Most Powerful GK Build

[HERO]

What's the deal with Venerable dreads as riflemen? Worth it?

 

Nope.

Not a cost effective option.

[BrotherWasted]

yet, walk into a GW store with a black box and they will tell you they rule that Doomfists do in fact double the strength of a Dreadknight.

 

Up to your judge, I suppose, but agreed, horrible wording in the BRB. This is not a codex issue, it is an issue with the rulebook itself - a Codex should not have to explicitly override the rulebook in such detail.

 

All the rulebook needs to state is that a DCCW "doubles the bearer's strength", rather than "the walker's strength".

 

True, but back when the rulebook was written it probably was a valid assumption that a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon would only ever be available on a Dreadnought. All Dreadnoughts are Walkers. Why say bearer, when Walker would probably always be good enough?

 

Because as a rulebook, and knowing that down the track there could be the possibilty of a codex overridng or following the rule, the rule should have been written as unambiguous as possible. People are quick to crucify the Codex writers rather than those that write the rules themselves.

 

This is fundamental game design. You can't just assume something won't be made available to a certain army; especially when that is an explicit purpose of a Codex - to override the rulebook where applicable.

[jimbo1701]

I completely agree that the DCCW rule only doubles strength for walkers, not MCs. Unless it gets FAQd, the only reason I can think for including them is to make it clear that DK CC attacks are counted as nemesis attacks, as the MC profile already makes CC attacks ignores saves.

[Zhukov]

What's the deal with Venerable dreads as riflemen? Worth it?

Yes, as they are really hard to stop from shooting and have a good damage output.

[BrotherWasted]

Venerable Dreadnoughts with a Rifleman loadout is a waste of the benefits of being Venerable. These abilities are better utilised by a closer-range dreadnought who still has their Nemesis Doomfist. You're basically paying an extra 60 points to leave your dread sitting up back where it almost can't get hit - that 60 points could go towards halberds or psycannons on a squad of Grey Knights, whilst still leaving you with a Dreadnought that is pretty much just as effective.

 

In terms of a Rifleman loadout, paying 60pts to get +1BS is total BS.

[The Rose Princes]

also, if you keep Psy-Ri's in the backfield you cannot take advantage of Greater Aegis on your guys going forward... originally i thought they were gonna be a wargear upgrade, but since it comes standard, why the hell not?

 

 

one thing i am happy about is that they got ride of the rule in the main book about MC's only getting 2d6 armor pen when unarmed... if the Dreadknight only got 1d6 because he's using weapons it would have been totally useless!

[BrotherWasted]

Psy-Ri's are still best left at the rear, even with Reinforced Aegis. Their firepower is too precious to put near psykers. On a Venerable Dread though, for sure, get up there with your Assault Cannon + Doomfist and make that Rune Priest make a Jaws attempt at Leadership 6 :P

[Ashe Darke]

yet, walk into a GW store with a black box and they will tell you they rule that Doomfists do in fact double the strength of a Dreadknight.

And yet I've seen the manager of my LGS lie through his teeth and make up stupid house rules in order to try and boost sales. What they say isn't always true and while he is pretty spot on with rules when it comes to gaming, people aren't always the most morally driven beings when it comes to sales.

[Vindicatus]

Can you normally move out of an assault after you've locked yourself in combat without killing or scaring off your opponent? No.

 

But the Callidus allows you to because it's in the codex and allows you to do so.

 

Can you shoot into a combat? No.

 

But the old Vindicare allowed you to because it was in their codex (faq in this case) to do so.

 

Can a normal psyker use multiple powers per turn? No.

 

But the rules for certain Eldar and our Psychic Mastery allows you to because it's in their codices and allows you to do so.

 

Go read the codex, they explain it under the entry of the Nemesis doomfist (something around the lines of amplifying their strength through psychic might alone), since GK Dreads come with a NDF as well.

 

So what, it's going to count for the dreadnought because it's a walker, but not the NDK because it happens to stand a little taller and the weilder isn't a floating half-corpse?

 

The rules in the codex state it counts as a DCCW thus, it doubles the strength of all bearers of said weapon. I don't think it can get any more cut and dry than that.

[The Rose Princes]

no matter how cut and dry your reason, logic and good intentions your argument may be.... oh yes, they will argue against it.

[Zhukov]

Venerable Dreadnoughts with a Rifleman loadout is a waste of the benefits of being Venerable. These abilities are better utilised by a closer-range dreadnought who still has their Nemesis Doomfist. You're basically paying an extra 60 points to leave your dread sitting up back where it almost can't get hit - that 60 points could go towards halberds or psycannons on a squad of Grey Knights, whilst still leaving you with a Dreadnought that is pretty much just as effective.

 

In terms of a Rifleman loadout, paying 60pts to get +1BS is total BS.

This story is BS to be honest. You act now like nobody will ever shoot at long-range Dreadnoughts. Really, wut? Besides, it lets you get more Psyfleman. You don't have the option to add more than 3 regular Psyfleman.

 

So no, you wouldn't take Venerable Dreads for the +1BS, nobody does that. You take it either because you want more than 3 Psyfleman, or you want Dreadknights/Land Raiders/Purg squads in your Heavy slots but still want Psyfleman or you take them because you value the increased defense more than more shots. (2 Venerable Psyfleman ~3 Psyfleman, but I'm not saying you should do this!)

[daismith906]

Heres my rough 1750pts list using what knowledge of the codex ive found on the web

 

I m not planning to be that competative (got a mech guard list for that) just a fun list to play.

 

HQ

Grandmaster (pyscannon, halberd, pysgrenades)

 

Elites

Vindicare

 

Troops

5 TGK, Pyscannon, x4 Halberds, Hammer

5 TGK, Pyscannon, x4 Halberds, Hammer

5 TGK, Pyscannon, x4 Swords, Hammer

5 TGK, Pyscannon, x4 Swords, Hammer

5 TGK, Pyscannon, ??? x4 Halberds, Hammer

 

Heavy

Pys Rifleman Dread

Pys Rifleman Dread

 

If possible maybe squeeze in a libby

 

Roughly around 1750pts DS the TGK

[glsn]

Can you normally move out of an assault after you've locked yourself in combat without killing or scaring off your opponent? No.

 

But the Callidus allows you to because it's in the codex and allows you to do so.

 

Can you shoot into a combat? No.

 

But the old Vindicare allowed you to because it was in their codex (faq in this case) to do so.

 

Can a normal psyker use multiple powers per turn? No.

 

But the rules for certain Eldar and our Psychic Mastery allows you to because it's in their codices and allows you to do so.

 

Go read the codex, they explain it under the entry of the Nemesis doomfist (something around the lines of amplifying their strength through psychic might alone), since GK Dreads come with a NDF as well.

 

So what, it's going to count for the dreadnought because it's a walker, but not the NDK because it happens to stand a little taller and the weilder isn't a floating half-corpse?

 

The rules in the codex state it counts as a DCCW thus, it doubles the strength of all bearers of said weapon. I don't think it can get any more cut and dry than that.

 

Don't become a lawyer. The judge would laugh you out of court. You have established precedent, wherein the codex modifies the BRB's rules. However, those modifications are always explicit. Here we have an implicit example where you would claim that because the codex states that two different units have the same wargear that the wargear in question should effect both the same. The problem lies in that you are comparing the effect of said wargear on a walker as opposed to a monstrous creature, two very different things under the rules, and as such the wargear effects them differently. Does this clarify the situation?

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, getting back on track. :blush:

 

Personally, I feel that Purifiers are the best GK unit in the book. And any 'powerful' GK build will reveolve around them. So how about;

 

HQ: 150

Castellan Crowe

 

HQ: 200

GK GM, Nemesis Daemonhammer, Blind Grenades, Rad Grenades

 

Elite: 315

Paladin x5, Nemesis Halberd x5, Psycannon x2

 

Troop: 186

Keeper of the Flame, Nemesis Halberd

Purifier x4, Nemesis Halberd x2, Psycannon x2

Rhino

 

Troop: 186

Keeper of the Flame, Nemesis Halberd

Purifier x4, Nemesis Halberd x2, Psycannon x2

Rhino

 

Troop: 186

Keeper of the Flame, Nemesis Halberd

Purifier x4, Nemesis Halberd x2, Psycannon x2

Rhino

 

Troop: 186

Keeper of the Flame, Nemesis Halberd

Purifier x4, Nemesis Halberd x2, Psycannon x2

Rhino

 

Troop: 186

Keeper of the Flame, Nemesis Halberd

Purifier x4, Nemesis Halberd x2, Psycannon x2

Rhino

 

Heavy: 135

Dreadnought, Twin-linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition

 

Heavy: 135

Dreadnought, Twin-linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition

 

Heavy: 135

Dreadnought, Twin-linked Autocannon, Twin-Linked Autocannon, Psybolt Ammunition

 

Total: 2,000

[Vindicatus]

Gentlemanloser, quick question

 

Are you planning on running them mech like that? Keeping the Purifiers parked in the rhinos to keep them mobile and firing seems like a bit of a waste considering their combat power up close and personal. It was mentioned before about taking several ten man squads, and then combat-squadding them out; 4xpsycannons as a firebase, and the rest rolling forward in a rhino or a razorback to go say hello to the enemy in a painful way. Personally, I really like that idea, just because that amount of firepower on the field is a bit harrowing to even mass horde armies.

[Vilicate]

I can't help but feel like all GK squads should have a MC'd Daemonhammer on the Justicar/KotF/Terminator Champ. It's like a super fist, with a re-roll against everything.

[Gentlemanloser]

Originally, I liked the combat Squad idea, but 24" range killed it.

 

I feel it's far more 'powerful' to keep them in Rhinos, with the ability to fire 4-8 shots with the Rhino's ability to get them into 24" range, while keeping them safe from Reapers/Plasma/Krak Missiles, or the other death of Power Armour. ^_^

 

Plus, our Rhinos will be able to ignore shaken/stunned results, so it'll be very hard to stop our Psycannons from firing inside them.

 

Purifiers have the additional benefit of being geat in CC, especially in small Squads that would otherise have been overrun by larger CC specialists. Which will help if thier Rhino is popped and they are consequently assaulted.

 

But by all means come up with a 2K list you feel is more powerful! Just for the lulz! This is what this thread is all about!

 

;)

[Vindicatus]

I might just do that when I get home. ^_^ I have some of the points written down at home (had to remember them when I got my peak at the codex so I could do stuff like this ;)) and I'll jot something down and post it when I'm outta work.

[BrotherWasted]

Venerable Dreadnoughts with a Rifleman loadout is a waste of the benefits of being Venerable. These abilities are better utilised by a closer-range dreadnought who still has their Nemesis Doomfist. You're basically paying an extra 60 points to leave your dread sitting up back where it almost can't get hit - that 60 points could go towards halberds or psycannons on a squad of Grey Knights, whilst still leaving you with a Dreadnought that is pretty much just as effective.

 

In terms of a Rifleman loadout, paying 60pts to get +1BS is total BS.

This story is BS to be honest. You act now like nobody will ever shoot at long-range Dreadnoughts. Really, wut? Besides, it lets you get more Psyfleman. You don't have the option to add more than 3 regular Psyfleman.

 

So no, you wouldn't take Venerable Dreads for the +1BS, nobody does that. You take it either because you want more than 3 Psyfleman, or you want Dreadknights/Land Raiders/Purg squads in your Heavy slots but still want Psyfleman or you take them because you value the increased defense more than more shots. (2 Venerable Psyfleman ~3 Psyfleman, but I'm not saying you should do this!)

 

Of course people will shoot at long range dreadnoughts. I didn't say never. But, if I stick my Psyfleman up towards the back corner, you've got more important targets to worry about, like all those Psycannons raining down on you from 24". If you're shooting at my Psyfleman, that's one unit you're not shooting with at my GKSS or Purifiers.

 

But eh, go ahead. Spend those 60points and let them go to waste putting out the same number of shots as a psyfleman dread. A Venerable Rifleman isn't that much more efficient than a normal Rifleman - certainly not to the point where it justifies a 60pt increase. In close combat, Venerables all the way. At range, definitely not.

[monkeyking]

Venerable Dreadnoughts with a Rifleman loadout is a waste of the benefits of being Venerable. These abilities are better utilised by a closer-range dreadnought who still has their Nemesis Doomfist. You're basically paying an extra 60 points to leave your dread sitting up back where it almost can't get hit - that 60 points could go towards halberds or psycannons on a squad of Grey Knights, whilst still leaving you with a Dreadnought that is pretty much just as effective.

 

In terms of a Rifleman loadout, paying 60pts to get +1BS is total BS.

This story is BS to be honest. You act now like nobody will ever shoot at long-range Dreadnoughts. Really, wut? Besides, it lets you get more Psyfleman. You don't have the option to add more than 3 regular Psyfleman.

 

So no, you wouldn't take Venerable Dreads for the +1BS, nobody does that. You take it either because you want more than 3 Psyfleman, or you want Dreadknights/Land Raiders/Purg squads in your Heavy slots but still want Psyfleman or you take them because you value the increased defense more than more shots. (2 Venerable Psyfleman ~3 Psyfleman, but I'm not saying you should do this!)

 

Of course people will shoot at long range dreadnoughts. I didn't say never. But, if I stick my Psyfleman up towards the back corner, you've got more important targets to worry about, like all those Psycannons raining down on you from 24". If you're shooting at my Psyfleman, that's one unit you're not shooting with at my GKSS or Purifiers.

 

But eh, go ahead. Spend those 60points and let them go to waste putting out the same number of shots as a psyfleman dread. A Venerable Rifleman isn't that much more efficient than a normal Rifleman - certainly not to the point where it justifies a 60pt increase. In close combat, Venerables all the way. At range, definitely not.

 

60 points for a Dread that hits on a 2+ and can force a re-roll on all glancing and penetrating hits against it.

 

Given that there are very few AP1 weapons that have a longer range than 24", that means that the majority of the time your chances of destruction drop to 1 in 9, as opposed to the cheaper dreads 1 in 3. Coupled with the fact that it can shake off a glance/stun results will make it that much more effective than a regular dreadnought.

 

For 60pts it's a pretty good deal, actually. I can also see the point of sending them into assault ranges, but its really just a matter of taste I suppose.

[BrotherWasted]

Regular Dreadnoughts can also shake off a glance/stun. The Fortitude psychic power is available to both regular and Venerable Dreadnoughts. Re-rolling the glance or penetrating hit is a gimmick and can easily result in your vehicle being destroyed.

 

I don't see where you got this 1 in 3 number about chances of destruction. A Ven Dread is still AV12 and loses to the same weaponry as a regular Dread.

 

No, I still do not agree that is a good deal. For Ballistic Skill 5, I would want to be kitting the Dread with a weapon that I REALLY want to hit, like a Lascannon or Plasma Cannon. Twin-linked Autocannons pretty much make Ballistic Skill 5 irrelevant due to the re-rolls. It is not worth 60pts just to make slightly increase the chances of getting a hit.

[Valerian]

Can a Mod please cut out the relevant portion of this discussion and port it over to the Official Rules subforum? That would be greatly appreciated.

 

Vindicatus, I'm sure that you are getting about as frustrated trying to convince me, as I am in trying to convince you. I'll give it one more shot and see if I can explain it better.

 

Can you normally move out of an assault after you've locked yourself in combat without killing or scaring off your opponent? No.

 

But the Callidus allows you to because it's in the codex and allows you to do so.

 

Absolutely!

 

Can you shoot into a combat? No.

 

But the old Vindicare allowed you to because it was in their codex (faq in this case) to do so.

 

Right on!

 

Can a normal psyker use multiple powers per turn? No.

 

But the rules for certain Eldar and our Psychic Mastery allows you to because it's in their codices and allows you to do so.

 

You bet!

 

Go read the codex, they explain it under the entry of the Nemesis doomfist (something around the lines of amplifying their strength through psychic might alone), since GK Dreads come with a NDF as well.

 

Hold up! Stop the presses! Where in the Grey Knights codex does it say that a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon doubles the Strength in for close combat attacks for a Monstrous Creature that is wielding it? Please provide a quote.

 

In all of your examples above, you have good illustrations/examples of incidents where various codices provide explicit changes to the standard rules in the BRB. When there is a conflict, the codex over-rides, just like the specific will over-ride the general. However, this does not exist in the Grey Knights codex. Nowhere, does it state, mention, or clarify in any way that a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon in this codex operates differently than for us; therefore you have to go to the BRB to read about what a DCCW does (just like you would go to the BRB to read about what a Force Weapon does). When you go to the BRB you will find that the DCCW doubles the Strength for Walkers (it's even in the Walkers section, on page 73, where all of the rules for Walkers are).

 

Now you've got the Nemesis Doomfist in our codex; both the Dreadnought/Venerable Dreadnought as well as the Nemesis Dreadknight come with one standard. It counts as a DCCW. Does it further clarify what that means somewhere in the Grey Knights codex? No? Are you sure? In that case you have to go to the BRB to find out what the rules for that are, and when you do that you will find that it doesn't say jack about doubling Strength when wielding by anything but a Walker.

 

As stated by another, your line of reasoning is a logical fallacy. Your outcome does not follow from what is known to be fact, but rather is based on an assumption.

 

The rules in the codex state it counts as a DCCW thus, it doubles the strength of all bearers of said weapon. I don't think it can get any more cut and dry than that.

 

Whoa, V, it doesn't say anything about doubling the Strength for all bearers, now does it? You just completely changed the wording to fit your preference.

 

 

Now, all that being said, I am almost certain that the Intent is that it also double the strength for Dreadknights, too. However, with the best of intentions, the designer, Mr. Ward, gets the blame for failing to write the rules in a way that actually achieves this effect. No doubt it will be FAQed at some point, but until then it is up to House Rule to fix it, because the RAW of the matter is that Dreadknights strike at S6 with NDFs.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Valerian

[Valerian]

Regular Dreadnoughts can also shake off a glance/stun. The Fortitude psychic power is available to both regular and Venerable Dreadnoughts. Re-rolling the glance or penetrating hit is a gimmick and can easily result in your vehicle being destroyed.

 

I don't see where you got this 1 in 3 number about chances of destruction. A Ven Dread is still AV12 and loses to the same weaponry as a regular Dread.

 

No, I still do not agree that is a good deal. For Ballistic Skill 5, I would want to be kitting the Dread with a weapon that I REALLY want to hit, like a Lascannon or Plasma Cannon. Twin-linked Autocannons pretty much make Ballistic Skill 5 irrelevant due to the re-rolls. It is not worth 60pts just to make slightly increase the chances of getting a hit.

 

Back to the real topic at hand, I agree with BW here. Being Venerable is nice for a Dread, but our basic Dreads in the Psy-Rifleman configuration will have two big advantages that help decrease the need for Venerable. First, the Twin-linked weapons make the higher BS rather moot. Second, the Fortitude power decreases effect of Stun/Shake results. Sure, Venerable helps preserve your Dread from a more catastrophic effect, but for the extra points, it isn't worth it. Instead of getting 2 Ven Dreads you could just about afford 3 Reg Dreads.

 

V

[monkeyking]

Regular Dreadnoughts can also shake off a glance/stun. The Fortitude psychic power is available to both regular and Venerable Dreadnoughts. Re-rolling the glance or penetrating hit is a gimmick and can easily result in your vehicle being destroyed.

 

I don't see where you got this 1 in 3 number about chances of destruction. A Ven Dread is still AV12 and loses to the same weaponry as a regular Dread.

 

No, I still do not agree that is a good deal. For Ballistic Skill 5, I would want to be kitting the Dread with a weapon that I REALLY want to hit, like a Lascannon or Plasma Cannon. Twin-linked Autocannons pretty much make Ballistic Skill 5 irrelevant due to the re-rolls. It is not worth 60pts just to make slightly increase the chances of getting a hit.

 

 

The Venerable rule for Ven Dreads allows for rolls on the damage chart to be rerolled. A roll of 5-6 is what you need to destroy a vehicle, so normally its a 1 in 3 chance, but Ven player can have it re-rolled if he so chooses. That's how I came to the 1 in 9 chance for a Ven to take a fatal hit. Rolling a 5 or 6 two times in a row is a 1 in 9 chance. And it pretty much renders the chance of losing the guns or mobility on glances to near zero.

 

A higher BS will be important for when your dread finally does lose a gun. Because while a 3+ reroll is good, I find the near certainty a 2+ reroll brings to be even better, especially in the later turns when a guns been stripped off and every shot counts.

[Ashe Darke]

I considered the Venerable Dread but when points are tight enough as it is running the economy Dread seems more viable. I mean thinking to myself how I could chop 180pts out of my list (1500) to make the Dreads Venerable I'd have to either lose my Vindicare and some wargear or lose my camping scoring unit and even more wargear and I don't know if it would be worth it. Fitting 3 scoring units in there was hard enough let alone 2 and now the anti-tank is severely reduced for more slightly more accurate and resilient Dreads.

 

I suppose it comes down to your points limit. In my area we play 1500 so things are tight. 1750 sees a Techmarine added to give the Vindicare a 2+ cover and to fix the Dreads. While he isn't as good as re-rolling pen/glances he does give me Bolster Defences and more resilient Dreads.