consuls to "get rid" of an "annoying" brother), then the Zealots faction inside the Castigators could see this a "due punishment" for the Black Consuls' "laxist" ways... ;) The Consuls and the Castigators have (or I should say 'had', now...) a good relationship with each other. The Consuls were depicted as being 'zealous', even if that zealotry was channeled towads the Codex Astartes. Baraquiel was simply particularly pious and zealous. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1686015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannicide Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 I noticed that the Daebilis War will need to be moved backwards on the Castigators timeline now, or tossed all together. Anyways the point of this post is actually about the Word Bearers and their relationship with the Castigators. I think it would be a good idea if we had a sense of some particular hosts the Castigators have faced, and do they have any particular grudges against a certain Dark Apostle? Now obviously the Chapter's hate for the traitor legion is on a broad scale, but there must be some personal bitterness between a certain Company or Captain and a Word Bearers Leader, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1689120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 10, 2008 Author Share Posted September 10, 2008 I noticed that the Daebilis War will need to be moved backwards on the Castigators timeline now, or tossed all together. Anyways the point of this post is actually about the Word Bearers and their relationship with the Castigators. I think it would be a good idea if we had a sense of some particular hosts the Castigators have faced, and do they have any particular grudges against a certain Dark Apostle? Now obviously the Chapter's hate for the traitor legion is on a broad scale, but there must be some personal bitterness between a certain Company or Captain and a Word Bearers Leader, right? Yes, the Daebilis War will need to be moved back prior to the apparent destruction of the Black Consuls. I think that Quintilius will have to dispatch a force to Goddeth Hive in order to ascertain what happened to the Black Consuls. I can imagine that being incredibly sad. Perhaps Escalus? I'd need to check when he became First Captain. Or perhaps Caphius, being the Old Guard. I can imagine that being an incredibly sad time for the Chapter. And yet part of me wonders what would happen to any of the Black Consuls' equipment that survives. If vehicles or armour could be salvaged, would the Castigators do it? As for the Word Bearers, sure. The Castigators fought a heavy war against the Word Bearers in the Garret Insurrection (900.M41) and again at Maethax. And again during the War of Woe (though that had the Word Bearers supporting the Black Legion). I've not really gotten round to naming any of them, but no doubt it'll happen eventually. In other news. I've been intrigued by thoughts of long dead heroes of the Castigators Chapter, especially the Chapter Masters. You've noted three named commanders: Baraquiel, Septimus, and present Chapter Master Quintilius. I'm also fascinated with the old Librarians of the Chapter, the Marines with a psychic presence particularly. I find these times would be interesting to speculate about, considering the Chapter slowly absorbs the Loscanan beliefs and awaits the mutants deaths. If I weren't stymied by a lack of knowledge about the Castigators' founding dates, I'd try to draw up a full timeline of the Castigators' Masters. I really need to name a few more, but I'll get there eventually. As to the last psychic Librarian, Darrell and I talked about it a long time ago. I imagine him being quite a melancholy, quiet character, fully aware what was happening to the Chapter, yet still serving as Baraquiel asked. Very poignant. Perhaps all the more so now that the Castigators have become something else entirely, and their sacrifice is not given due deference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1689126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannicide Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Yes, the Daebilis War will need to be moved back prior to the apparent destruction of the Black Consuls. I think that Quintilius will have to dispatch a force to Goddeth Hive in order to ascertain what happened to the Black Consuls. I can imagine that being incredibly sad. Perhaps Escalus? I'd need to check when he became First Captain. Or perhaps Caphius, being the Old Guard. I can imagine that being an incredibly sad time for the Chapter. And yet part of me wonders what would happen to any of the Black Consuls' equipment that survives. If vehicles or armour could be salvaged, would the Castigators do it? I would like to discern what happened in these dire times, perhaps Caphius leads a demi-company and is accompanied by a staff of aiding Apothecaries and Techamarines? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1689232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted September 11, 2008 Author Share Posted September 11, 2008 My life would be made a million times easier if only I knew who the Consuls fought at Goddeth Hive. Logically, based on the date, it can't be Tyranids, Tau or Necrons, leaving me with Orks or Chaos.I also don't know if the Consuls were trying to break the siege, or were besieged. Given how Space Marine Chapters depend on mobility, I can see that being besieged might be a horribly unfortunate situation for them - but Chapters typically would have orbital support, etc, etc. What on earth happened to the Black Consuls? :P Given that the Consuls are reported destroyed in 455, and then the Ultramarines suffer horrendous casualties against Behemoth in 745, it's easy to see how the 41st Millennium is the 'Dark Millennium'. Ironic given that at 000.M41, the Imperium thought it was about to enter a golden age - Macharius brought so much but then his life was cut short... another of the innumerable tragedies that litter the universe of the grimdark. I also realised that if it's 455, Caphius wouldn't even be a Captain. It would be the Chapter Master before Quintilius, the one that died in 900.M41 - or perhaps even the one before him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/80277-the-castigators/page/21/#findComment-1689316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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