[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[defl0]

@Terminus

 

Sorry no offense meant, I was just curious, as I never interpreted it that way. (I do read the rules, I don't play the game a lot but I do read and reread the rulebook(s))

 

I always thought that infantry got infiltrate and fleet

 

terminators/bikes/jump infantry got furious charge.

 

It never occurred to me that because terminators and jump infantry are ALSO infantry that they get infiltrate and fleet as well.

 

As others have noted this is probably what the game designers MEANT, but if they truly cared they'd have fixed it by now.

 

Oh well.

 

But they don't... FW has clarified at a couple events and are very clear if you send them the question. 

 

RAW: You are totally right. 

 

It's retarded they haven't FAQ'd it. It causes trouble at events all the time. 

 

Play it as you like, but I've found that the overall 30k community tends to look at it as you get one or the other. 

 

Tactically, it doesn't matter as much as you think, as you will usually do around 2 charge in either scenario. 

 

From a fluff perspective, there are tons of examples of infiltrating raven Guard jumpers... 

 

The fact that they didn't clarify it with the reprinting of the legion book drives bonkers. 

[Terminus]

Problem is the "event confirmations" are never documented or archived, and usually is something along the lines of one guy who was there posting it off-handedly on a forum.  For example, we recently had a guy who apparently spoke with Bligh at an event and was told that recon company needs 3 troops.  Now this is only confirmation of rules as written, but arguments persist and if someone wasn't there to read that thread any mention of this conversation is hearsay.  The email responses are equally useless. 

 

They had three versions of the rules and several drafts of the FAQ to fix it, and they didn't. It's kind of hard to argue against explicit and unequivocal rules as written because "some guy on the internet said otherwise", even if that guy is a FW employee.

 

Maybe this is an opportunity for a 30K blogger or site operator to create a "rulings from FW" archive that documents answers from events and emails (the latter are iffy, but if you got multiple confirmation emails saying the same thing, it's at least something).

Edited September 22, 2016 by Terminus

[defl0]

I would be interesting to have all the rule questions put up as polls and have the community decide. 

[Nusquam]

Anyone try out 10 raven talon equipped tartaros termis? THe upcoming Prospero box has me drooling over plastic tartaros. I may do it just for rule of cool but the number cruncher in me had to do some comparisons.

 

• • Deathshroud Terminator Squad (410pts)

    10x Deathshroud Terminators

    • Legiones Astartes

      Legion Specific Rules

  • Firedrake Terminator Squad (625pts)

    9x Dragonscale Storm Shield, 9x Firedrakes, 9x Thunder Hammer

    • Firedrake Master

      Dragonscale Storm Shield, Master-crafted Thunder Hammer

    • Legiones Astartes

      Legion Specific Rules

  • Gorgon Terminator Squad (375pts)

    Gorgon Hammerbearer, 9x Gorgon Terminator

    • Legiones Astartes

      Legion Specific Rules

  • VII Legion Terminator Squad (575pts)

    9x Legion Terminators, Tartaros Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, 9x Thunderhammer, 9x Vigil Pattern Storm Shield

    • Legion Terminator Sergeant

      Thunderhammer, Vigil Pattern Storm Shield

    • Legiones Astartes

      Legion Specific Rules

  • XIX Legion Terminator Squad (575pts)

    9x Legion Terminators, 9x Pair of Raven's Talons, Tartaros Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon

    • Legion Terminator Sergeant

      Pair of Raven's Talons

    • Legiones Astartes

      Legion Specific Rules

  • Phoenix Terminator Squad (465pts)

    9x Phoenix Terminators

    • Legiones Astartes

      Legion Specific Rules

 

Now there's obviously different implications and applications for each of these. Like I wouldn't do VII termis into a hoard of thralls or daemons because they'll just be drowned in wounds and die horribly before they swing. But I would send them after automata, tanks, other termis. But I would send XIX talon termis and pheonix termis into hoards to mince and sweep, but avoid automata and other termis for the most part.

 

So generally speaking the gorgons are the cheapest as they are essentially just termintors+. Drakes are the most expensive because they have W2 and are tanks.

 

I'm mostly thinking for Zone Mortalis because Dark Furies exist for half the price in normal games. I mean you could use them in zone, but I don't trust that many dangerous terrain tests unless I want to walk everywhere.

[Terminus]

Tartaros can't take storm shields, but otherwise that's a whole lot of points for a slow-moving unit that can only kill power armor.  You can delete power armor a lot easier and cheaper than a ~600 terminator unit + transport.

 

You forgot arguably the best two Terminators, Siege Tyrants and Justaerin.

[defl0]

I've tried it. They were better than I thought. I mean on average you are going to do 7 to 8 wounds against cataphractii termies on the charge. That's a big chunk of damage. 

 

Definitely remember to take the the grenade harness though. I usually take a couple chain fists as well. Something like a contemptor can totally ruin your day. Not as cool, but I magnetized mine because I kinda like having the combi weapons instead of 2 claws. 

 

Finally, Dark Fury in zone mortalis are HOT with a vigi in recon armor and a jump pack. Go Go move through cover and stealth for your jumpers! 

[Terminus]

You can't join a Recon Armor Vigilator to Dark Furies if you are playing by your stated interpretation that Raven Guard jump pack infantry does not get infiltrate and fleet.  I guess you're just joining him later and not utilizing the infiltrate?

[Nusquam]

Tartaros can't take storm shields, but otherwise that's a whole lot of points for a slow-moving unit that can only kill power armor.  You can delete power armor a lot easier and cheaper than a ~600 terminator unit + transport.

 

You forgot arguably the best two Terminators, Siege Tyrants and Justaerin.

 

I did totally forget them. But sieges are more shooty. And Justerians are pretty great. I dont think Talon Tartaros will ever match them but then again I knew that going in. I believe that XIX Talon tartaros have their own niche as just being able to cleave through blobs of power armor delivered via darkwing without sacrificing your FA slots. Theres better sure, looking at you phosphex rapiers, but boy will it look cool.

[Nova_chron]

So I felt like chiming in after my first game back in the hobby since may or June. I wanted some.more veteran players input I loved my unit of dark furies in the game 10 guys plus my praetor but I can't help but feel the praetor is 200 points of fluff in that unit. What would you guys suggest is a better character for them I was thinking chaplain for fearless zealot and causing fear all in a tidy 160 point package after giving him talons and the usual gear to run with the unit.

[Nusquam]

I recommend the Chaplain for fearless alone.

[Nova_chron]

Yeah I lucked out and got paladin of glory trait and I just cannot imagine that unit without it now lol

[defl0]

I recommend the Chaplain for fearless alone.

 

Chaplain's are great. They are force multipliers for infantry and all the Raven Guard enhancements are infantry based. 

 

Fearless also keeps bodies on the table. Raven Guard are pretty good at the attrition game. We can alpha strike, which takes dakka off the table. We have war gear to increase cover saves. Plus, we don't really have to spend a lot on transports, so we can field more infantry. Infiltrate also starts us closer to the enemy, so we can buy special weapons that hit as hard as heavy weapon but cost less points because of their range premium. 

 

So chpalian's fit great in the concept that Raven Guard are the efficiency of points legion. 

[Nova_chron]

Yeah I've been trimming down my transport count lately still love my drop pods tho

[Nusquam]

SO I just saw a MWG batrep where they dissect the Moritat chainfire rule. Apparently as it's worded they can chainfire every turn, and cant fire in the next player turn, which would be your opponents. Thus no interceptor/overwatch. Well, it makes Moritats not as terrible since they cap out at 12 hits AND still have the crap overheat rule. I'll take anything that makes Nex playable. Even if only barely.

[Slips]

Huh, I'll have to reread the entry but thats cool if so.

[Terminus]

"They may not Assault in that player turn or use shooting attacks the following turn."

 

So it's a tad vague (what else is new). It doesn't say the following player turn, which is what the above argues, but you could take it as being implied.

[Nusquam]

Its from the BRB, when it references 'turn' it means player turn unless it says 'game turn'

 

Oh, also. Anyone try out the new Sky Slayer Squadron? They're 5ppm over speeders, but can shrug off AP3. Speeders can get graviton however, which will then cost more. Then Javelins have more dakka but also cost more.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Nusquam

[Nusquam]

So I'm making some true scale marines out of the plastic cataphractii bits. They are very... experimental. They got me thinking about command squads. For a power weapon, 2+/5++, fearless bubble, W2 on the bearer, and WS5 they are only 5 points more than their equivalent in tartaros termis for 5 marines. I thought about loading them up with talons but that's just way too expensive. Same with tartaros and talons. Dark Furies are the only things that do talons well because because they're basically free. But a plasma pistol and power axe make them pretty spooky. This is assuming you take Maun for the artificer equipped marines. If you take a Praetor in Tartaros you can get a tartaros squad and save points but miss out on mauns rules. THen you trade the plasma pistol for a combi plasma; two shots on the charge vs one all game. Though that first charge is probably make or break anyway. And they get S6 axes so you could load for bear and get a forge lord for rad grenades and cut FnP. Then with the new apoth rules you can sneak a normal one in. I wouldn't go against deathshroud or justerian but they could cleave through a chunk of an army.

[Terminus]

Terminator and bike command squads are sweet.

 

I like Sky Slayers.

[Nova_chron]

I will be running a foot squad with Maun in my next game to see how it works out because my list has nothing he can go hide in with decapitation strike it's almost all infantry in pods or super aggressive infiltrates

[Nova_chron]

As far as heavy support slots go I've been using a fire raptor with good success as its usually the only air presence but I've been eyeing a leviathan or sicaran tank I usually don't have issues applying pressure quickly so the Levi isn't screaming to me anyone have thoughts?

[Lord Asvaldir]

Leviathan is an awesome choice for decapitation strike, since you get a real big heavy hitter out of your one heavy support slot. Since all the weapons are fairly short range, I'd take a pod. For weapons, always take phosphex, then for the ranged weapon arm I'd recommend the melta lance for anti vehicle, or the grav bombard for anti infantry. 

[Nusquam]

I love the leviathan, I do. But you have to make sure you can milk every point possible out of it and make sure it's supported too. It is not something you want to fire and forget. Because for those points you're in super heavy LoW territory. I would also never take one against Iron Warriors. Everything you'd want to grav will have an augery scanner and AT with overlapping scanner bubbles/AT from other units. But that's why Typhons exist I suppose.

[Nova_chron]

Lol probably

 

I'm just trying to think of what I can take to milk all I can from that one heavy slot and I like having aircraft to support my lists

Edited October 11, 2016 by Nova_chron

[SkimaskMohawk]

I play against IW 90% of the time and my leviathan has never had a problem. Augery scanners are only a problem if they've heavily invested into heavy support/havoc squads as nothing else really has the fire power to kill it, if they do that then they have no tyrants, no scorpii, no leviathan. Good use of terrain to limit enemy units vision on the pod is really important too. Mind you my buddy is kind of set into the mindset of "if it doesn't score I'm not taking it" for infantry so who knows what a realistic list looks like