Reinventing Chaos

[Lord-Captain Cepinari]

I had originally posted this as a reply to the topic "What would you like to see in a Legion Codex?" in the Legion of Excess subforum, but it was such a general answer I decided to bring it here.

 

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To me, Chaos represents short term gain, long term loss. CSM armies should be able to straight up out DPS Loyalist Marines, with the trade off that they lack their counterpart's cohesion and teamwork. In addition, the fickle and random nature of Chaos means that there should be a Random Element, wherein an advantage could easily be replaced by a disadvantage, with the RNG standing in for the Ruinous Powers.

There's also the fact that the ways of Chaos are meant to be many, so instead of homogenizing the CSM they should strive to make them all as tactically different as possible.

Everything Khornate should be as aggressive as possible. No fancy tricks or maneuvers, just run up to the enemy and hit him. Like the Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templar they should be entirely about the Assault. Chaos Gifts should increase damage while making it easier to get into melee range, with the Faustian downside of making you roll every turn to see if your guys completely lose their s**t and start butchering each other or break off to run towards the nearest enemy tank so they can try to bite it.

Everything Tzeentchian should be as magic as possible. Sorcerers get extra spells, units get lots of mutations, and the Daemon options either provide more long range firepower or mess with the opponent in some manner. The downsides are that you're not quite so adept at out-punching your foes, so you rely more on your shootier options, and there's always a chance you'll botch a Chaos Gift roll and that Terminator Lord you invested so heavily in gets one Gift too many and turns into a worthless Chaos Spawn.

Everything Nurglish should be as diseased as possible. Your Marines should all be damage sponges, and your special abilities should be geared towards debuffing your opponent and causing some DOT as well. The drawbacks should involve you not being all that good at straight up killing; you can't hit as hard as a Khorne Berserker and you can't shoot as well as a Rubric Marine, and since all your guys are mostly dead armor plated plague victims they aren't the fastest bunch around, assuming you don't fail a roll and they just collapse into a heaving sack of phlegm.

Everything Slaaneshi should be as EXTREME as possible. Your spell options should be about messing with your enemy, and that extends to Special Weapons options. The Slaaneshi need to kill in as perfect a manner as possible could translate into being able to take out singular targets very well, but not being so good at dealing with large numbers at once they way a hack-n-slash Khornate can. Also, your team's Sensation Addict tendencies should make them unreliable in the field, with bad rolls causing them to bliss out and stop paying attention to their surroundings, or make them crash and burn out, or just have them so distracted by a new sensation that they drop whatever they were doing. (For example, abandon killing an enemy scoring unit so he could enjoy having a piece of shrapnel embedded in his eye.)

 

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As was pointed out to me in the original thread, this attempt at merging Crunch and Fluff produces something completely unusable at the competitive level.  Because of the competitive scene's need to play the rules instead of playing the game, such a true-to-the-source-material mechanic as having to roll dice every turn to see if the Chaos Gods still favor you would suck, which as far as I am concerned is the whole point.  You made a deal with one or more of the 40k equivalents to the Devil, what did you expect to get from it?  I'm getting off-subject.  Ignoring the Random Number God element, what do you think of the idea of diversifying the gameplay of the Chaos Space Marines, and probably as an extension of that, the corresponding Daemon Armies?

[the jeske]

boy , oh boy this is going to be great.

[Forté]

I remember you posting this in the other thread ;)

 

As someone working on a Slaanesh force, well...I don't want to kill you perfectly but, rather...maim to a point where retaliation is hard and painful for you. It lasts so much longer that way. And is so much more enjoyable if you can still see and scream. Then again...there's always new ways to do things ;)

 

 

If only everything was so easy to convey onto the table. I used to have fun using Orks back in 2nd and 3rd. Never knowing if my Madboyz would do something useful or kill themselves over a mushroom. But those days are long gone.

[Nehekhare]

That's not reinventing, that's just how it is - which is absolutely outclassed by the as-heroic-as-possible loyalist forces...

[Iron_Within]

On the note of gods, I would want actions representing the gods favour and displeasure and this being able to be influenced (still with a slight random element to it). e.g. each god has particular activity, Tzeentch casting spells, Khorne assault, Nurgle making saves, Slaanesh killing whole units that the god favours and this will invite a chance of gaining favour (with a small chance of something undesirable like spawndom happening in a regular unit). Equally though, each god has something they don't like, and can negatively impact it, ideas, Khorne=assault with no casualties, Tzeentch=failing psychic tests for example, and these can equally cause the gods displeasure.

It would mean certain playstyles would favour certain units beyond their base ability, they would be their own multiplier and would show a rise to power.

 

Basically, the fickle nature of the gods means that random is never completely out the equation but it can be influenced. I like random I can influence with my activities and so tip the odds in my favour; afterall Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows.

 

Regarding Legion armies, I would want something to make them distinct from each other, even a motley assortment of warriors combat style would be formed by the personality of the lord and in turn his style is formed by his origins and training. So even if you have warband comprised of various traitors the Night Lord warlord means that his force of personality means they all adopt a terror tactic style of warfare or risk his ire.

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

I think trying to implement what you're suggesting - on the scale you're suggesting it - risks completely "breaking" CSM, even for casually competitive play. This level of sheer randomness is not only debateable from a fluff perspective, but isn't going to be palatable to a lot of players as well.

IMO what might work is incorporating some of the mechanics already found elsewhere in 6th Edition (i.e. the Primaris Psychic Powers, or the default Daemonic Rewards in the new Daemon codex) into the next CSM codex. For example instead of each Mark having a fixed effect, what you might pay for is a pregame roll on a simple table:

0 - The default effect, which you can always take, which is almost worth the points paid in most circumstances.
1 - Something worth the points, in certain circumstances.
2 - Something else worth the points, in certain circumstances.
3 - Something worth a bit more than what you paid for.

So say for the MoS, after paying X points per model, what the unit gets (for the entire game) depends on which side of the bed Slaanesh wakes up on, and could be:

0 - +1" to all Moves,Running and Charges.
1 - +1 I, A or WS - could be another roll, or set by the designer.
2 - +1 BS (because Slaanesh presumably is also into perfect shooting.)
3 - FNP

(Please note that the above is just to illustrate the concept, not a fully thought through proposal.)

The key thing here, in my mind, is that you get a certain level of fluffy randomness, but also have some idea of what you'll get for the points you're paying, and can come up with a plan for any particular game (right before you deploy) that should be viable for the entire game. (I get that the Chaos gods are fickle, but have to also imagine that they want their followers to win battles too.)

For those who want a bit more in-game (vice pre-game) randomness, restoring wider access to generic Daemon weapons (perhaps to include some sort of Daemonic shooting weapons) probably would do the trick. And even the hated Champion of Chaos/Chaos Boon Table could probably be tweaked to get a fluffy, but practical result. For example, makes challenges for our guys optional again, but allow them to issue a challenge "In the Name of (insert your patron's name here)!" if they want. If they win, they get to roll on another table (with no defaults this time) that might look (say for Slaanesh) like this:

1 - Your guy takes 1 Wound, with no armor or cover saves allowed - Slaanesh was busy interviewing new Heralds, and is annoyed you've interrupted him.
2 - You get nothing - Slaanesh is unimpressed with your technique.
3 - +1 A
4 - +1 WS
5 - FNP
6 - +1 W (Champs) or EW (ICs)

(Again, the above is just a quick example of the concept.)

The trick to any of the above (or something like it) would be that the details would have to be worked out by someone who: 1. Understands game design, 2. Understands what "the 40K CSM community" (whatever that means) wants and 3. Appreciates CSM fluff. A tall order, but not impossible - just look at some of the other codexes that have come out in 5th and 6th.

[Slayer le Boucher]

There was something like that in 3rd or 3.5, can't rememeber wich one it was.

 

You had a +1 to Summoning Deamons given certains circumstances and what happened on the table before the Summoning.

 

Khorne Deamons had a +1 to Summoning if there was an assault launched in previous turn.

Slaanesh had +1 if an ennemy unit failed a Morale check.

Nurgle was if models where killed previous turn iirc.

And tzeentch was if a Psychic test was passed.

 

WHat could also happen is that given certain situations, you get a "Favor" token.

 

Favor Tokens are put togheter in a pool, in wich there is 4 distinct groups, each for each God.

 

Lets say that if you kill models in CC, you get a favor Token of Khorne for each 5 Wounds you make.

 

Once you reach lets say 8 Favors Tokens of Khorne, models with the Mark of Khorne/Deamon of Khorne gets +1A, or a single rethrow to hit or to wound per turn, at 16 Tokens you get something else etc.

 

For Nurgle for each 7 models killed by a model with the mark of.Deamon of Nurgle, gets 1 Favor, once there is 7 Favors of Nurgle, models with the Marok/Deamon of Nurgle, gets a +1 on their FnP, or +1 on their poisoned attacks.

 

And so on and so so.

[the jeske]

that was 2ed . you needed summoning points to be able to summon demons . hit was khorn , wound was nurgle , Force card used was tzeench , no idea what slanesh was [no ever used those] .

[Slayer le Boucher]

pretty sure it was also in the 3rd jervis codex, when Deamons all had the same stats, but only a +1 in the approriate stat given the patron god.

[Wayniac]

pretty sure it was also in the 3rd jervis codex, when Deamons all had the same stats, but only a +1 in the approriate stat given the patron god.

 

Having last played Chaos around this time, I believe you are right.  I don't ever recall having to summon daemons in 2nd edition but come to think of it I don't recall actually using demons at all.  I do, however, recall having to sacrifice a model to bring out a greater daemon; nothing like summoning a Bloodthirster in combat :D

[Wayniac]

Honestly I'd like for Chaos to have the most options of any Codex for the kind of army you can build, because that to me is what Chaos is.  You should be able to do a mostly daemonic army, or an almost 100% Traitor Marine army, or all Cultists/Renegade IG, or the like.  However I always thought they should be separate lists not just crammed into one codex as options, they should really be exclusive.  If you're playing let's say a Khorne army, you should only be allowed to take Bloodletters and Khornate daemons, if you're doing a true Undivided army you should get say 1 squad of each or something like that. I'd like less of a focus on the whole demons/demon engines; I know that's generally thought of as what Chaos is about but to me that's a different side of chaos than the Traitor Marines.

 

The main appeal for me to Chaos has always been the archaic, ancient feel they had compared to loyalists.  Things like termies having combi-bolters because the storm bolter wasn't developed, or the Reaper Autocannon instead of the Assault Cannon; hell I remember when the It Gets Hot rule was only for Chaos MkI Plasma Guns which weren't as developed back in the HH days.  I never liked the lack of a version of ATSKNF though because while Chaos might have the sense to run away and save their skin, they would also likely be more ready to stand in and die fighting than surrender; maybe just something like they can't suffer sweeping assaults, but can still break and may or may not regroup - something to show that they can turn tail and run but don't scatter, I'm not sure.

[Rasclomalum]

For what it's worth, I like how Heretics work in DoWII. They can worship at shrines to grant your army boons. Different marks grant different effects, and undivided giving small bonuses all over. 

 

While we're at it, I'd love to see cultists as a regular plastic kit with at least 10 of them, including all wargear options and looking just like the heretics from DoWII. 

[Iron_Within]

Fulgrim Slayer was more on the nose with what I meant. When purchasing a mark you still get the normal mark of that god, during the course of the battle, is what I meant, like pain tokens, but more fickle. A simple D6 when a unit hits certain conditions would suffice, with +/- modifiers, the results ranging from 0 to 7 (or 0 to 4 on a D3). Something like that. It would mean that you don't get the very worst simply by rolling a 1, you have to work for the best (or worst) but there is an element of randomness.

 

These things would be like pain tokens, so you can keep track easily, and not have to micromanage. Ultimately though what I mean is that random isn't "random" like the boon table where you cannot influence it with tabletop actions.

 

What I'd also like to see is Force Organisation manipulation. GW sell us the idea of warbands and these are based on the leaders personality, well I'd like to have Raptor Warbands, Biker warbands or elite heavy warbands. I'd want such Force Organisation manipulation to be independent of Legion rules, so you can have Iron Warrior Biker armies, or Raptor Word Bearers, why? Because of narrative, my Lord have been an outrider in the heresy for his legion, that doesn't automatically make him a Night Lord.

[Xenith]

Thoughts on this:

 

For characters marks are free, marked models may:

Nurgle: May exchange 1 point of strength for 1 point of toughness (Low output, high tanking)

Slaanesh: May exchange 1 point of toughness for 1 point of strength (emphasising a killing blow, on a willowy frame)

Khorne: May exchange 1 point of WS for 1 attack (The Nails)

Tzeentch: May exchange 1 point of S and T for 1 Mastery Level (physically frail, powerful mind)

 

Kind of like the old Vampire Counts Bloodlines, where you swapped WS for I for Lahmians, etc.

[Tenebris]

On the other hand I would advocate for a complete remake of the basic Chaos Space Marine. I think that here, and only here GW should step up and make the CSM a highly elite unit with a very steep power level and cost, representing the CSM as a veteran from hell incarnate, the pinnacle of astartes power and a worthy warrior of the Chaos Gods. 

 

Initially I would give all CSM 2 wounds base, +1 to Weapon and Ballistic Skill with a point cost rise equal to a marine and a half. I think that our core unit should be really a fearsome unit, which is point by point much much better than a loyalist marine, the offset would be a high cost, and an even higher cost for upgrades. With this setup the Champion of Chaos rule would make sense, the fluff would make sense and the role of a might Troops option would make sense.

 

Upgrade this with the Marks or make them into Cult Troops and you really have the option for the following; the Cult troops would really be cult troops, elite, powerful and effective in their role, the basic CSM would be a truly deadly unit that would be able to go against all foes and the cultists would have their true worth as expendable units, to bulk the numbers of a Chaos Space Marine army.

 

Combine that and the Marks and you have an army that plays as by background, which has fearsome Power Armor units and the access to cheap, expendable units. Most of the rules and the marks would make the core CSM a great unit and will at long last return the idea of Chaos Space Marines as a viable, effective and elite army.

 

I think that one could field a max of 30 CSM in an CSM army but the feel would be epic and a clear line would be set between loyalist and traitors. Overall fighting chaos should be a bitter experience, chaotic, brutal in melee and savage on range. The adversary should think, those CSM must not get into Double Tap range and should never ever get so close to melee me. Are those CSM Khorne marked... than I am dead in melee, are those CSM devoted to Nurgle, than how the hell I am going to down them, are those Slaaneshi... than my poor champions and Hq are going to die in challenges and the CSM would be over the half of the board by turn two, and are those Tzeentch marked CSM... I better have some solid counter tactic for those are very unpredictable.

 

Overall Chaos should be the faction of extremes, the Eldar are the faction of specialized units, well the Chaos Space Marine should be an extreme version of the loyalist marines, extremely tough, deadly both in cac and in range, a fearsome unit straight out of the box and a unit one should never ever wish to face... to balance the power armor units should be very expensive and would require a commander that has the feel for fielding a really "elite" army. 

 

If we want to horde, we have the cultists for that job. It should never be the province of the basic Chaos Space Marine, those are too rare and too deadly to be used as horde (with the exception of the Black Legion, this should be their thing...).

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Thoughts on this:

 

For characters marks are free, marked models may:

Nurgle: May exchange 1 point of strength for 1 point of toughness (Low output, high tanking)

Slaanesh: May exchange 1 point of toughness for 1 point of strength (emphasising a killing blow, on a willowy frame)

Khorne: May exchange 1 point of WS for 1 attack (The Nails)

Tzeentch: May exchange 1 point of S and T for 1 Mastery Level (physically frail, powerful mind)

 

Kind of like the old Vampire Counts Bloodlines, where you swapped WS for I for Lahmians, etc.

And Tzeentch would be screwed over yet again, plus, these guys sold their souls for power, why should they have disadvantages other then points costs? You don't see loyalists suffering disadvantages like that.

[Rasclomalum]

On the other hand I would advocate for a complete remake of the basic Chaos Space Marine. I think that here, and only here GW should step up and make the CSM a highly elite unit with a very steep power level and cost, representing the CSM as a veteran from hell incarnate, the pinnacle of astartes power and a worthy warrior of the Chaos Gods. 

 

Initially I would give all CSM 2 wounds base, +1 to Weapon and Ballistic Skill with a point cost rise equal to a marine and a half. I think that our core unit should be really a fearsome unit, which is point by point much much better than a loyalist marine, the offset would be a high cost, and an even higher cost for upgrades. With this setup the Champion of Chaos rule would make sense, the fluff would make sense and the role of a might Troops option would make sense.

 

I like your thinking, I'm just wondering what with lieutenant HQ-level characteristics, if it would be feasible mechanics-wise for them to remain a troops selection?

[Tenebris]

Indeed, they would be TRUE Aspiring Champions, mini bosses all. Which will go hand in hand with the background for the Chaos champions are truly exceptional foes, deadly warriors and powerful psykers. One would know that to face an Aspiring Champion is a dire threat, but on the other side you cannot allow him to add his attacks in melee, hence you are prudent when you accept a challenge, by doing so you help the CSM player to have afterall duels to fight, you help your army since you mitigate the awesome damage a Champion can unleash and both, you and your CSM adversary forge the narrative, so dear to GW nowadays. 

 

If you win such an epic duel you would remember it as a salient point of the game, if the Chaos player wins it (most probably) his army will be allowed to take advantage of his army specific rule, hence we would benefit from it on more levels. Also it would be a tactical decision to make, can you really allow an Aspiring Champion to grow more powerful every turn, can you afford to duel him, can you beat him and how? On the other side the Chaos player would be confident that his Aspiring Champion has all he needs to win a duel, he would wade into combat much easily and would even play the tactical game to tag and kill enemy leaders with the duel mechanic, as it should be the Chaos way. For hands down, such an Aspiring Champion would have a fighting chance even against some dedicated close combat HQ options of the other armies. 

[Rasclomalum]

What if there were more levels of marines? The Wolves have Bloodclaws... you could have initiate Chaos Marines that were troops, *regular* Chaos Space Marines that were the elite choices you described, and then Chosen that could either form their own ultra-elite unit or be assigned to lead squads of lesser marines.

[Sanguinius Chosen Wing]

Daemons of chaos in fantasy already have a table you roll on each of your turns to see what happens, just shoehorn that in to show favour etc and the army will work pretty much the same without being overwhelming or leading to too any disadvantages or gains with an easier access to opening up certain force orgs depending on war gear taken (bikes as troops, termis as troops etc) would be a fairly easy fix and save the ongoing complaint about lack of legion/god distinction

[Tenebris]

I think that to start this discussion one should first ask a question, how should it feel when you kill a Chaos Space Marine?

 

As it is now it is not that different from killing a marine of any kind, it is simply a basic marine with generic stats, nothing special. I think that when you manage to kill a Chaos Space Marine it should feel like you vanquished a deadly foe, a dark antique figure of unholy power and a ruin to the sane world. In short it should feel significant and salient in every battle. Much like it is when you kill a Grey Knight Paladin per say. Once you down that model, only a few remain, but even so it was an achievement on its own. 

 

The background says that the ancient space marines were much more powerful and greater than the modern space marines, and this should be represented on tabletop, with a higher wound pool, better statistics, better weapons and perhaps even a bit taller models on the board.

 

For renegade marines there should be the option to have a thing like Renegade Tactics, allowing them to use a single unit from their parent codex (aka Centurions, Black Knights...) since we speak of completely two different things. 

 

In the end killing a single CSM should be an important event, killing an Aspiring Champion a great feat and killing a Chaos Lord an event that sends ripples across both armies. One on one the CSM should outclass every loyalist codex but the downside would be that you have only a few of the Chaos Space Marines, let alone elite units like Chosen and Terminators who would be on par with Paladins. We speak of truly the most powerful astartes that have ever walked in the galaxy, angels of death who have fallen so low that they gave themselves to daemons and dark gods. When you fight the CSM it should be portrayed as an event when your army not only fights for victory but also for the salvation of their souls and the sanity of their mind, it should be a gruesome, brutal and soulcrushing experience for your models on the board.

 

Imagine a squad of 10 CSM simply walk over a platoon of Imperial Guard, slaughter half of a Tactical Squad your ally and than its champion killing a Space Marine Chaplain in duel. All the while you roll tests for "Sainity" or for "Corruption" which degenerate your army every turn. 

 

On the concept of "Sanity" it should be a Warp Storm like table on which not you but YOUR OPPONENT rolls. With creepy and beneficial results both. 

[Xenith]

Chaos works well in fantasy because the basic troops (Warriors, S4 T4) are so much better than other basic troops (S3 T3), meaning they can be a true elite army.

In 40k, the space marine is the basic troop, and so anything retaining their profile is average by default.

 

Giving them stat increases, as mentioned before is good, as you can then make them hard to kill, and make more elite armies.

 

True veterans of the long war should have profiles exceeding those of a space marine veteran. The current CSM profile should be relegated to 'newly turned' and the CSM Legionary profile added to the troop section, like orc boys and bigguns.

 

WS5, S5 T5 2A basic, 22 points each?

[Trevak Dal]

Chaos works well in fantasy because the basic troops (Warriors, S4 T4) are so much better than other basic troops (S3 T3), meaning they can be a true elite army.

 

In 40k, the space marine is the basic troop, and so anything retaining their profile is average by default.

 

Giving them stat increases, as mentioned before is good, as you can then make them hard to kill, and make more elite armies.

 

True veterans of the long war should have profiles exceeding those of a space marine veteran. The current CSM profile should be relegated to 'newly turned' and the CSM Legionary profile added to the troop section, like orc boys and bigguns.

 

WS5, S5 T5 2A basic, 22 points each?

 

I think chosen with WS, S, and T of 5 would be fine, though Terminators should also follow suit.

 

Chosen would really be worth their points then...

[Xenith]

Yea, chosen should really be better than a Veteran Space marine in every respect, in the fluff they are the rulers of worlds etc. 

 

Likewise the terminators are those who have:

 

1) Managed to fight off those chaos marines wanting to steal their armour for the past 10,000 years

2) Managed to kill a SM terminator and fight off the others who compete for the armour.

 

Chosen should be like Wolf Guard, S5 T5 WS5, option for Termie armour r to be split off to lead squads.

 

CSM are much more survival of the fittest than SM, and their skills and abilities should reflect this. Loyalist captains and chapter asters would be very different if their underlings were always plotting their demise.

[Rasclomalum]

Would the S5 T5 statline carry over to sorcerers as well? Because that would be rad.