Legion Rising

[Subtle Discord]

I started the second Rhino Trim kit along side the Land Raider Armour kit, but the 'Raider kit started coming together so well, it took most of my focus. Truth be told, I was also eager to see if I could pull off such a large piece, since several future ideas hinge on my method for making moulds actually working on this scale. With all of these new parts casting virtually flawless, I have my proof of concept, and much piece of mind.

 

With the 'Raider Armour nearing completion, my very next project is the second Rhino Trim, and photos of that will start turning up very soon. Trim kit #3 is also on the drawing board, but I'm still considering what lines I want to follow, so it has a unique-but-similar look to the first two. It's a fine line to walk between cohesive and variety.

[Subtle Discord]

For the top of Page 11, (I've created such a wonderful monster. The Thread... it lives! It hungers!) I figured I'd take a moment to do a larger update on the Land Raider Armour and Havoc Launcher. Time to get in closer, and have another look. I've mentioned that the moulds for the 'Raider parts were large. To give you an idea of what I mean, have a look...

 

∙ This heavy brick of rubber, the size of the Land Raider itself, is a mould for just one part.

 

Even though the cast piece is not very thick, the depth it has requires lots of height in the mould. To ensure the shape stays true and is not deformed, at least 1cm of rubber is needed on all sides, so this one is rather hefty. Five moulds in total make up the complete kit, thankfully, only two of them are this large.

 

∙ The door panels are in the process of being moulded, but I took a few photos before they got tied up for the next day-or-so.

 

∙ You would think certain shapes would have symmetrical angles on this kit, but they were annoyingly different. The top panels were very annoying to get just right.

 

I had considered a larger ablative (floating) armour plate for the engine, but it's such a great detail on the model, it seemed a shame to obscure it too much. I ended up doing a simple small panel to cover the Loyalist marking.

 

Everything in these photos is all still blu-tacked together, so it's all still a bit loose. Overall the fit is exactly what I was hoping for - very tight, with only a few very minor gaps.

 

∙ Just like priming, making a first cast is almost magic. All those separate bits held together with glue and greenstuff suddenly become a single solid uniform object.

 

∙ Yep, this is the Havoc Launcher I saw in my mind's eye so many months ago. The first one was close, but this one solved several issues.

 

Breaking it down into parts not only helps the parts cast cleaner, but it also leaves me the option of switching the front and back plate. To add some variety in the future I can consider different missile configurations with a simple swap of the plates. I'll definitely try to keep things modular like this in future builds.

 

Edited February 9 by Subtle Discord

[Montuhotep]

Words can hardly suffice to express the sheer epic awesome of this thread and in particular the painstaking work that has gone into each and every detail, subtle though each part may be.

[The_Chaplain]

Absolutely gorgeous Discord, those pieces are magnificent.

[GuitaRasmus]

Absolutely incredible work. I would love one of your kits.

[Dude with a Brush]

Beautiful, is there anything else to be said really :D I can only imagine how hard doing what you do is :)

[AlexCrute]

Beautiful quality on the casts. I bet you can dance and speak spanish too.

[masque]

just a few questions...when you do get around to selling these wondrous creations...where does the line start and who do i have to gut punch to get to them sooner?

[sword brethren]

just a few questions...when you do get around to selling these wondrous creations...where does the line start and who do i have to gut punch to get to them sooner?

 

*punches masque and takes his place in line* EVERYONE FOR THEMSELVES!

 

on a more serious note though, they look amazing, i would happily set cash aside for these.

[Subtle Discord]

Thanks as always for the positive feedback. To make a broad statement about some of the comments; While I find some of my builds challenging, I wouldn't call them hard. Everyone has certain things they just 'click' with, a knack, if you will. This happens to be one of mine. My brain is just well suited for visualizing an idea in a way that I've found is rare, and somehow my hands can usually make it real. It's a wonderful skill to have, but sometimes it would be nice if the 'creative voices in my head' would quiet down, and let me concentrate on my current idea. ^_^

 

Aaand... if anyone is really chomping at the bit, send me a PM and we can talk. Until I get something formal setup (once I have a wider selection complete) I'm happy to talk directly with people who might be interested in my work.

 

That said, if anyone likes what they are seeing, but is also wanting other things that are still being built, just stay tuned to this WIP thread. I plan to document all projects going forward, and most things I will be building are going to be moulded for casting. Once the right selection of items is nearing completion, contact me via PM for more information.

 

This WIP thread might go quite sometimes, damn that silly Life thing, and all it entails. :) But beyond day-to-day things, it is usually because I'm building away and getting ready to show what I've been up to. I tend to work in bursts, churning out things for awhile, before slowing (for whatever reason), and then gearing up again.

 

Also, to anyone who wants to see exactly what I'm trying to work on at any given time, without sifting through the WIP thread, have a look at my Profile Page. I've got a short-list with WIP photos and plans shown there that I will keep updated.

 

Thanks again, everyone, for the interest and encouragement.

[jimmimellows]

Awesome as usual. That land raider trim really is something else. Love your moulds too, that brick sized one is very well done....nice colour too. Really glad to see how symetrical and crisp your castings are coming out. Looks like you managed to sort out your shrinkage issue.

 

Now i know you've designed all of your stuff based on black legion. The question on my lips is when are you doing a World eaters set.

 

In all seriousness, i can see people buying lots of these. I'm tempted myself.

 

As ever, i really look forward to seeing what else you can conjure up. My Worldeaters are grinding to a halt at the min and progress is as ever slow, so its nice to see someone progressing to such a high standard week by week.

 

cheers,

 

Jimmi

[Subtle Discord]

Nice to see you turn up jimmi, and thanks. I figured you were probably being kept busy. I know the feeling only too well.

 

A main key to building great moulds? Lots of plasticine. I loved playing with the stuff as a kid, and now maybe that's helping me to get solid results. I'm starting to get a very good feel for working with it along mould edges. And when it came to casting and shrinkage, it turned out to me a non-issue really. Shrinkage seems to effect a large thick object a bit more than thinner light objects. Since the armour and trim are definitely thin and light, they shrink far less then I was so worried about.

 

As for the designs, I really want to start doing Chaos God and Chaos Chapter specific parts, but then GW IP elephant enters the room. GW can't trademark banding, rivets, armour, arrows, or even the 'Chaos Star' (as long as I don't call it that), but once I do a Khorne rune or a or a World Eaters icon, to name just two of many, well that's another can or worms. I avoid doing a blatant Eye of Horus icon on what I'm building for just this reason.

 

As long as I keep what I'm doing as "Renegade Kit - compatible with Games Workshop^TM model 'X'^TM" I'm free to build as I like, as far as my limited knowledge of copyright and IP goes. I make no claim or ownership to the base models, I just make kits that accent them. Heck, they require the user to buy a GW kit to use them as intended. They should thank me... yeah, yeah, that's it! :) Would that stand up in court? :P

 

I have had two ides on the subject though; 1) Do kits with blank areas and places that are intended for the Cult icons that are already provided by GW. Take my 'Rotten Armour' with no symbols or icons, and add your own Nurgle symbol during assembly. 2) Keep a stock of some things in the, err, 'Back Room' and rarely/never show them publicly.

 

It's good the subject came up really, because I'd like to hear any input people might have. I'd really like to do Cult, Chapter, and God specific things but I want to try and do it on the up-and-up. If you like my work and would like to see it done for your faction, what do you think is the best way?

[MattMatt39]

Very, very impressed with everything you've done. It's inspiring, and no less. My only small qualm is the turbines on your Daemon Prince, not sure about that one, but each to his own. :P

 

Keep up the amazing work mate. :)

[Aqui]

Despite GW stating that they have copyright over it, I'm of the impression that the Chaos Star is not their copyright. As far as I recall Michael Moorcock came up with it. WIkipedia backs this up (and bear in mind that wiki isn't totally accurate about such things - there are a few "citation needed" marks in the entry):

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos

 

Moorcock's eight-arrow symbol of Chaos was subsequently arrogated by GW and became a frequent graphic element in their own Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 games and the related miniature figures.

 

arrogatedpast participle, past tense of ar

Edited July 27, 2012 by Aquilanus

[Subtle Discord]

Quick mini update. Fresh from the pressure pot, the first cast from the last mould of the Land Raider kit...

 

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j332/SubtleDiscord/WIP%20Thread%20Photos/Legion_Raider_12.jpg

 

As for the Chaos Star, I'll need to do more research, but it seems there are uses of it in several cultures and motifs. As long as I can find enough to show it's not something GW 'invented' I won't feel nearly as nervous about that. Ooorr, I wonder if GW would just give me a job? ... Ha! Yeah, right.

[Kierdale]

Very impressive work!

 

If GW does complain you could always claim that your work represents not the Chaos star but rather Morris Air. ;)

[Montuhotep]

And if GW try to claim IP for the Eye of Horus, for further example, tell them to have a word with the Ancient Egyptians. :)

 

They were only using it for 5 thousand years........

[AlexCrute]

Big fat honkin kudos for the tools and techniques blog too. That there is useful information.

[Retributis]

These are incredible. The detail! The sharpness! I genuinely love all of the work you've done, and I don't even collect chaos!

[Boomsly]

i have a question about how you smooth the greenstuff out when used as a "filler" so well?, i can never get it that smooth nor that clean, is it cut when dry? filed? or just applied so well its that smooth when soft?

 

many thanks

[Subtle Discord]

That's one of the things about GW. While they are fierce defenders of their IP, they tend to forget just how much they've... borrowed, from historical, religious, and cultural sources. The Eye of Horus, by name is 'safe', I could do an Egyptian inspired eye, no problem. It's the GW Eye of Horus, the Egyptian eye combined with the arrows of the Chaos Star that I am forced, sadly, to avoid. They invented that icon. I have every intent to do everything I can to 'tread lightly' with my work. I am by no means the only person doing after market kits. As long as I do it with tact, I don't see any problems. But as with all things, time will tell. Who knows, if my work becomes popular enough, maybe I could negotiate a license or 'affiliated studio' status. It's a looong shot, but the world works in weird ways sometimes. While GW has shut down many fan inspired projects, they've also given the green light to some.

 

Now, about Greenstuff and how I work with it. Let me get a few photos so I don't have to reference some older posts...

 

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j332/SubtleDiscord/WIP%20Thread%20Photos/Legion_Predator_13.jpg

 

When I was talking about rivets, I spoke briefly about edge cleanup with this photo, and it ties in with your questions Bloomsly. You're on the right track with your questions, I'll explain how I do it bit more in depth. *Takes a deeeep breath...*

 

Those are the three tools I use most when I do edge cleanup and filler. Sometimes things like razor blades or very tiny flattened pins for really small nooks-and-crannies. The one I use the most of all is the back of the Ruler, to be honest. I have all sorts of sculpting tools, but nothing compares to that re-purposed tool, it's kinda' funny. It is a perfect right angle, very stiff yet thin, totally smooth, and has very hard corners, good for scraping. Try to get something similar, and a Chisel Tip sculpting tool like the one pictured. The Chisel is great for corners and odd places the Ruler can't get to.

 

The beauty of styrene sheet, as many have commented (thanks again), is just how crisp it can be. This works in your favor when you're doing edged cleanup and gap filling. You use the crisp edges to help you. Also remember to use fresh Greenstuff, it has much more 'stick' when it's freshly mixed, and starts to get harder-and-harder to work onto styrene. After about 45 minutes to 1 hour, you'll find it becomes frustrating trying to get it to stick in small gaps and bevels.

 

A major key to these processes (and working with Greenstuff in general) is keeping your tools lubricated. Water, spit, oil, it's all to personal preference, but it is really necessary with styrene gap filling. Smooth plastic is not the optimal surface for trace amounts of Greenstuff to stick to. Your tools must be damp or your work will just peel away with a single press of the tool. Trust me, it happens to me all the time. It's usually repairable, but it reminds you to always make sure it's damp before you touch that surface.

 

For 'Edge Cleanup' I roll a long thin line of Greenstuff. Usually edges just need a trace of GS, so you can usually roll it as thin as you can manage. Carefully take the strip of GS and apply it along the edge - you might want to flatten it a bit before picking it up. With damp fingers and tools, just get it on as best you can, it doesn't have to be centered or even all that straight. Now use the broad flat tool to flatten it down. Don't try to make it perfect in one press, start by working your way all around, pressing it down so it just covers the edge. It will still be far too thick, but you will now keep working it down, bit-by-bit (it's not as slow as it sounds) and excess GS will extrude and squeeze out over the corner of the edge. Let it stay untill you've pressed it down to the even surface you're looking for. The highest points/edges of plastic will start to show, at that point, press very hard and 'rock' the tool ever so slightly. You're attempting to 'cut' all of the GS off, that squeezed over the edge. From there you can scrape off the waste GS along the hard corner.

 

For 'Gap Filling' or beveling corners where plastic sheet meet, the process is similar. Roll a line of Greenstuff, and make it roughly thick enough that it will fill the gap/bevel and still leave you a bit of material to work with. Place the roll of GS along the gap pressing it down to get a bond started, and don't worry if it's bulging, that's good. Start with a light press around, starting the angle you'll be going for. Again, work it down bit-by-bit, until the corners of the plastic give you a hard edge to follow, and let the excess GS squeeze over the edge, getting cut off by the corner. Again, you can 'rock' the tool to help cut the excess GS off along the corner. Scrape the corner to clear away that excess when you've got the GS how you want it. And don't worry too much if you get some trace GS that didn't 'scrape away' as clean as you'd like, you can clean it after it cured in the final step.

 

Usually after this point I will give the work a once over with the rubber tipped Shaping Tool. It's soft enough that it can smooth minor blemishes very carefully. If you've been patient and taken you time you won't have much need for this, but there's always those trick spots that benefit from it.

 

And now for the 'Secret Sauce'... Only take this starting cleanup 90% where you want it. Greenstuff will have a way of 'bulging' at bit at some corners and places. Press it flat at one end, the other bulges up ever-so-slightly. Rather than try to shave the tiny bit that will let you get it just right, let it cure and take it off with a good quality File. This is also the best way to get the GS give you really sharp corners and ridges. Leave a tiny bit of extra material, and do the final shaping and cleanup with a File after it's cured.

 

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j332/SubtleDiscord/From%20the%20Wastes%20Blog%20Photos/GroberFiles1.jpg

http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j332/SubtleDiscord/From%20the%20Wastes%20Blog%20Photos/Top3_Files.jpg

 

Low quality Files will will chew, tear, and even rip up the hard work you've done. I freely admit that I can be a 'tool snob'. Sometimes it's worth spending a little more for top quality, especially for a tool that you will use for years or even decades. My first Grobet File that opened my eyes to the advantages of quality tools is almost 20 years old, and I still use it. Getting just 2-or-3 really good files is worth the investment. I swear by Swiss made Grobet files, and they are a joy to work with. They almost make the mould line removal job enjoyable... almost.

 

These files are so sharp and well crafted that they can carve smoothly into even 'soft' cured Greenstuff. (Read: mixed with extra Yellow for extra flex) With a #2 or #0 cut (coarse) you can chew through material very quickly, and still be able to create smooth surfaces and sharp edges. Move up to a #4 or #6 cut (fine) and these files can still cut and shape a surface with pressure, but with a light hand they will virtually polish any surface - metal, Greenstuff, plastic, resin, milliput, anything. With these files you take off any little bulges and sharpen up the corners and edges of all the gap filling. Give it a final cleanup and a good buffing with a stiff plastic bristle brush for a final polish, and it will be super clean and smooth.

 

If you have any questions about anything specific in that wall-o-text, feel free to ask and I'll try to clarify. :tu:

[Boomsly]

wow, thanks for that, more detailed than i could have ever hoped for. that all makes perfect sense and a bit of practice will go a long way im guessing

 

ill be after some clay shapers anyway as im looking into some greenstuff work and mould making anyways so a set of decent files makes the list, i must admit i have some cheap nasty ones and am in the process of getting better brush's, tools and space to work which always helps things along nicely.

 

top man for that response! :)

[Subtle Discord]

Happy to help. Yes, practice makes perfect. When I first started, I agonized over some details and edges, trying to get them 'just so' in soft Greenstuff, but could never get the edges hard/sharp enough. Especially beside the crisp plastic edges. Then I switched to carving those details with a file, and the light-bulb over my head lit up! It's the same concept as sculpting Greenstuff in layers, so some details can harden before adding more. Sometimes it's better to put something down, and work with it in a cured state. File and shape carefully, and the cured Greenstuff is very forgiving.

 

The rubber 'Shapers' are amazing for working with Greenstuff. Just use them at what they are good for - Less actual sculpting (hard tools are usually better, offering more control) and more for soft blending and smoothing, where a hard tool would be too stiff.

 

They are painfully expensive, for what they are, however. But like most tools, they are an investment, so treat them well and they will last. If you have and trouble finding 'Clay Shapers', have a look for 'Colour Shapers'. I kept trying to find them in the sculpting and ceramics areas of art stores, and could never find them. Then I found them in the painting section, beside the painting knives. Go figure.

[Grimm Blade]

What an amazing thread!

I think that your skill level is SO high that you should be doing this for a living, not just a hobby.

[space wolf]

Here's an interesting thought. Have you ever considered, coming up with a kit to make "true-scaled" vehicles. (It would require some cutting on the part of the owner, but what conversion doesn't?) I know a lot of people think that GW's vehicles are too small as they are; and with the popularity of true-scaling nowadays... Just some food for thought...