Making Noise Marines Scream

[The Nephilim]

No more so than a storm bolter that can change it's firing rate to that of a heavy bolter.

[Forté]

Not really. I'd rather the assault and cost of the Storm Bolter so it always fires at full range. A bolter can at least fire one shot at full range.

[AtlasDM]

I think that an argument can be made for the usefulness of sonic blasters. Just for the sake of making noise marines scream, let’s take a closer look.

First, we have to look at what sonic blasters do well, and that’s firing lots of shots out to 24” while ignoring cover; then we have to examine what sonic blasters don’t do well, and that’s move.

Looking at the strengths and weaknesses of the sonic blaster, we see that it’s a weapon designed to sit in one place to achieve maximum effect. Put your sonic blaster marines behind cover or line of sight blocking terrain to protect them from long range and anti-meq weapons. (Yes, there are long range anti-meq weapons that ignore cover and don’t require direct line of sight but they should be few and if you’re worried about them then you’re more than likely going to have another unit to handle them with.) A good example of where to put your NMs is in a building, in other area terrain, or behind an Aegis Defense Line. Ideal positions will be near the center of the board where you can really maximize your 24” threat bubble, on top of objectives within your deployment zone, or cover that is within a single turn’s running distance of a mid-field objective so you can grab it on your last turn.

So they’re in cover or out of LoS, now what? Simple, DO NOT MOVE if you could be shooting instead, just wait for something to come within 24” of your unit and blast them to pieces. Ideal targets are enemy troops, which typically have high body count and low armor saves (and also because dead troops don’t win games). Salvo gives you three times the volume of fire of the standard chaos marine at 24” so make use of it.

Let’s take a look at some example uses of a unit armed with sonic blasters. Our example unit of NMs will consist of 9 NMs carrying sonic blasters and the champion armed with a simple bolter and parked behind an ADL with a quad gun. This unit is good area denial in any deployment but it really shines in a Hammer and Anvil setup because they can threaten nearly ¾ of the board if placed properly.

So what good can these guys do without moving? How about this:
 

- Enemy infiltrators deployed on a midfield objective? Chances are it’s a small five man squad of scouts or rangers/pathfinders that your enemy hopes to dig in and make you fight to flush them out. Drop 27 cover ignoring shots and 4 more from the quad gun on them and see how long they hold that objective. Space Marine Scouts are going to get shredded even with they’re 4+ armor save just by simple weight of dice. If you make your opponent roll enough saves, eventually some will fail. Compare 27 sonic blaster shots to a unit armed with bolters and a blast master that (keeping point values nearly the same) only fires 8 shots that have to contend with cover saves and a single blast template that might miss completely.

 

- How about an enemy that thinks it’s cute to use outflanking to get in your deployment zone? Outflanking units are usually soft enough to be crushed under weight of fire like infiltrators, making them nearly useless.

 

- In the case of drop pods, your sonic blasters will remind your opponent why the term is “suicide Sterguard.” That same unit is going to force a five man Sternguard squad to take 9-10 armor saves on average. They will fall.

 

- Deepstriking Terminators? Tough, yes, but not invulnerable; on average they will fail 1-3 armor saves so in a pinch you can force them out, but it’s better to have a counter-attack unit in place equipped for TEQ specifically. Sonic Blasters in mass though will still outperform a similarly priced squad relying on a single Blast Master.

 

- Enemy Daemonettes (lol I know…) rushing across the midfield to beat your face? One volley from Sonic Blasters is enough to wipe them off the board before they become a threat.

 

- What if those same face beating Daemonettes are being shielded by another unit, say bikes, as they cross the board? So what; since you can ignore cover they don’t get a cover save for behind another unit. Bubble wrap strategy doesn’t work if the units can’t join each other.

Sure there are things that Sonic Blasters can’t do very well, but if you’re thinking about parking a blob of Power Armor on an objective or in your back-field I think Sonic Blasters are worth looking at. The important thing is to remember to make use of LoS blocking terrain (or even Rhinos), don’t forget to find a cover save to use when they bring out the AP 2-3 guns, and take Sonic Blasters in large groups for both weight of dice when attacking as well as having lots of wounds your enemy has to deliver to remove you from the board.

Will I always use Sonic Blasters? No, and neither should you, but I do think it’s worth the time to have a couple lists that include them just for versatility. If you can keep your NMs safe and your enemy distracted early in the game, they’ll be worn down and stranded in the midfield, unable to take objectives late in the game.

 

[Bonzi]

Blastmaster squads already provide most of the same bennefits as you have listed for Sonic Blaster squads and do it as well or better in many cases.  

 

Costing a blastmaster squad vs a sonic blaster squad equally is disingenuous if you are going for larger units.  Blastmasters ideal points efficiency is at MSU level while Blasters are ideal in mass but whose average efficiency remains the same per model.  Adding bolter bodies adds cost to the blastmaster unit without increasing efficiency and thus makes the blasters erroneously look better when in similarly costed large unit.  A more direct cost comparison is a MSU blastmaster squad comparing to 6 Noisemarines with 5 Sonic Blasters.  In this case the Sonic Blaster squad only puts out 12 more bolter rounds at 12-24" resulting in 1.3 more MEQ bolter kills than the Blastmaster squad.  At BS 4 a blastmaster will scatter an average of 2-3 inches and if you hit only 2 models your kill average is equal to the Blasters, if you hit 3 it is better.  Inside 12" and the bolter shots disparity between the units narrows even more.  Outside of 24" and the game is entirely in favor of blastmasters. 

 

Now compare the Sonic Blasters to available bolters.  Same squad as we compared to blastmasters (6 Noise Marines, 5 sonic blasters) vs 9 basic Chaos Marines with bolters.  At 24 to 30" the Chaos Marines hold a 9 shot advantage (able to move and shoot gives .98 MEQ kill advantage).  At 18 to 24" the blaster squad only has a 7 shot advantage (.76 MEQ kill advantage).  Inside of 1" to 18" the Chaos Marines can achieve a 2 shot advantage because they can move and double tap (statistically insignificant advantage).  Thus we see the blasters being only marginally more effective in a tiny 6" window and comparable or worse than bolters at all other ranges in terms of MEQ killing effectiveness.

 

What can sonic blasters really do better?

 

#1.  Sonic Blasters are better at wound saturation vs 2+ or invulnerable saves in a 6" window as long as they are stationary (see bolter comparison above).

 

#2.  Sonic Blasters are death on a cracker vs armies that rely on cover or have a 5+ or worse save.  Ideal targets would include Daemon troops, IG blobs, Eldar, Nid troops, and Orks.  Of course Daemon troops get their save no matter what so again the advantage window over bolters is only 6".  IG does most of its killing from 48"+ range and inside of armor so that's not a great advantage.  Eldar have rending, superior range, superior tanks, and better mobility so the advantage is really limited there.  Nid gaunts a genstealers will need to enter into your 12-24" envelope to get you so that is a clear advantage to the blaster.  Orks will die in droves as well and no custom force field can stop you!

 

The picture emerging is that sonic blasters give advantage against limited opponents or in a very very small 6" window but they do it at the cost of mobility which in most games gives the nod to the units that can move or have better range.

 

What can make sonic blasters better?

 

#1.  Infiltration.  Putting these guys in the middle of the board or closest to a primary objective will make this unit shine.  They need to start the game where they want to be or they will always lose out in comparison to mobile bolters or stationary blastmasters with better range.  This means you need Huron and if you take him you really should have at least two squads ready to take advantage of infiltration.   Two squads of 10 Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters deploying in the cover midfield instantly puts the advantage in your court.

 

#2.  A Sorc.  Getting the +1 st to sonic weapons in the Slaanesh lore takes blasters from drab to fab.  Or going for Biomancy to get the unit FnP and Relentless will make the unit brutal as well.  Relentless + Salvo = win.

 

 

The reality is that Sonic Blasters are a great weapon that is slightly over costed or underpowered.  Make them a 1pt upgrade -or-  give them 6" of extra range -or- more reliable ways to get them in range and then they are golden.  Until then Sonic Blasters require the army to be built around them to be effective and they are too limited in utility to really justify that.

[AtlasDM]

Costing a blastmaster squad vs a sonic blaster squad equally is disingenuous if you are going for larger units. Blastmasters ideal points efficiency is at MSU level while Blasters are ideal in mass but whose average efficiency remains the same per model. Adding bolter bodies adds cost to the blastmaster unit without increasing efficiency and thus makes the blasters erroneously look better when in similarly costed large unit.

That's precisely the point. Larger than a five man squad, a sonic blaster equipped unit will outperform a similarly priced unit with a sonic blaster. For the same price you can have more shots and more wounds. Units have to be looked at by total cost, not total model count, because WH40k is built around a point system, that's just how the game is balanced.

If only a single FoC slot is being used then sonic blaster do outpace the blastmaster as unit size gets larger solely because of the limitation on the number of blastmasters a unit can take and the body count requirement.

There's nothing erroneous about the comparison. It's mathematical fact that if the two units are both firing at the same target at the same range without moving the sonic blasters are the better choice.

Now compare the Sonic Blasters to available bolters. Same squad as we compared to blastmasters (6 Noise Marines, 5 sonic blasters) vs 9 basic Chaos Marines with bolters. At 24 to 30" the Chaos Marines hold a 9 shot advantage (able to move and shoot gives .98 MEQ kill advantage). At 18 to 24" the blaster squad only has a 7 shot advantage (.76 MEQ kill advantage). Inside of 1" to 18" the Chaos Marines can achieve a 2 shot advantage because they can move and double tap (statistically insignificant advantage). Thus we see the blasters being only marginally more effective in a tiny 6" window and comparable or worse than bolters at all other ranges in terms of MEQ killing effectiveness.

In this example you're comparing two different units, so it's a little misleading since we're discussing Noise Marines. The sonic blasters appear to be only 'marginally more effective in a tiny 6" window' because using standard chaos marines instead of noise marines allows the numbers to be inflated and it allows the unit to move. Changing variables is no way to make accurate comparisons.

As I said, sonic blasters are meant to be parked and not moved so if I'm going to sit on an objective behind cover and not move what incentive would I have to equip my noise marines with bolters instead of sonic blasters? Or if deciding against standard marines or noise marines, what incentive do I have to take standard marines if they still aren't going to be moved? The point I'm getting at is this: if you're going to camp an objective or stationary firing position sonic blasters are the way to go. Point for point they're more effective.

I can't argue that sonic blasters are better than bolters on the move because they aren't. They lose half their range, which IMO sucks hard, but it's something that can be overcome by shifting play style. If I need an OFFENSIVE unit to grab objectives that are in my opponents deployment zone or deep midfield I will want a more mobile choice, but playing DEFENSIVELY in my own DZ or close midfield sonic blasters are going to outshine bolters and blastmasters and that's what I want. I don't think it's hard to see how useful sonic blasters really are.

With that said, I don't want this thread to turn in to a huge argument about sonic blasters vs blastmasters. I think anyone reading this many pages in to the discussion can see that sonic blasters are better suited to defense while blast masters are better suited to offense so there's really no point comparing apples and oranges unless we're deciding what to pack our kids for lunch.

What can make sonic blasters better?

#1. Infiltration. Putting these guys in the middle of the board or closest to a primary objective will make this unit shine. They need to start the game where they want to be or they will always lose out in comparison to mobile bolters or stationary blastmasters with better range. This means you need Huron and if you take him you really should have at least two squads ready to take advantage of infiltration. Two squads of 10 Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters deploying in the cover midfield instantly puts the advantage in your court.

#2. A Sorc. Getting the +1 st to sonic weapons in the Slaanesh lore takes blasters from drab to fab. Or going for Biomancy to get the unit FnP and Relentless will make the unit brutal as well. Relentless + Salvo = win.

Great points! I actually didn't even think about psykers and warlord traits when I was thinking about sonic blasters yesterday.

Infiltrating a unit of sonic blasters to start off on an objective would be a great way to use a big unit of noise marines. From the center of the board they could not only hold the objective but clear deeper objectives in your enemy's DZ. That likely makes Master of Deception the best warlord trait on the table for noise marines and if you didn't want to chance rolling on the table, you could take Huron but your noise marines would all be elite instead of troop choices which sucks. Also since daemons are battle-brothers you could infiltrate your daemonettes 18" away from a target and charge them on your first turn. Or infiltrate obliterators/havocs/chosen and get line of sight on a priority target.

A sorcerer would really beef up your noise marines and if you only had mastery level 1 then you have a fair chance of getting Symphony of Pain since you would get to reroll 5-6. Even if you didn't get it, the other powers aren't that bad either. As for biomancy, I would be tempted to take extra psyker levels just to get the power I wanted so I'm not sure if it's worth it. I might actually consider doing a Slaanesh themed Sorceress model though just for kicks.

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

@ Bonzi: OMG, did you just use "from drab to fab" in a post? LOL, but then again we're the guys who wear pink armor (or armour if you prefer) so why shouldn't we talk about our signature weapons like we were on a reality makeover show. ("And today, Fabulous Bill will show you how to take your Mark VII plate from drab to fab, by accessorizing it with the flayed faces of your foes!")

[Wanderingblade]

On the subject of infiltrating Noise Marines - you could take Huron and a Lord of Slaanesh right? Lord makes them troops, Huron acts as Warlord. Alternately and even more expensively, there's Cypher.

 

Also, I tried out a slightly revised version of the two Vindicator list Bonzi posted. Stupidly tweaked out a lot of the anti-tank stuff, which cost me the win along with not taking all three Obliterators. One fringe benefit of the Vindicators is that my opponent clumped up more than he should have done to make cover, which helped the Blastmasters. In retrospect though, not sure I could rely on that from every opponent and I'd probably look for AP2 from an infantry based source, although it was a huge amount of fun.

[AtlasDM]

On the subject of infiltrating Noise Marines - you could take Huron and a Lord of Slaanesh right? Lord makes them troops, Huron acts as Warlord. Alternately and even more expensively, there's Cypher.

 

Also, I tried out a slightly revised version of the two Vindicator list Bonzi posted. Stupidly tweaked out a lot of the anti-tank stuff, which cost me the win along with not taking all three Obliterators. One fringe benefit of the Vindicators is that my opponent clumped up more than he should have done to make cover, which helped the Blastmasters. In retrospect though, not sure I could rely on that from every opponent and I'd probably look for AP2 from an infantry based source, although it was a huge amount of fun.

 

I imagine a list coule be made around inflitrating Noise Marines but if I took two HQ choices I wouldn't upgrade the Lord further than the MoS. As for Cypher though, leave him at home because he can only grant infiltrate to his formation of Chosen.

[Wanderingblade]

Cypher himself as infiltrate and can pass that on to any squad he joins.

[AtlasDM]

Cypher can grant infiltrate to a group of Noise Marines but it's useless for him to do so.

BRB page 39 says, "An independent character can begin the game already with a unit either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined."

BRB page 38 says. "Units that contain at least one model with [infiltrate] are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed."

Cypher cannot be deployed in unit coherency with Noise Marines unless the marines are already on the board, which means they do not benefit from infiltrate because they cannot be deployed as normal and they deployed again using infiltrate. Thus the only method for Cypher to give the Noise Marines infiltrate is for them to be held in reserve, in which case they cannot deploy as infiltrators but instead outflank.

[agpen]

This is a great thread, but there's one issue I need to point out: as far as I know your lord can't have both a bike and a sigil of corruption as csm wargear categories are all one-ofs.  AoDG is the best you can do for an invul.

[Forté]

This is a great thread, but there's one issue I need to point out: as far as I know your lord can't have both a bike and a sigil of corruption as csm wargear categories are all one-ofs. AoDG is the best you can do for an invul.

'One of each' as stated in the codex. One bike and one sigil is legal. Two bikes on one model isn't.

[agpen]

See, I saw the "each" in there but two bikes or grenades on one character didn't make any sense, so I assumed it was meant to be read the other way.  Interesting, opens up a lot more possibilities.

[Xenith]

See, I saw the "each" in there but two bikes or grenades on one character didn't make any sense, so I assumed it was meant to be read the other way.  Interesting, opens up a lot more possibilities.

 

Exactly, it doesn't make sense, but they need to put that in there to stop people abusing inconcise wording and taking 3 bikes for +3 toughness and 3 hammer of wrath attacks.

[AtlasDM]

Not gonna lie, Doomrider would look pretty cool standing on two bikes at once.

[Forté]

Not gonna lie, Doomrider would look pretty cool standing on two bikes at once.

Doesn't mean you can't build it.

[Ammonius]

Glad to see this thread still going!

 

I just had a thought (I know, I know):

Put a unit of Noise Marines with sonic blasters in a Bunker/ Redoubt to allow them be more safely deployed closer to the middle of the board with some protection, the "wide firing point" lets multiple sonic blasters shoot at once, and because it's sonic blasters, the enemy won't get cover saves as they advance into any tanglewire/barricades/tank traps that you may have placed in front of said Bunker/ Redoubt.

 

Sure it's just another sliver added to a narrow slice of optimal usage, but I hadn't seen it written anywhere, so here we are.

[hushrong]

Bunkers with sonic weapons!? We shall codename that: Doombox of Boom...or boombox...or something stereo related.

 

Anyways, I haven't picked up quite a few of the last GW books to come out, including stronghold assault. I wonder if anything else could lend itself well to our legion.

 

The list I play is mostly shooty. A core of 3 blastmaster squads for troops at least and usually a few things that can fire lascannon in my heavy slots (oblits or pred annhilator). Having a fortress that can provide higher ground is always welcomed for me. However, I wonder if there are any other benefits from strongholds that I am grossly unaware of. And if they are or are not worth it.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

Not gonna lie, Doomrider would look pretty cool standing on two bikes at once.

Doesn't mean you can't build it.

dont tempt me fiend!!!!

[diabloelmo]

Been a while since I've played my Night Lords - constantly getting shredded kind of pushed me away from 40k for a while. But now, I'm back, and I'm planning on running the sons of Curze as Noise Marines. It was an idea that I had knocking around my head a while ago, but I think I shall now actually do it. 

 

Fluff-wise, the warband has focused so heavily on the thrill of the hunt that they have slowly developed a mild form of psychic vampirism - they can actually "taste" fear, and it is tasty. The Warp has done far crazier things, after all. Sonic weapons are handwaved as being the screams of their victims, laced with warp energy and weaponized. They may be often looked down on by the rest of their legion by being "unpure", but you can't argue with results...

 

I'll be building to 1850pts, as that is the standard game size played locally.

 

currently, I am looking at:

 

Lord on bike w/ black mace, sigil, MoS 

 

10-man NM squad w/ claw, meltabombs and siren, squad armed with bolters, bp and ccw, bundled into a rhino with dirge caster and havoc launcher 

 

4x 6-man NM squads w/ power weapon, blastmaster, bolters, bp and ccw 

 

20-man cultist blob

 

7-man bike squad w/ power maul and meltabombs, 2x melta, icon of Excess, MoS

 

Heldrake w/ Baleflamer

 

Tri-las predator

 

2 obliterators

 

Now, I know the BM squads don't really NEED the power weapon or the extra ccws, but I figure the latter choice is only 5pts a squad to double the number of attacks they will put out when charged, which is chump change for that effect. The power weapon is somewhat harder to justify, but it turns the champion into the proper challenge machine that he is supposed to be and really makes an opponent leery of simply throwing anything short of a dedicated assault unit at them.

[Bonzi]

I'd drop the x4 power weapons and maybe drop one MSU blastmaster squad to mount a second Siren NM beatstick squad in a Rhino.  That will improve your ability to take objectives and tarpit assault units headed for your blastmaster squads.  Some flamers in your cultist blob wouldn't hurt either.

[King Jackal]

What about endurance'd sonic blaster squad? What if that same squad is shooting at something with the effects of symphony of pain

[Leif Bearclaw]

That would be good, but if you don't get the right powers then it's a waste of points, you can't rely on getting any specific power in 6th unless it's the Primaris, which neither endurance or Symphony are. It really makes me sad tht GW doens't seem to have realised yet that Salvo is a terrible rule...

[King Jackal]

That would be good, but if you don't get the right powers then it's a waste of points, you can't rely on getting any specific power in 6th unless it's the Primaris, which neither endurance or Symphony are. It really makes me sad tht GW doens't seem to have realised yet that Salvo is a terrible rule...

Definitely. How about trying to stack the odds

 

As a basic skeleton I was thinking:

 

Sorcerer - Mark of Slaanesh, Steed, Mastery Level 3

Sorcerer - Mark of Slaanesh, Steed, Mastery Level 3

20 Noise Marines - 15 Sonic Blasters, 4 Blast Masters or 19 Sonic Blasters, Icon of Excess

10 Cultists

10 Cultists

10 Cultists

 

Sorcerer - Mastery Level 3, Balestar of Mannon

10 Cultists

 

Edit- the more I think about it, the more a Tzeentch Herald and 20 Horrors fits better as an ally

 

Now bare with me, I know I don't have the noise marines unlocked as troops, but I think it's worth the trade off to get the additional 3 mastery levels. Now if we could just get some 'split fire' from somewhere.

 

How would you fill the rest in?

[Forté]

That's a huge point sink for one squad.