Reinventing Chaos

[Xenith]

All characters are, by their very nature, Champions of Chaos.

 

The Basic Legionary would have S5 T5, 1 special per 5 models and all characters, cults etc would too.

 

The 'Renegade space Marine' entry would be as they are now, and act as 'scouts' to the legionaries 'marines', and as marauders to the foil of chaos warriors: less tough, less well armed, more numerous etc. Bolter or BP+CCW, 10-12 ppm.

 

So the troops section looks like this:

 

Chaos Space Marine (Legionary)  WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 

 

Chaos Space Marine (Renegade) WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8

 

Chaos Cultist                            WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld6

[Wayniac]

That actually would be interesting.  I've often thought that CSM should be baseline equivalent to Veterans in the loyal forces, since not only were they Space Marines but they were trained by the Primarchs themselves and have had 10,000 years of combat experience to hone their skills so they should be a smaller and elite force, but they do get recruits and the like that would be weaker.  I recall a story in the Space Marine anthology novel with Honsou the Iron Warriors guy on a planet in the Maelstrom ruled by Huron Blackheart and there's this tournament with all these different warbands from different planets, and that's how they get recruits (and then presumably do something with stolen geneseed to make them into what amounts to Space Marines).  Those guys could be the regular troops (maybe even have them not quite SM level, like S3 T4 but 3+ save or something to have it be different), and the actual Traitor Legion marines should be above that in power.

[Brother Ambroz]

I like the idea of having multiple "classes" of CSM. I really don't like the random marks idea that was mentioned earlier. That follows the "LOLCHAOSISRANDOMZ" that GW seems to think chaos means. Why would it have to be random?

[the jeske]

So wait you plan for it to be possible to play chaos with fewer models ? Am I getting this right ?

[Rasclomalum]

I like the idea of having multiple "classes" of CSM. I really don't like the random marks idea that was mentioned earlier. That follows the "LOLCHAOSISRANDOMZ" that GW seems to think chaos means. Why would it have to be random?

 

Random marks makes no sense at all. 

 

"Hey Khârn!"

 

- "Yeah?"

 

"Today you're a noise marine!"

 

*Gorechild cleaves faceplate*

[Iron_Within]

I have no idea where this idea for random marks has come from, it wasn't my remarks. I said marks would be fixed, but the in addition to that (as in a separate thing) the eyes of the gods could ebb and flow based upon player actions, in a measured way that one can influence.

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

If you're using loyalist Space Marines as your tabletop standard, consider this - on average, for every 18 shots fired at them by our Cultist rabble, one goes down. How does that compare with all of the "one squad of Legiones Astartes can conquer a world" fluff out there on the Ultramarines, Space Wolves etc.?

 

From a fluff perspective the loyalists are also woefully underpowered, and until the Corpse Emperor's lapdogs are all upgraded to "Movie Space Marines" (which is never going to happen - see jeske's comment above for why) we're going to stay that way too.

 

(Edited to correct my Mathhammer - on average it only takes 18 shots from Cultists to down one Space Marine, vice the figure of 20 I originally posted.)

[Xenith]

So wait you plan for it to be possible to play chaos with fewer models ? Am I getting this right ?

Making generic Chaos Space marines better would actually result in having more of them on the table. Probably fewer models overall, but more power armoured models.

 

Original Crusade-born space marines are also thought to be genetically better than the ones of 40k which are cloned from clones from clones.

[Spacefrisian]

boy , oh boy this is going to be great.

Sarcasm?...

 

 

Anyway i stopped reading when Spacewolves were mentioned to use the same tactic as Khorne Berzerkers, Someone is mixing things up, like being good in combat equals mindlesly charging in. 

 

tip: Spacewolves hunt, they do not act like Berzerkers.

[Xenith]

Spacefrisian, on 05 Jan 2014 - 16:58, said:

Anyway i stopped reading when Spacewolves were mentioned to use the same tactic as Khorne Berzerkers, Someone is mixing things up, like being good in combat equals mindlesly charging in.

 

tip: Spacewolves hunt, they do not act like Berzerkers.

Bloodclaws.

[the jeske]

 

boy , oh boy this is going to be great.

Sarcasm?...

 

 

Anyway i stopped reading when Spacewolves were mentioned to use the same tactic as Khorne Berzerkers, Someone is mixing things up, like being good in combat equals mindlesly charging in. 

 

tip: Spacewolves hunt, they do not act like Berzerkers.

No I realy like the lets rebuild chaos treads . As far as SW goes , more then a few of them are berzkerkers[where berzerker is that red haze kill kill kill dude] , a SW can of course be more , unlike a WE.

[Forté]

It would be nice to have a unit type which represents those who were fighting during the Heresy and have a ton of experience. Almost how Chosen used to be. A small list of special abilities you can buy but with a point limit like Daemon Herald upgrades (max XX points from the list below).

[Rasclomalum]

It would be nice to have a unit type which represents those who were fighting during the Heresy and have a ton of experience. Almost how Chosen used to be. A small list of special abilities you can buy but with a point limit like Daemon Herald upgrades (max XX points from the list below).

 

Might as well make them work like Heralds. 

 

Each primary detachment in your army may contain up to four Lieutenants/Daemontouched/Hellknights/Triarii/Cooler name needed. This selection uses a single HQ slot from your Force Organization Chart, but the Megachaosdudes otherwise count as separate units. Note that your Supreme Traitors can form a unit on the tabletop if you so wish, provided they share the same mark or are unmarked. 

 

Independent Character. May immediately before deployment be attached to any unit. 

 

Exalted Champion: 115 points (or whatever). 

 

WS5, BS5, S5, T5, W2, I5, A3, LD10, Sv3+

 

Wargear: Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades. 

 

Special rules. Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Hatred (Space Marines). 

 

May take any of the following options: Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, Meltagun, Flamer, Plasma Gun, Lightning Claw, Power Fist, Combi-bolter, Combi-weapon, Missile Launcher, Lascannon, Autocannon, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer. 

May take a bike, jump pack, or daemonic steed, provided no heavy weapon has been taken.

May replace Power Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Frag Grenades and Krak Grenades for Tactical Dreadnought Armour, a Combi-Bolter and a Power Weapon. 

An Exalted Champion in Tactical Dreadnought Armour may replace any of his weapons for: a Lightning Claw, a Power Fist, a Chainfist, a Combi-weapon, a Combi-bolter, a Power Weapon.

An Exalted Champion in Tactical Dreadnought Armour may replace one weapon for: a Heavy Flamer or a Reaper Autocannon. 

May take Melta Bombs. 

May take a Mark of Chaos 

May take an Icon of Chaos. 

 

Each Exalted Champion may take up to 50 points of daemonic gifts, in any combination, from the selection below: 

 

... stuff like giving Hatred to the unit, Preferred Enemy something that overrides Daemonic Instability and allows them to join Codex: Chaos Daemons units, Daemon weapons, perhaps the option to be a Lv1 psyker, the usual fare. 

[Forté]

Not a bad idea. Think the stats may be a bit high but the idea of them passing benefits onto units.

[the jeske]

remember that a lvl 1 sorc with stats close to this cost half what the exalted dude costs.

I can imagine such a unit[the dark apostol maybe] have a *action* to give traits to one unit , if it was any units within X" of him or only a unit he joins would be unimportant . let me give out support stuff like shrouded/stealth , zelot etc no tank hunter/FnP . at 65 naked he would be balanced .

[Hellios]

The Exalted Champion should replace the Apostle/sorcerer/Warpsmith, with those abilities being purchases for him. Make them 2 for 1 slot, and allow them to unlock cult troops based on their mark. You should also be able to buy upgrades for Lords... and maybe even DPs.

[Lord-Captain Cepinari]

I like it.  This is going really well so far.

[Spacefrisian]

Is reinventing the marks also part of this, as i always found it odd that those disease ridden marines could as easily wounded by poisoned weapons as mr regular marine.

[Xenith]

Is reinventing the marks also part of this, as i always found it odd that those disease ridden marines could as easily wounded by poisoned weapons as mr regular marine.

 

The 'poison' rule is just a catch all term, it may not actually be a toxin in the bullet, just something designed to hurt life.

 

DE may load penicillin into their splinter rifles when fighting Death Guard.

[Trevak Dal]

Man, I hope there's some truth about the "Book of *insert chaos god*" stuff.  I like that exalted champion a lot, though I do wish your 'Lord' could be a Sorcerer too.

 

I really think Chosen should be a retinue for Lords like how SM Captains and Chapter Masters have Command squads and Honor guard, but they should be able to match the Lord.

 

If the lord is on a bike-they can take bikes.  Lord is in a jump pack-they can take jump packs, lord is in terminator Armor, they can take terminator armor etc.  If in terminator armor they'd be able to count +1 attack for being double armed with their combi-bolters/meltas/plasmas/etc unlike normal csm terminators.

 

More realistically, I'd like to be able to buy Aspiring champions aura of dark glory, familiars and the like.

[Warsmith Aznable]

If the lord is on a bike-they can take bikes.  Lord is in a jump pack-they can take jump packs, lord is in terminator Armor, they can take terminator armor etc.  If in terminator armor they'd be able to count +1 attack for being double armed with their combi-bolters/meltas/plasmas/etc unlike normal csm terminators.

 

Blanket access to all options except Chaos Artefacts would be fantastic. Chosen on Juggernauts? Yes, please. Chosen in TDA? I'll take five. Adding Sigils of Corruption to my melee Chosen? I'd love to. Infiltrating Chosen with combi-bolters using inferno bolts? Why not?

 

Just throw open the doors and announce, "you are Chosen. You've got it if you want to pay for it." Sort of like SM Sternguard or Death Company or Wolf Guard, in that you can give them ridiculous options, but only if you pay through the nose to do it.

[Ifrit446]

This thread is everything I could have wanted and more. So surprising to see this thread go up around the same time that I am stuck home in -20 degree weather, reinventing the chaos codex in my spare time. 

 

What do you guys think about a sort of Chapter tactics rule, to help represent all of the Legions of old?? The loyalists get to have their's along with the option of making "successor chapters" to use all of their chapters, so why not us?? Are we not equally if not more varied in our methods than they are?? 

 

Just kind of musing here, but what if you could dedicate your warband to a specific Legion and then they'd benefit from said Legion's tactics. This could be done either through dedicating your HQ and then the whole army follows suit, or you could dedicate your forces piecemeal by maybe paying a similar cost to a mark of Chaos (so making a squad of Legionnaires into say...Iron Warrior Legionnaires would be like 20 points for the squad or 2 points a model or something like that). That way, we could keep the idea of chaos warbands banding together and you'd get the chance to have a variety of traitors banding together, or stay with a single Legion if you want that cohesive look. 

[Warsmith Aznable]

What do you guys think about a sort of Chapter tactics rule, to help represent all of the Legions of old?? The loyalists get to have their's along with the option of making "successor chapters" to use all of their chapters, so why not us?? Are we not equally if not more varied in our methods than they are?? 

 

I had a crack at this when the latest SM first came out:

 

Legacy of the Legions

Legacy of the World Eaters: 4+ Deny the Witch, Fleet (Warlord and unit must have Mark/Daemon of Khorne)

Legacy of the Thousand Sons: Brotherhood of Psykers (generate 1 random Tzeentch power for each squad for use at Mastery Level 1), Power Weapons become Force Weapons (Warlord must have Mark/Daemon of Tzeentch),

Legacy of the Death Guard:  6+ Feel No Pain, Shrouded  (Warlord and unit must have Mark/Daemon of Nurgle)

Legacy of the Emperor’s Children: Opponents must re-roll successful Armour and Invulnerable Saves in Assaults (Warlord and unit must have Mark/Daemon of Slaanesh)

Legacy of the Night Lords: Night Vision, Fear, Scouts

Legacy of the Black Legion: Fearless, army gets +1 or -1 to own Reserves rolls and can force opponent to re-roll any Reserves roll if Black Legion is primary detachment

Legacy of the Iron Warriors: Relentless, Tank Hunter, any Aspiring Champion, Champion, or HQ choice may take a servo-arm for 25 points. (Warlord must not have a Mark/Daemon of Chaos)

Legacy of the Alpha Legion: Infiltrate, Invisible (for the first turn only/and only unmarked CSM)

Legacy of the Word Bearers: Daemonic Possession (squad must have a Mark, and it must be the same Mark as any HQ choice in their detachment)

The player chooses a Legacy for a detachment in their army. Any Infantry squad in that detachment that has VotLW may benefit from the rules provided by the Legacy. An army from Codex Chaos Space Marines my ally with another detachment from Codex Chaos Space Marines provided it does not have the same Legacy. Detachments with a Legion Legacy must be recognizable as being different from an allied detachment either through paint scheme or modeling options, preferably by painting the models in the Legion colors or a known warband from that Legion. DIY warbands may choose any Legion Legacy, but the player should not be a flaming munchkin about it.

 

I did that fairly quickly as part of a rant I did on my own blog, so it's probably flawed as all get out. It was just an exercise to demonstrate that it would not have been exceptionally hard to do. If I could do that as I typed, somebody getting paid to figure out these sorts of things could have done it in a reasonable amount of time and included it in our codex.

[Dosdamt]

I think legacy of the legions is a great idea, however, I would try and ensure that there's a requirement for the army to be able to take Legacy of the Legions that, (as an example)

 

- World Eaters - All Units must take the Mark of Khorne; At least 1 unit must be Berzerkers (minimum size 8); Warlord must have MoK; MoK on Rhinos grants Assault Ramps, Possessed (30 pts) - Mark of Khorne on Terminators, Chosen, Raptors, Bike Marines CSM grants additionally - 4+ Deny the Witch, Fleet; Chain Axes grant Rending; Cannot take Forgefiends, Heldrakes, Warp Smiths, Vindicators, Havocs, Cultists, Warp Talons, Obliterators; May only Ally with Daemons with Mark of Khorne

 

I think Legion Tactics should really focus on the flavour of the Legion, but deny you other juicy options to make up for it?

[Warsmith Aznable]

I think legacy of the legions is a great idea, however, I would try and ensure that there's a requirement for the army to be able to take Legacy of the Legions that, (as an example)

 

- World Eaters - All Units must take the Mark of Khorne; At least 1 unit must be Berzerkers (minimum size 8); Warlord must have MoK; MoK on Rhinos grants Assault Ramps, Possessed (30 pts) - Mark of Khorne on Terminators, Chosen, Raptors, Bike Marines CSM grants additionally - 4+ Deny the Witch, Fleet; Chain Axes grant Rending; Cannot take Forgefiends, Heldrakes, Warp Smiths, Vindicators, Havocs, Cultists, Warp Talons, Obliterators; May only Ally with Daemons with Mark of Khorne

 

I think Legion Tactics should really focus on the flavour of the Legion, but deny you other juicy options to make up for it?

 

Creating unit restrictions puts too much of a limit on individual players to express their personal take on a warband, IMO. In my scheme you have the Legacy, but it only applies to squads that have VotLW, so it represents a hard core within the warband, as opposed to making whole warbands fit into a predetermined shape.