[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[SkimaskMohawk]

I didn't think Deliverers were anything other than RG Terminators; you could just take a pride list and give them spartans.  

[Nusquam]

Deliverers were unique, even among terminators, and among the XIX. The were terran XIX of old, wore cataphractii, and were used by Horus(pre corax) as a spearhead teleport assault into the thickest fray. Then Corax only ever used them when he loosed his fury and absolutely had to murder everything in a local area via teleport assault; a unit he used sparingly not only due to their heavy warplate but their penchant for slaughter. They are perfect to be created into a unique unit. At the bare minimum they would need deep strike.

 

Which made me think about the ZM Assault Force RoW with Maun. You could deepstrike a beefy termi unit within Mauns bubble pretty easily and chunk something with plasma. Perfect use of psuedo Deliverers(Cataphractii) in this instance. The other benefit is better invuls for breachers. I've been on a ZM kick so I've been mulling it over. With infiltrate you could make sure you approach from a good avenue to keep your breachers in B2B. Destroyers and the like with AP3 or better blasts are going to be scary, but a 5++ from shooting and then probably a 5+ FnP from an apoth would help considerably.

[Nova_chron]

Yup it's one of those things that just kinda gets the itch going and you gotta scratch it... I've been going mostly infantry in my lists lately. Ohhhhhh I didn't think about that in ZM I will have to give that a noodle

[SkimaskMohawk]

Deliverers were unique, even among terminators, and among the XIX. The were terran XIX of old, wore cataphractii, and were used by Horus(pre corax) as a spearhead teleport assault into the thickest fray. Then Corax only ever used them when he loosed his fury and absolutely had to murder everything in a local area via teleport assault; a unit he used sparingly not only due to their heavy warplate but their penchant for slaughter. They are perfect to be created into a unique unit. At the bare minimum they would need deep strike.

 

I mean, thats pretty much just colorful description. They were Terran and they killed things...but that doesn't make them more special than other terminators. Teleporting doesn't mean much in fluff descriptions, especially when it comes to a primarch's flagship.

 

Consider that besides being angry, they're used just like normal terminators and then that all RG terminators have furious charge, there really isn't much of a distinction except for "they're terrans"

[defl0]

What are your guys thoughts on Dread's now that they pumped up the price on dread pods? 

 

I put an article together on the topic, but I'm interested in your guys thoughts

 

http://www.petehappens.com/2016/10/raven-guard-30k-all-dreadnoughts.html

[Lord Asvaldir]

The price hike does hurt, but for RoWs that have the restriction of only one heavy support like decapitation strike, or drop pod heavy rites, dreads in pods are still one of the best anti tani options that can deep strike and is outside of HS in the case of contemptors. Double grav in particular still hasn't lost its edge, though I prefer the cortus just since saving 40pts is fairly substantial. 

 

I noticed in your article you said you prefer the dreadclaw now, which I don't agree with in the case of all pods. Yeah, the dreadclaw will keep your dread safer for a turn, since it can jink and you need to blow up the pod before you can hit the dread, but that's at the cost of a turn of shooting. When my dread is armed with a melta lance or double grav, I want it shooting as soon as it drops in, which the dread drop pod allows me to do. 

[Nusquam]

 

Deliverers were unique, even among terminators, and among the XIX. The were terran XIX of old, wore cataphractii, and were used by Horus(pre corax) as a spearhead teleport assault into the thickest fray. Then Corax only ever used them when he loosed his fury and absolutely had to murder everything in a local area via teleport assault; a unit he used sparingly not only due to their heavy warplate but their penchant for slaughter. They are perfect to be created into a unique unit. At the bare minimum they would need deep strike.

 

I mean, thats pretty much just colorful description. They were Terran and they killed things...but that doesn't make them more special than other terminators. Teleporting doesn't mean much in fluff descriptions, especially when it comes to a primarch's flagship.

 

Consider that besides being angry, they're used just like normal terminators and then that all RG terminators have furious charge, there really isn't much of a distinction except for "they're terrans"

 

 

 

Any one of the current special units can be converted into colorful descriptions. It's completely subjective. It's the old saying "You can make anything sound dumb if you try hard enough." Some things got rules, others didn't. I would like Deliverers to get some in the future, as I personally feel they are vastly different in the RGs normal use and application as well as chararacter. You disagree and that's fine. That's all there is to it, there's no 'rule' or threshold as to what FW makes as special units because it's subjective to them too. And we aren't them.

 

As for dread pods. I've over them completely except perhaps for a Leviathan. The cost in points as well as resin is astronomically high. I still personally lean towards no in the case of the Leviathan. I have 5 knights that I could use for that point cost, looking at my Atrapos especially. The only reason I give the leviathan a case is because of its grav flux and phosphex. It has potential to delete a unit when it comes down and if used alongside multiple units it can be good. But it's a hard sell for me personally.

[Terminus]

^ You have to bring two knights to get the Atrapos in Legion lists, and the Leviathan in Pod is an incredible distraction carnifex that starts in your enemy's face. It can kill a knight on the charge, too, even when not sporting a melta lance.

 

Cortus dread talons outflanking can also be quite brutal, although that's an option mostly open to traitors only.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Terminus

[Nusquam]

Yeah, what I'm saying is at those points I might as well ally Knights since I'm essentially already buying one with slightly more potent weapons and less toughness. Or a Typhon/Stormsword for S10 ignores cover goodness at large and apoc blast sizes.

 

And that's way too expensive to be a distraction carnifex for my taste. You can't just throw away 400 points.

[Charlo]

I think the Deliverer's certainly could be something cool in a unique unit.

 

Precision deep strike, Ravens Talons, Hatred etc :D

 

While a Leviathan is expensive, the difference is that even just one round of shooting from it's pod has the potential to really hurt something.

 

Grav, Melta, Choom & Phosphex will rock your world son!

[Terminus]

Yeah, what I'm saying is at those points I might as well ally Knights since I'm essentially already buying one with slightly more potent weapons and less toughness. Or a Typhon/Stormsword for S10 ignores cover goodness at large and apoc blast sizes.

 

And that's way too expensive to be a distraction carnifex for my taste. You can't just throw away 400 points.

Just try it. You are not throwing anything away, it pays for itself 100% of the time.

[defl0]

"I noticed in your article you said you prefer the dreadclaw now, which I don't agree with in the case of all pods. Yeah, the dreadclaw will keep your dread safer for a turn, since it can jink and you need to blow up the pod before you can hit the dread, but that's at the cost of a turn of shooting. When my dread is armed with a melta lance or double grav, I want it shooting as soon as it drops in, which the dread drop pod allows me to do."

 

Am I missing something? With a anvillus, you can still disembark the turn it deepstrikes and shot right?

 

You just have the option to jink and fly sind if you want.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Yeah, you can disembark, but the DDP lets you shoot and still be protected from being bogged down in an assault which is nice. I guess the option to just chill in the pod instead is nice, but I almost always want to get my dreadnought using its ranged weapons as soon as possible. 

[Terminus]

You can step onto the doors in such a way that you can shoot at your target without drawing line of sight over the pod, while still having its protection on the flanks and rear. Not as significant with Leviathans and their 4+, but something to consider.

[Nusquam]

So I'm doing my best not to give into taking legion vets instead of Mor Deythan but I remembered that vets can take pods in decap strike. Sure you lose BS5, a one time twin linked, and stealth but you have sniper 100% of the time, so wounding on a 4+ with flamers against a rapier battery you deepstruck next to/being able to snipe out apoths/etc, and save about 100 points. Plus they can take power weapons.

 

I would still use Mor Deythan in ZM though for scout though.

 

I also remembered that DG can take chem munitions so they get shred on their sniper flamers. Disgusting.

[Terminus]

I would say Mor Deythan are now better off riding in Scouting Rhinos shooting BS5 plasmaguns out of the fire points, and then have some combi-flamers to toast a target of opportunity before hopefully being able to get back in the rhino next turn.

[defl0]

Vets sniper flamers are better in pods. 

 

Mor Deythan are better in rhinos. Don't forget SCOUT. It's really a big difference on the rhino front.

 

Plasma is done better by seekers or plasma tacs. 

 

I've been kicking around the idea for awhile too. It's the ROW that make the choice hard. 

 

Pride of the Legion: Opens up Vets as Troops. Flamer vets in Rhinos are very viable and you don't have a tac squad tax. But no cheap pods. 

Decap Strike: Opens up Vets in pods, but you still have a tac tax. You also pick up 87% chance of going first. 

Orbital Strike: Opens up Vets in pods AND Mor Deythan in pods. But you still have a troop tax and lose the support of group troops helping you stick the landing, and you lose the alpha strike potential. 

 

I've tried the flamer vets. They are very good and I like the extra hth support they have, but you definitely "feel" much many less wounds you dump onto your opponent. 25% less wounds is a lot when when you are hitting big squads. The twin linked really adds up.

 

So the way I feel about the two options is that Mor Deythan are the more offensive unit and the vets are better defensive unit. Sniper flamers are a scare thing to unleash as an overwatch item. 

 

Personally, I've started trying out Mor Deythan Meltas paired with vet flamers. Everyone in rhinos.

 

The other big piece of the puzzle is that taking sniper flamer vets opens up the elite slots for more elites like grav rapiers.  

[Nusquam]

Now that AMs are great I only take one tac squad. Scoring vox fodder.

 

See the thing is with the rhino, a smart opponent will castle up/mitigate your infiltrate+scouting mor deythan. It's happened to me more than once and they were a really expensive tac squad for the whole game. A couple other times their rhino got popped when I was going second and they just hung around in the boonies. Where as a vet squad in a pod will reach its target much easier and isn't a target if you get stuck going second. The best my MD have ever done was being deployed via Darkwing as a psuedo pod, but I reconverted my converted Darkwing into a Fire Raptor(again). I wish I could find a side by side of that new Corvus Blackstar against a 'Raven or 'Eagle...

 

I personally don't like Pride because it offers more VPs for your opponent and you don't have as high a chance to get first turn. If I had more drop pods I would do Orbital and put MD and Destroyers in pods and go to town. Until then I'm going to save MD for ZM and Strike missions. Vets in pods are just more cost effective with Decap strike.

[Terminus]

Assault Marines are definitely sweet with all those USRs.

 

@defl0: I guess that's something we will never agree on and I run contrary to the prevailing wisdom in thinking that all combi-flamer is a tremendous waste of an opportunity.

[SkimaskMohawk]

There's counter play to mor deythan, but there's also counter play to pods. Bring in vehicles, reserve, augery scanners, etc. Plenty of things a good player can do to waste a pods usefulness, especially if it's loaded up with anti infantry dudes

[Nusquam]

That's true of anything though against any unit. Then it comes down to adapting to the situation. That pod could land on an objective and wait to overwatch with sniper flamers rather than face down scanners. I'm of the idea that my opponent can much easier put a tac squad in front of his juicy targets and block a potential scouting rhino rather than block 360. But it also depends on the opponent, so YMMV. That tac squad that blocks might cause them to lose out on scoring an objective with them. Plus I feel better about having vets as expendable. I like to keep my spookymarines alive ha.

[SkimaskMohawk]

At least with the mor deythan you can see exactly what they're trying to block before you commit because of the nature of infiltrate and scout. With a pod you have to choose right away at deployment if the guys are going in it, and your opponent can prepare with the knowledge of a pod being in a valuable location or being off in the middle of nowhere

[Nusquam]

We can go in circles about theoretical deployment and lists because no matter what your opponent will know and be able to prepare during their deployment. There's pros and cons to each, some change with what your opponent plays, points level, etc. I'm going with I know I can do well, and that's drop pod strikes.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Isn't discussing tactics in theoretical situations the entire point of the thread? Potential uses and how your opponent can mitigate damage seems a key part of unit discussion.

[Terminus]

Exactly... what's the point of the last 52 pages with that attitude?  Drop pod assault is a potent form of warfare, it is also the least tactically nuanced and most subject to the vagaries of fate. Is my stuff going to come in when I want it? Am I going to scatter appropriately? Will there be an interceptor bubble? Will my alpha strike do enough damage to blunt the counter-attack or am I a fish that just dove into a barrel?