[HH1.0] Night Lords Tactics

[LtDan]

I planning a 8 man chainblade as my third unit. Just for looks cool. I don't care about effectiveness lol

[SkimaskMohawk]

Problem is you need the third unit anyway, so it's more of a question do you arm them with heavy chainblades or stick to volkite. Contemptor or whatever is not really relevant since it's not an option.

 

?

 

Have 3 infiltrating terror squads, use the dreadclaw for the contemptor. It is an option, a very good one, and completely relevant. 

[Count Douclar]

My question was reguarding if it was better to just go with 3 volkite or have 2 volkite and 1 heavy chainsword.

 

But I think I will go with the latter, for theme and rule of cool (making the chainsword squad out of mk3 from prospero) and because I only have 20 volkites :P.

 

I do see the value of having a cortius in a dreadclaw and I will have a leviathan in a dread droppod if that is any consolation.

 

My army will probably look like jump pack praetor, 10 raptors, 3 terror squads (2 infiltrating volkite, one dreadclaw close combat), a leviathan in a pod and probably a cortius dread, some termies and apoths. I was also considering a master of seige in termy armour for phosphex bombs on deep strike (but destroyer squad might be better)

[helterskelter]

While destroyer squads may function better in an NL army than others, I'd stick with your siege breaker option. Consider the damocles rhino as an option to get your secondary deepstrikes in more to your liking.

[Withershadow]

 

Problem is you need the third unit anyway, so it's more of a question do you arm them with heavy chainblades or stick to volkite. Contemptor or whatever is not really relevant since it's not an option.

 

?

 

Have 3 infiltrating terror squads, use the dreadclaw for the contemptor. It is an option, a very good one, and completely relevant. 

 

Infiltrating marines out of transports is madness, but to each his own.  Wasting dreadclaw points for a Contemptor is also madness, but again to each his own.  It is an option, a silly one, and I guess only tangentially related to the point of whether it's better to have 3 volkite squads or 2 volkites and 1 chain. So... I guess bully for you or something? I don't know, lol. :P

[SkimaskMohawk]

Using dreadclaws for terrors in the first place is bad...maybe explain why every thing I claim is madness so we can have a discussion instead of a snipe fest

[lanceqi]

Well IMHO a contemptor with dreadnought pod deepstrikes with the terror squads sounds good to me. Place him near whatever vehicles and drives the enemy's attention away from your relatively vulnerable terror squads. But to me I will probably go for a pride list and take veterans instead.

[Withershadow]

I didn't say use dreadclaws for volkite squads but if you're going to make a melee chain squad, that's a good choice.

 

Infiltrating troops outside of transports are incredibly vulnerable. If you don't get first turn, they evaporate to all the many Marine killing templates and blasts found on the tabletop. They are also relatively short ranged, so if your opponent has augury scanners or other shenanigans to keep your infiltrating deployment at bay (or terrain is simply not favorable), you end up shuffling across the field while dying.

 

A pod delivers a snooty squad pretty much where it needs to go, with only Occularis-heavy Mechanicum threatening interceptor fire with marine killing stuff (the typical Legion Deredeo is good against the pod but middling against the contents compared to a phosphex barrage or scorpius).

 

A dreadclaw for a contemptors is 50 points more and works less well for what you want to do. Dreadnoughts in pods are meant to be distractions, and the shrouding and mass helps mitigate return fire. You also get to shoot immediately and be right in a position to threaten the core of their army. Although frankly this works better with Leviathans. Contemptors Prime are overpriced while Cortus I've found I prefer to footslog or outflank with since I prefer running them in packs.

 

Not sure why you are taking such a confrontational tone, no one is sniping at you, I'm just incredulous at said tone.

[Slips]

But...Dreadnought Drop Pods are 100 Points now so its a 15 point difference.

[Withershadow]

Derp, brain fart. And it was 35 before the changes do not sure where 50 came from. I cut and pasted the comments around a bit, maybe price difference between Prime and Cortus?

 

Anyway, ablative HP, distraction, return fire mitigation, alpha strike with grav, dedicated transport vs FA slot, 15 :P points savings, still better. Also forces opponent to deal with it immediately rather than next turn. With a dreadclaw you either land close and risk being destroyed in melee and unable to disembark, or you land at a distance and hope they don't crash it forcing you to walk and defeating the purpose of the pod.

 

Granted, the last point applies to any melee unit you may stick in there, but I feel a lot better about a dreadclaw full of scoring badasses jinking behind a a dreadnought pod for a 2++ while an annoying dreadnought is dropping graviton templates in their face as a distraction... as opposed to a lonely dreadclaw with a dreadnought sipping tea inside, while the aforementioned scoring badasses get shredded on the ground. Terror squads will do the dying while the Contemptors just do the flying!

[SkimaskMohawk]

I didn't say use dreadclaws for volkite squads but if you're going to make a melee chain squad, that's a good choice.

 

Infiltrating troops outside of transports are incredibly vulnerable. If you don't get first turn, they evaporate to all the many Marine killing templates and blasts found on the tabletop. They are also relatively short ranged, so if your opponent has augury scanners or other shenanigans to keep your infiltrating deployment at bay (or terrain is simply not favorable), you end up shuffling across the field while dying.

 

A pod delivers a snooty squad pretty much where it needs to go, with only Occularis-heavy Mechanicum threatening interceptor fire with marine killing stuff (the typical Legion Deredeo is good against the pod but middling against the contents compared to a phosphex barrage or scorpius).

 

A dreadclaw for a contemptors is 50 points more and works less well for what you want to do. Dreadnoughts in pods are meant to be distractions, and the shrouding and mass helps mitigate return fire. You also get to shoot immediately and be right in a position to threaten the core of their army. Although frankly this works better with Leviathans. Contemptors Prime are overpriced while Cortus I've found I prefer to footslog or outflank with since I prefer running them in packs.

 

Not sure why you are taking such a confrontational tone, no one is sniping at you, I'm just incredulous at said tone.

 

The thing is, drop pods really don't achieve anything other than getting you in range with volkites. They're just as vulnerable once on the field and won't be killing the units that will take them out. Unless taken as DPA filler, there's really no reason to take pods for terror squads; they should be infiltrating out of sight onto far away objectives, in normal reserve or outflanking. Volkites are nice for shooting and can do some good damage, but TS are not short range alpha strike units by any means.

 

Dreads are often giant distractions, I agree. But they're distractions because they put pressure on the enemy's back line. A dreadclaw with dread is a lot pf pressure, one that you can use to force bad decisions from an opponent.

 

 

Derp, brain fart. And it was 35 before the changes do not sure where 50 came from. I cut and pasted the comments around a bit, maybe price difference between Prime and Cortus?

 

Anyway, ablative HP, distraction, return fire mitigation, alpha strike with grav, dedicated transport vs FA slot, 15 points savings, still better. Also forces opponent to deal with it immediately rather than next turn. With a dreadclaw you either land close and risk being destroyed in melee and unable to disembark, or you land at a distance and hope they don't crash it forcing you to walk and defeating the purpose of the pod.

 

Not sure who's destroying a dreadclaw with enough dudes to bubble wrap it and kill the dread inside it. Or why the controlling player would deploy it close enough to a unit capable of one shotting a vehicle while its carrying a vehicle. Seems like asking for trouble with a misplay like that. Optimal play would not have you putting a claw so close as to be bubble wrapped by guys who can kill it one go, forcing your opponent to split his resources to deal with a claw about to hit his lines the next turn.

 

Two grav templates is almost quaint as an alpha strike compared to what we have now, also ignoring how Dreads can be targeted while in dreadpods now. Other than shooting coming in and out of the two pods, proper use of both has a very threatening turn two for you 

 

 

 

Granted, the last point applies to any melee unit you may stick in there, but I feel a lot better about a dreadclaw full of scoring badasses jinking behind a a dreadnought pod for a 2++ while an annoying dreadnought is dropping graviton templates in their face as a distraction... as opposed to a lonely dreadclaw with a dreadnought sipping tea inside, while the aforementioned scoring badasses get shredded on the ground. Terror squads will do the dying while the Contemptors just do the flying!

 

Where is the Leviathan coming from? Do I get one too? This was for me, all about putting a decent anti infantry unit in a claw as opposed to something more threatening like a contemptor. Refer to above for optimal use of scoring units and dreadpods.

 

Big ol TLDR: I think we can all agree that landing pods in our opponents face while our close range guys rumble closer is one of the better strategies. Don't waste your scoring troops if you can and try not to screw up using the dreadclaw which is easier said than done tbh

[Withershadow]

I covered the pros and cons of various deployment options for the dreadclaw. They key point is a DDP delivers the dreadnought to exert pressure immediately in their face, not a subsequent turn, and is a lot less vulnerable to being killed in the pod or stranded far from the action.

 

And surely you see the difference between a vulnerable squad starting the game in the open potentially on your opponent's turn (and with few likely targets available if your opponent is like me and brings transports for his infantry), vs the same squad deploying alongside a LOS-blocking object, pretty much where you want them, lined up against their chosen target.

 

I don't want all my scoring anti-Infantry units in the game for the first turn or two. The pods can facilitate a first wave of dreadnoughts to kill the heavy guns and transports, and then the choom can arrive to eat the juicy center.

 

Your scenario seems ideal to me. I focus all my fire on your exposed troops and ignore the dreadnought in dreadclaw. Let it kill the one vehicle it targets next turn, then you can deal with it in due time (especially if it's a Cortus). Because at this point all your scoring and infantry-shredding units are dead and you have zero paths to victory.

 

If Lords got shrouded instead of 5+ save first turn, it would be different, because you'd basically be guaranteed a 2+ cover save all around. 4+ is not enough.

 

Different approaches I guess. If I want to outflank stuff, I'll play Sacrificial Offering.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Withershadow

[SkimaskMohawk]

Why would anyone put terror marines in the open to be shot at? Why are vehicles the only target for the dread? Why do I apparently never have anything more than 3 terror squads (that I've misdeployed) and 1 dread (that I've also misdeployed) for a hypothetical turn 1, but opponents have a full army and you get more units in your comparisons? 

 

Claws have a 3+ cover save, as do DDPs, so they're both the same difficulty to kill; once the DDP is gone, there's no more shroud for the dread and he's easy pickings.

[Withershadow]

I already addressed all your points several times. But please continue to get all incensed and upset and propping up strawmen, there is no discussing with you when you apparently don't read responses and just fly off the handle. Have a good one.

[helterskelter]

You seem to forget people can take augury scanners and fury of the legion. Whos dice might like them more than theirs like you.

 

Very risky business dropping troops in enemy lines. It's like people forgetting to take armoured ceramite thanks to that self perpetuating myth. Stuff with augurs and interceptor will give you a horrible day.

Such is the joy of terror assault. The most cause for concern there are typhon. Evil, nasty, cheap typhon. And if a board has proper cover there's really no problem footslogging terror squad and friends. Especially during night fight which let's face is most of the time is 2 turns in the main, and even if it's just T1 that's your chaps with the bonus to cover saves, which I'd rather have vs 1 squad, than dropped in the middle of an army who could tear them to pieces with dice.

Pods do give an advantage with getting behind lines, however so do deepstriking terminators.

We all play how we want to at the end of the day, no need for us to get a snippy with each other with our own preferred tactics. We need to look at all the advantages and disadvantages not just one side.

[Withershadow]

You cannot fury of the legion with interceptor fire as it happens at the end of the movement phase unless I'm really missing something.

[helterskelter]

I wasn't saying you could.

It's something to watch out for.

More dice = more problems. Especially when your opponent takes tac blobs which your pod could divert into.

I take it you'd have plenty of forward nuncio if podding is your favoured tactic?

[Withershadow]

If I'm podding I'll use a Damocles or FL on bike leading outriders.

 

@Skimask, based on your posts in other threads, your judgement on the value of outflanking and walking units isn't as generally applicable as you imply, given the homegrown meta you play in. If I could pick warlord traits and take relics and assault out of deep strike and flanks, I'd be all over foot slogging Terror Squads and dreads in dreadclaws too. But I play 30K Age of Darkness, so my opinions are colored by my experiences playing a different ruleset. Now I see where our disagreement stems from, no harm no foul. We can all be friends now. :)

Edited January 3, 2017 by Withershadow

[SkimaskMohawk]

My arguments with using footslogging terror marines stem from using line of sight to not be shot off the board, or some form of reserve if there's a lot of barrage. Objective location plays a big part in that; objectives on the edges of the table tend to have throwaway units or no units on them, of course I'd outflank a terror squad to claim those and force an answer. Their close range shooting is good enough in those cases.

 

House rules never factor into any of my discussions on forums. If anything, I'd say I over estimate the amount and type of terrain people use. 25% board coverage with LoS blockers in the middle is very different than a ruin in each corner with maybe a forest somewhere 

[lanceqi]

I think there is a way to settle the argument: Using your own army build and tactics to have a real game. Practice is the sole criterion for testing the truth after all :P

[lanceqi]

So dear brothers, I cannot get my hand on Sev's rules and due to the Chinese home-cooked version of the translation I cannot be certain about his master of ambush(can't remember exactly) rule. Does it allow you to infiltrate or gain AS instead?

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Friendly outflanking units gain AS.

 

They should really rename his warlord trait.

[lanceqi]

T T

Well that is a real bummer...

[Black_out]

It still aggravates me the "master of ambush" can't even infiltrate to launch a surprise attack...ugh

[lanceqi]

It still aggravates me the "master of ambush" can't even infiltrate to launch a surprise attack...ugh

Maybe that pair of bat wing on his helmet is too high to hide :P