The Castigators

[brother varen]

Ferrus, it sounds alright to me. But wouldn't these families be tracing their ancesters like those from Macrragge? A source of honor among the different settlements. I can see many settlements (rivials) competting for the honor of becoming chosen. Also, the Wall of Heros, would be housed in the company cripts, wouldn't it?

 

Mol, didn't you have a version of the chapter badge as a scourge (whip with multiple ends)? The prime helix sounds very interesting, but what would it be displayed for? A pre-battle meditation to symbolize their purity? Maybe a custom done by sergeants and above to amfirm their purity before battle by allowing the Apothecaries to do a vary strict regieme of testing on them? This would be displayed on their left kneepad, would it be a red symbol on a white field or a white symbol on a red field?

 

All the Castigators use sun symbols? :unsure: I thought only the 3rd company would use them.

 

Who would be allowed to use a varient chapter badge?

 

The kneepad company marking would be used by just troops correct? Apothecaries, Chaplains, and "Librarians" would not use the kneepad company markings, right? So the shoulder chapter badge with company markings incorporated in it would be correct for Apothecaries, Chaplians, and "Librarians"?

 

How are team leaders marked or bannered? Only sergeants are allowed to have banners, right?

 

Scouts have a white stripe painted across their eyes on their faces,right? What color are you painting the scouts clothing?

 

Has anyone used the new GW washes and foundation paints in their painting reciepe for the Castigators? Thanks, Ferrus, for your reciepe :unsure:

[Commissar Molotov]

Ferrus, it sounds alright to me. But wouldn't these families be tracing their ancesters like those from Macrragge? A source of honor among the different settlements. I can see many settlements (rivials) competting for the honor of becoming chosen. Also, the Wall of Heros, would be housed in the company cripts, wouldn't it?

 

You raise a good point - a society keen on genetic purity might put a lot of emphasis on lineage - the whole "X, son of X, son of X..." angle. Though the Losanco fluff has Chaplains taking boys from the mutant-hunting parties that fight along the twilight against the mutants, even leading raids into the light-side.

 

When Ferrus talked about the Wall of Heroes, I don't think he was being specific. I don't think the Castigators have a Wall of Heroes, and you're right that the Company Chapels (and their attendant crypts) would bear the roster of fallen Heroes. Of course, it would also be the duty of the Librarians to record and honour the deeds of the fallen.

 

Mol, didn't you have a version of the chapter badge as a scourge (whip with multiple ends)? The prime helix sounds very interesting, but what would it be displayed for? A pre-battle meditation to symbolize their purity? Maybe a custom done by sergeants and above to amfirm their purity before battle by allowing the Apothecaries to do a vary strict regieme of testing on them? This would be displayed on their left kneepad, would it be a red symbol on a white field or a white symbol on a red field?

 

I've not seen a version of the badge as a scourge, no. I don't think it would exist. I can imagine the symbol perhaps being in different colours, or displayed differently, but I don't know about actually changing the whip to something else. There's a page in Insignium Astartes which features variant symbols of the Ultramarines Chapter and mostly it's just different colours and such, as I recall. I'll get back to you on that. Variant Chapter symbols aren't really a priority when most people have enough trouble doing the basic one! ;)

 

The prime helix is just an attestation of purity, akin to a purity seal. Perhaps it might be more associated with zealots, but I don't know about it being "Chaplains and above". It could be on any Marine, perhaps. As for red/white or white/red - it could be both. Just as if you look at Fabricator-General's Castigators, not all of them have the same tactical symbols. If you're after that style of gothic and archaic markings that've been accrued over the millennia, that's up to you.

 

All the Castigators use sun symbols? :unsure: I thought only the 3rd company would use them.

 

Who would be allowed to use a varient chapter badge?

 

Variant badges would be a badge of honour, an award for particularly valorous deeds, I imagine. As to the sun symbol, yes, all Castigators would utilise them, it's just Sirius has adopted the halo as his heraldry, and is enamoured with the light/dark dichotomy. The idea of the power of the sun meshes nicely with the destructive potential he can unleash as Master of the Arsenal. Halos and starbursts could be worked into heraldry and iconography.

 

 

The kneepad company marking would be used by just troops correct? Apothecaries, Chaplains, and "Librarians" would not use the kneepad company markings, right? So the shoulder chapter badge with company markings incorporated in it would be correct for Apothecaries, Chaplians, and "Librarians"?

 

My personal opinion is that all Castigators attached to a Company (this doesn't include Techmarines) would bear the kneepad markings, where possible. If Marines don't have kneepads it could be incorporated as a badge on the greave or on the left (non Chapter symbol) shoulderpad. Chaplains would have the Company symbol. Some Marines could have another Company designator elsewhere in addition to their kneepad, which is what Tiberius was going for with his picture of Argentus.

 

How are team leaders marked or bannered? Only sergeants are allowed to have banners, right?

 

Depends on practicality and the requirements of the mission. If I can, I want all Sergeants and all Squad Leaders to have banners. I like it, and I think it's one of those aesthetic stylings intrinsic to 40k. As I mentioned, the Codex designation for the Squad Leader is the Iron Halo.

 

Scouts have a white stripe painted across their eyes on their faces,right? What color are you painting the scouts clothing?

 

The white stripe is a traditional symbol of the mutant hunters, which is why many of the scouts bear it - they don't have to, though. I would paint the scouts quite dark, with black or charcoal fatigues.

[Marshal Rohr]

As a matter of thrift, I dont give all Team Leaders Banners, but I do give them some kind of raised totem on their fusion packs. See Team leader Vorenus for details :o !

[Ferrus Manus]

I can see it both ways - it's likely to happen but in order for them to be a 'veteran' it would have to be several generations in the past. Plus, like the Dark Angels the Castigators are given their names on their acceptance into the Chapter - they aren't born with them. So it might be difficult for an aspirant to be endowed with this knowledge.

They only way around it would be for the Castigators to have records of their Battle-Brother's previous names then, that or a vision. And yes, X would be the aspirants' great great great granddad or something.

 

Ferrus, it sounds alright to me. But wouldn't these families be tracing their ancesters like those from Macrragge? A source of honor among the different settlements. I can see many settlements (rivials) competting for the honor of becoming chosen. Also, the Wall of Heros, would be housed in the company cripts, wouldn't it?

You raise a good point - a society keen on genetic purity might put a lot of emphasis on lineage - the whole "X, son of X, son of X..." angle. Though the Losanco fluff has Chaplains taking boys from the mutant-hunting parties that fight along the twilight against the mutants, even leading raids into the light-side.

 

When Ferrus talked about the Wall of Heroes, I don't think he was being specific. I don't think the Castigators have a Wall of Heroes, and you're right that the Company Chapels (and their attendant crypts) would bear the roster of fallen Heroes. Of course, it would also be the duty of the Librarians to record and honour the deeds of the fallen.

Both good points. I suggested the idea for Tigris, I thought that maybe Victrix could have belonged to a dead ancestor of his, so he took it from his crypt or from the armoury as a matter of honour.

[brother varen]

Ferrus, it could still work. But instead of taking the item for his ancestor's crypt, i would suggest that on Tigris' iniation into the Castigators that the Librarians and chaplains checked into his lineage. Upon raising to the rank of captain or doing a great deed in the chapter's eyes, they would gift his ancestor's weapon to him in a ceremony.

 

With the Castigator's belief in purity, I would see them having some traditions bound to it. Especialy the gifting of honoured weapons from past heros.

 

Mol, I believe that the Losanco fluff might need to be looked into more. The whole aspraint lineage would further enforce the Castigator belief in purity. But this is only a suggestion :cuss Maybe assigning a chaplain to each settlement, where as to watch "their" lineage of aspriants would work.

 

Nine, good spot. but if we look at the world of today as a reference, its possible. Maybe its a requirement before the boy goes on a hunt to further his lineage, set by the settlement elders?

[brother varen]

Mol, i was thinking of making a flamer turret for a Razorback, like the Immolator. Would this be ok to use with the Castigators?

[Donkey Kong]

Varen, a post like that? For a chaplain? Maybe one of the 'Librarians' could do it during their rotation in the archives? But, from previous fluff it looks like Chaplains are at the head of all the companies inspiring the Marines.

[brother varen]

King, the chaplains would watch the aspriant and judge him by their actions on the hunts. Once accepted into the chapter their birth names would be entered into the Librarian's annuals. The Librarians would research the aspriant's lineage. If the lineage is to a great hero, i would think he would be "marked or watched". But if each chaplain is in charge of each settlement, the bloodlines or lineage of the future aspriant should be known to him.

 

As to the people of Losanco, once the boy was chosen, the settlement historian or elder would enter him into their annuals of selection. I see the settlement or village seeing this as a great honor and maybe celebrating in some way.

 

Now to lineage: I think that before a boy goes on the quest of selection or great hunt, village tradition would be that he marry and concieve a child before his hunt to mantain bloodline purity.

[Donkey Kong]

I see what you mean. However, a accepted boy must wait several months to leave Losanco, and Emperor forbid that this child is born with a mutation, may I ask what then?

 

One question I have concerning the hunts, though, is how often is a hunt done, is there some scheduling? Does a Chaplain watch every hunt?

[Marshal Rohr]

I thought the hunts were like raiding parties. Not big events. I like the idea of one or two Castigators being able to trace lineage, but not all of them.

 

Ferrus, if you had him be related to the Hero-Captain I think it would be funny for Caphius to be jealous of him.

[Donkey Kong]

He sees himself as his successor, wouldn't he be more driven to treat him as a son and even closer brother?

 

If you do go the route of jealousy, have him insult him at every turn, just go against what he says for the hell of it. Either way would make me chuckle, really.

[Commissar Molotov]

They only way around it would be for the Castigators to have records of their Battle-Brother's previous names then, that or a vision. And yes, X would be the aspirants' great great great granddad or something.

 

Personally I'm not sure that they would. Possibly, potentially - but I'm not sure.

 

Both good points. I suggested the idea for Tigris, I thought that maybe Victrix could have belonged to a dead ancestor of his, so he took it from his crypt or from the armoury as a matter of honour.

 

I think that idea is a little trite. Personally I don't much like brothers being inducted (though I imagine it can happen) - Perhaps because I like to emphaise the bond of brotherhood between all Marines, rather than familial relationships. I wouldn't like to think that Nepotism could exist in a Space Marine Chapter, for example.

 

 

They only way around it would be for the Castigators to have records of their Battle-Brother's previous names then, that or a vision. And yes, X would be the aspirants' great great great granddad or something.

I think it's also worth pointing out that this dead veteran would have had to have children before he reached the ripe old age of 14 and was taken into the chapter.

 

Edit: I guess it could be an uncle or something though...

 

I had figured it would be an uncle, rather than being directly related.

 

 

Mol, I believe that the Losanco fluff might need to be looked into more. The whole aspraint lineage would further enforce the Castigator belief in purity. But this is only a suggestion ;) Maybe assigning a chaplain to each settlement, where as to watch "their" lineage of aspriants would work.

 

Nine, good spot. but if we look at the world of today as a reference, its possible. Maybe its a requirement before the boy goes on a hunt to further his lineage, set by the settlement elders?

 

I'll look for my Losancan fluff, though there's a fair bit in this thread when talking about the Mutant Hunters. I'll give it some thought, as there are some subtle changes I want to make. I don't want Chaplains - or any Castigators - inhabiting the settlements, as my idea was that the castigators would be held in an almost mythical status.

 

 

Mol, i was thinking of making a flamer turret for a Razorback, like the Immolator. Would this be ok to use with the Castigators?

 

Isn't there a heavy flamer Razorback in the Codex? I thought there was.

 

Now to lineage: I think that before a boy goes on the quest of selection or great hunt, village tradition would be that he marry and concieve a child before his hunt to mantain bloodline purity.

 

I'm not sure about that, given that Space Marines require neophytes to be aged between ten and twelve.

[Marshal Rohr]

Neophyte inductive is chapter preference. The BT's take in up to what looked like a 20 year old or older (Damnation Crusade), the Ultramarines 14-17 year olds (Defenders of Ultramar), and the Red Scorpions take babies so all they ever know is the chapter (IA:IV, IIRC).

[Commissar Molotov]

Damnation Crusade contradicts the Rites of Initiation article from Index Astartes - which I would prefer. My understanding is taht the Secondary Heart and the Biscopea have to be implanted by the age of twelve in order to take properly. The Castigators would want the implants to take properly, so they'd be less likely to reject the organs.

[CantonWC]

I would just like to take the time to place an obligatory post in this epic thread, to show that I managed to read through almost the entire thing over the course of several days in my never ending quest to learn the finer points of making DIY Chapters :P With any luck the useful information and ponderings herein will help make my own Chapter that much better ;)

[Brother Argent]

Very much that way, isn't it Canton. I check up on the updates of the Castigators thread here all the time. If you wanted an example of a great DIY Chapter, well here it is...

[flameseeker574]

the recruitment age is between 10-15 depending on which document you look at.

[kil78]

Damnation Crusade contradicts the Rites of Initiation article from Index Astartes - which I would prefer. My understanding is taht the Secondary Heart and the Biscopea have to be implanted by the age of twelve in order to take properly. The Castigators would want the implants to take properly, so they'd be less likely to reject the organs.

 

 

The Rites of Initiation article from Index Astartes is based on mainline codex chapter, other chapters may have different age/recruitment requirements

[Commissar Molotov]

That's certainly true - and although I didn't state it explicitly, that was what I was saying. It's possible that other Chapters might have other requirements, but I still highly doubt that Chapters will be inducting twenty year-olds. Irregardless, the Castigators are rigorous with their implantation rites, and so they're likely to be as stringent as possible with their recruitment, induction, implantation and evaluation.

[kil78]

well the soul drinkers inducted a guardsman, ,,,,,

 

basically I just think the hard rule of 15 or under is kind of crap, there is probabaly a "best way" but that does not mean it is impossible for other chapters to induct older marines.

 

that said, that has nothing to do with how your chapter recruits,, so sorry for derailing your thread.

[Marshal Rohr]

Well, the Legions would take anyone, Luthor was a grown man (he was augmented though, not implanted). But the other Legions would take older aspirants.

[Codex Grey]

That was during the time of the Heresy, and there has been many debates about wether the Legions could take older recruits due to the lack of superstition back then and better technology. Now, superstition is everywhere, and most Apothecaries don't even know what they are doing. The Castigators would not risk anything other than by the book in the case of recruitment.

 

well the soul drinkers inducted a guardsman

And the soul drinkers are supposedly second founding. I rest my case.

[Marshal Rohr]

That was during the time of the Heresy, and there has been many debates about wether the Legions could take older recruits due to the lack of superstition back then and better technology. Now, superstition is everywhere, and most Apothecaries don't even know what they are doing. The Castigators would not risk anything other than by the book in the case of recruitment.

 

well the soul drinkers inducted a guardsman

And the soul drinkers are supposedly second founding. I rest my case.

 

 

I was just saying it had been done. I cant really remeber to who though....

I completely agree of all the Chapters in the Imperium the Castigators are likely to have some of the most rigorous implantation possible.

[Commissar Molotov]

The problem, of course, is that we run into questions of relative worth. Which source means more? Which is more canon? Ultimately we each have to make our own decisions. I've said before how we each have our 'own' Warhammer 40,000 universe, with our own interpretations and our own understandings. Sometimes they overlap with other peoples' 40k universes, and other times we can be vehemently at odds.

 

Damnation Crusade (though it's written by Abnett, and I usually rate him highly) and the Soul Drinkers series (most people don't rate Counter - and your theories on the Soul Drinkers is another example - some people will believe they're a second founding in 'their' universe, whilst others put their hands over their ears and go "LA LA LA NOT LISTENING!") are, to me, less valid than the Rites of Initiation article.

 

Talking of which, a few quotes that might prove interesting:

 

Each organ serves a specific function as outlined above. Although a Chapter's Apothecaries and surgeons are able to perform the necessary implant operations, they do not necessarily understand the exact functioning of each organ.

 

The processes involved are incredibly ancient. Procedures are handed down from generation to generation, becoming increasingly ritualised and misinterpreted. For these reasons, the efficiency of each organ differs from Chapter to Chapter, depending on the condition of that Chapter's gene-seeds and the degree of debasement of its surgical procedures. In some Chapters, mutation of gene-seed, poor surgical procedure, or inadequate post-operative conditioning, has twisted the functioning of implants. For example, the omophagea gene-seed of the Blood Drinkers has mutated so that all Blood Drinkers have an unnatural craving for blood. In other Chapters individual organs are either useless or absent altogether.

 

Incredible ritualisiation of implantation - it's probably the same in the Castigators, to a degree. The Apothecaries are handed in incredible charge, and they take their position seriously. (Which brings up something interesting, actually - in Brothers of the Snake Priad is capable of removing gene-seed from his brothers - It would likely be the same among the Castigators. Something that's possible without 'Apothecaries as Sergeants'.)

 

These considerations mean that only a small proportion of people can become Space Marines. They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If these tests prove successful, a candidate becomes a neophyte. With the completion of organ implantation and attendant chemical and hypnotic training, the subject becomes an initiate. An initiate receives training before joining the ranks as a full brother. A Marine usually joins the ranks between the ages of 16-18, but such are the hormonal changes induced by the process of creating a Space Marine that recruits are physically fully grown before then. Pressures during wartime may accelerate the process.

 

This quote suggests that a Marine becomes a full Battle Brother by the age of sixteen or eighteen. Interesting, actually, because it would suggest they only spend a relatively short time in the Scout Companies.

 

I don't have most of my sources with me here at university, but I do have Codex: Dark Angels which does mention Luther's "augmentation", but also on Page 18 it simply says: "Warriors must always be chosen when they are still young, before their bodies become too mature to accept the gene-seed which will turn them into Space Marines." Of course, when you're talking about centuries-old Marines, 'young' becomes relative, but it does seem to imply puberty.

[Guest Mordray]

Rather interesting this image I happen to have found a few years ago when I was first researching the 40k universe and the factions found within...

I'm thinking it might be of use in this argument.