Dam13n Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 My local club is starting a HH campaign which is due to run (rather slowly) over the next 2 years. I've chosen Death Guard (largely because the Grave Wardens and Typhon look awesome). - - - - - 1st Draft of the List I would like to work towards: Death Guard Legion 2000pts Headquarters: 457pts Legion Praetor - 157pts - Cataphractii Terminator Armour, Combi-flamer, Chainfist - Rite of War: Pride of the Legion Legion Centurion - 120pts - Cataphractii Terminator Armour, Combi-bolter, Needle Pistol, Power Sword - Consul: Primus Medicae Legion Command Squad - 180pts - Standard Bearer and 2 Chosen - Cataphractii Terminator Armour, 1 Heavy Flamer, 3 Lightning Claws, Grenade Harness Elites: 65pts Legion Rapier Carrier - 65pts - Laser Destroyer Array Troops: 603pts Legion Terminator Squad - 204pts - Sergeant and 4 Terminators - Cataphractii Terminator Armour, 1 Plasma Blaster, 2 Combi-plasmas, 5 Power Weapons Legion Terminator Squad - 204pts - Sergeant and 4 Terminators - Cataphractii Terminator Armour, 1 Plasma Blaster, 2 Combi-plasmas, 5 Power Weapons Legion Terminator Squad - 195pts - Sergeant and 4 Terminators - Cataphractii Terminator Armour, 1 Heavy Flamer, 4 Power Weapons, 1 Chainfist Fast Attack: 265pts Storm Eagle Gunship - 265pts - Twin-linked Multi-melta, 2 Twin-linked Lascannons, Vengeance Launcher, Machine Spirit Heavy Support: 435pts Grave Warden Terminator Squad - 205pts - Sergeant and 4 Grave Wardens - Cataphractii Terminator Armour, Grenade Launchers, Death Cloud, 4 Power Fists, 1 Chainfist Fire Raptor Gunship - 230pts - Avenger Bolt Cannon, 2 Independent Reaper Batteries, 4 Hellstrike Missiles, Machine Spirit, Extra Armour Legion Sicaran Battle Tank - 175pts - Twin-linked Accelerator Autocannon, Heavy Bolter, Sponson Lascannons Total: 2000pts - - - - - I've mainly picked stuff I think will look cool. But any critiques will be welcome, as I'll want it to be playable as well as "pretty". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Basically, I think your terminators are going to get shot off the table before they get to the enemy. You've got 5 squads in cataphractii armor and transport for one of them. At best, you're moving six inches a turn - assuming you don't get slowed down by difficult terrain somewhere along the way. There is no running in Cataphractii armor. Say you get first turn, and you deploy at the forward edge of your deployment zone. The enemy sets up a 20 man tactical squad 30 inches away (6 inches back from their deployment zone edge). You move forward, you're 24 inches away, you take a couple pot shots with your bolters. If you're lucky, and they don't have an apothecary, you've got about a 45% chance of killing one marine. The tactical squad moves up 6 inches to 18 inches, and unloads 20 rounds in you. They should, statistically, kill one of your 5 terminators by forcing you to take 6 2+ saves after they get ~13 hits and ~6.5 wounds. So now you're 18 inches away and down to 4 guys. You can move up to 12 inches, open up with your combiplasma and plasma blaster, really put the hurt on, right? Well, sure. Six plasma shots will hurt, you'll kill four marines that way, and maybe by now you've gotten that squad down to 15 guys. Except now comes the part where they perform a fury of the legion attack and unleash 60 bolter rounds into your face. 40 hits, 20 wounds, and how many failed saves? You're probably down to one terminator at this point. Do you think you can take the remaining tacticals at this point? 15 vs 1? You'll get the charge for certain, they can't fire overwatch, but there are enough bodies and attacks there to drown you. Yeah, that tactical squad is more expensive than your terminator squad, but not by much. Yeah, this is a silly comparison of two units in a vaccuum and things on the battlefield rarely work out like this, but you need to understand the drawback of cataphractii armor. It's going to take you a long time to get to grips with that tactical squad, and it's not even the most dangerous thing your terminators could be facing. What are you going to do against a pair of predator executioners, raining 6 plasma cannon shots down on you every turn? A Medusa firing phosphex shells? Vindicators with demolisher cannons? Support squads with plasma guns? You're going to be footslogging the slowest units in the army list into the face of massive firepower. At 2000 points, you could even be facing Lords of War. So, just on the face of it, I don't think this list is going to work. Part of that is also the Fire Raptor - I just don't think that flyer is any good. It's like taking a Land Raider and its issue with bringing all its weapons to bear, giving it weaker weapons in the first place, and then reducing the firing arcs of all those weapons, and then giving it the maneuvering restrictions of a flyer. At least the land raider can pivot for free and can fire its sponsons dead ahead (mostly). To add insult to injury it also can't carry anything. You're better off finding the points to bring a second storm eagle so you could at least carry some more terminators to their target and/or combining your terminators into larger squads so you can carry more in the storm eagle and lose fewer in the midfield. ETA: Drop the command squad, increase one of your squads to 8 terminators, stick the praetor and primus medicae with them and put that in the storm eagle, and you're starting to get on the right foot. It's a giant, point-heavy target, but you have to be delivering these terminators somehow. Exchanging the fire raptor (and some of the points from the command squad) for a spartan might be a better move. It's even points-heavier, but Spartans are ded 'ard, and you don't have to wait for it to come in from reserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 Fair points. I suspected that manoeuvrability would be an issue. The real problem I see is that the Terminators don't have a good long ranged weapon option. I like foot slogging but with only the reaper having a range over 24" that does limit them a lot. I suspect I may drop the Terminator heavy PotL idea in favour of getting more bodies on the field with more varied weaponry. Tactical and Support squads may be a better way to go. I'm still getting my head around the changes in strategy that 30k brings. I'd rather buy to a list as well as FW isn't cheap. ;) More thought required I guess. Cheers for the reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Well, one thing to keep in mind is that 30k tends to incentivize larger squads. It's going to reduce your flexibility, but if you take a 10 man terminator squad vs two 5 man squads, you're saving 25 points. 20 man tactical squad vs 2 10 mans, saving 50 points. Combining squads also pushes up the threshhold for taking morale checks from shooting casualties, which gets important with the kinda-average leadership of legions in 30k. So, if you're taking 20 terminators anyway and are intent on footslogging, big squads can be preferable. At least with the points you save, you could buy an apothecary for one of the squads. You could have more maneuverability if you took Tartaros. Yeah, you've got a 2+/5++ instead of that 2+/4++, but you can at least run in the shooting phase. Cataphractii really shines when you've got an assault vehicle to move them across the field and deliver them directly into melee. Whether it's a land raider, spartan, or storm eagle is going to depend on your list/preferences. Sicaran and Lasdestroyer rapier bring a lot of firepower for their points, and for just filling up leftover points in your list the rapier was a good choice. Sicaran is strong in almost any list, it's a very good tank. Melta weapons are of varying usefulness due to the wide availability of Armored Ceramite in 30k. And yeah, I still haven't bought a single thing from FW - still playtesting my lists with proxies while I hammer everything out. You're at least in the UK, I have to pay international shipping. X3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgottenAngel Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Why not drop the plasma and go with volkite chargers and an autocannon? Long range and lethal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted January 3, 2014 Author Share Posted January 3, 2014 Maybe because the Charger only has a 15" range, hardly "long range". Maybe because a lone Reaper isn't great in a 3+ armour dominated setting. Also Volkite Chargers aren't a cheap upgrade. They cost the same as a Combi-weapon. I want to run Terminators, but the more I look at their options the less worth it they seem. Which is a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheForgottenAngel Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Well I was referring to the autocannon. I'd honestly use them as immovable objects on objectives you're opponent is forced to deal with. An autocannon has a longer threat range than the other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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