The Renegade Legion

[simison]

Alright, I need some help. 

 

Grifftofer, of heresy30k forums, has done me a huge favor and created a pdf of the Warden's Appendix. I've just finished the first draft, and would like some advice on a couple of choices. Basically, Mahtva is causing problems. I forgot to give him a Warlord Trait, and I want to change his 'Restless Conflagration' rule.

 

For the Warlord Trait, I am choosing it from the Personal Traits' table because that's how he leads. I'm divided between Master of Offence, Legendary Fighter, Tenacity, or Immovable Object. 

 

For his special RC rule, I've decided to remove it as the only shooting attack in CC. Instead, I want to give him one of the Pyromancy powers: either Fiery Form or Flame Breath. 

 

Advice please?

 

 

EDIT: Also, 500 posts! Woo! Nearing the finish line.

[simison]

Well, in lieu of the silence, I've chosen Immovable Object as Mahtva's WL (try moving fire) and Fuery Form as his signature power. With that, I've removed Soul Blaze from his staff, while giving him Smash to represent the extreme heat he wields.

 

Returning to the legion relic, I've created two versions so far.

 

1) 50 points for an army-wide Stubborn, and a shoring attack with the stats of a Volkite Charger with AP 2.

 

2) 50 points for 24 in-range Stubborn and a Volkite Charger with +1 S, AP 2, +2 shots, and an additional 6 inch range.

 

In other words is it primarily a morale booster or a lightning blaster? I'm leaning toward morale, but I'm not sure how to price Stubborn.

Well, in lieu of the silence, I've chosen Immovable Object as Mahtva's WL (try moving fire) and Fuery Form as his signature power. With that, I've removed Soul Blaze from his staff, while giving him Smash to represent the extreme heat he wields.

 

Returning to the legion relic, I've created two versions so far.

 

1) 50 points for an army-wide Stubborn, and a shoring attack with the stats of a Volkite Charger with AP 2.

 

2) 50 points for 24 in-range Stubborn and a Volkite Charger with +1 S, AP 2, +2 shots, and an additional 6 inch range.

 

In other words is it primarily a morale booster or a lightning blaster? I'm leaning toward morale, but I'm not sure how to price Stubborn.

[simison]

Progress moving slowly. Here's an early template of the relic.

 

Legion Relic:

 

The Aquila of the II^nd Legion

 

The final sign that a Legiones Astartes was ready for deployment was when the Emperor bequeathed an Imperial Eagle. A standard with a golden eagle, wings open as it glared forward, ready for war. Not only a powerful symbol, the Emperor imbued each Aquila with a small measure of his power. Over the years, various fates have be felled these Eagles. Some forever secured in reliquaries. Others lost, a rare few tossed aside. Yet, the Halcyon Wardens still carried theirs into battle, a powerful link to their origins and assurance of their loyalty.

 

The Aquila provides all Halcyon Warden units within twelve inches of the relic with the Stubborn special rule. Additionally, the relic bearer may choose to use to activate the hidden power within the Aquila as a shooting attack in lieu of his own. The shooting profile is as follows:

  

                                         Range       S         AP        Type

Wrath of the Emperor         30'            7          2         Assault 4, Deflagrate

 

This relic costs 50 points and replaces one weapon on the current model. Only Praetors may purchase the relic.

 

 

 

 

[Keep in mind, I've yet to read Conquest, so I have no idea what the actual format looks like. Feel free to point out mistakes.]

[simison]

So, quick question. 

 

Out of the four Chaos gods, which one do you think would have the best chance of corrupting Alexandros and the Wardens? 

[Slips]

I mean, Tzeentch is the obvious answer. Maybe Slaanesh?

[Raktra]

Yeah, Tzeentch feels correct to me. Something like "I grant you the knowledge of all futures" *mental overload* ":cuss it, villain time". Kinda like Festus.

[simison]

I am stuck between Tzeentch and Slaneesh. Tzeentch for the obvious: psykers and divination galore. Slaneesh because of the Warden emphasis on their humanity & the pursuit of other activities besides war. The idea being that the desire to experience other aspects of life could lead them down a darker path like the Emperor's Children or the Donian Heresy's White Scars.

 

The Wardens' struggle with insanity doesn't seem to lend itself to any specific deity, since it comes with the territory of Chaos. Unless, I'm misjudging Chaos itself. 

[Slips]

Hmm, Chaos Undivided might work. It might even be the easiest route; more so than Tzeentch. Why? Because of the multiple paths system you've implemented.

 

Each Path could, individually, follow a specific Chaos God but on a whole the Legion and maybe the most elite are of Chaos Undivided?

 

Btw, Relic Looks good to me, no complaints.

 

..Though I still kinda want to see my Hard Light Wall put to use...

[Tychii]

Only issue with the relic is that it is total overpowered as is right now. The other relics don't really come close to the power that thing produces for the he points. If it's the gun you want it wod still be too strong without the 12" stubborn bubble imo. You could use it as is if it were one use only, or perhaps if you made it heavy 4 instead of assault.

But I still have problems with a 30" assault plasma gun, with 4 shots, deflagrate, and no gets hot.

[simison]

*To Slipstreams* Fair enough. I'm hoping FW releases more legion relics so I can add to the Wardens, and your relic is still on my mind in that regards.

 

I wonder what it would look like if all 4 chaos gods tried to corrupt one being at the same time...

[simison]

Tychii, first off, I'm really amused because you apparently posted the same second I did, because I didn't get an alert of an incoming message.

 

Next, you make a fair point. I basing it off a volkite charger then imagined it improved by the Emperor. My main struggle is I'm not sure how to price the Stubborn benefit. (As hinted by me making the benefit army wide.) I'm told 12' was a much more reasonable range, and had this half-idea that the 50 points was split between the gun and the morale boost. But, you are right, if I just priced all of the upgrades at 5 points a piece, it is overpowered. 

 

Hmmm. If I limit myself to 15 points of upgrades, I would reduce the range back to 24', lower the strength back to 6, which leaves the AP and number of shots. I think evoking a lightning strike is more fitting, so drop the the shots to Assault 2, and leave the AP 2. Can never have too many 2's in the 2nd legion. (Ok, I'll stop now.) How does that look?

 

Also, thanks for commenting!

[Tychii]

It is tricky to price stubborn, a comparison would be the legion Vexila it's about 10 points a squad. Also the command squad banner which is fearless 6" is something you can aim for range.

 

If you really want to lightning strike I would just take the stubborn bubble away, and just make it a gun. The other thing is that the charger is a 15" range, which is why it gains assault. The plasma blaster is also a good gauge for assault weapons

 

If it's the banner you want I would have something like stubborn bubble, then a bonus once a game active. Like blinds all flying units, or flying units shooting at this unit are snap shots, maybe prevents deep striking within 18" or mishap, all one turn per game.

 

Don't mean to be critical, it's just that some of the relics are quite weak, ex. Nostraman mancatcher (chain glaive, loses rend, gains attack loss test)

So making your own item is fine, but because you get to focus it for what you want you already gain, so the points costing is quite difficult unless you aren't adding many bonuses.

The key is to try to make sure people don't feel ripped off while playing you ;")

[Augustus]

Might I reccomend that the banner is AP 4 but invulnerable saves may not be taken?

 

You make me want to start this legion! If I don't get DA rules soon I may well might :)

[simison]

It is tricky to price stubborn, a comparison would be the legion Vexila it's about 10 points a squad. Also the command squad banner which is fearless 6" is something you can aim for range.

If you really want to lightning strike I would just take the stubborn bubble away, and just make it a gun. The other thing is that the charger is a 15" range, which is why it gains assault. The plasma blaster is also a good gauge for assault weapons

If it's the banner you want I would have something like stubborn bubble, then a bonus once a game active. Like blinds all flying units, or flying units shooting at this unit are snap shots, maybe prevents deep striking within 18" or mishap, all one turn per game.

Don't mean to be critical, it's just that some of the relics are quite weak, ex. Nostraman mancatcher (chain glaive, loses rend, gains attack loss test)

So making your own item is fine, but because you get to focus it for what you want you already gain, so the points costing is quite difficult unless you aren't adding many bonuses.

The key is to try to make sure people don't feel ripped off while playing you ;")

No worries about being critical. I'm a veteran 40k player, but still a novice 30k player, so I prefer hearing from other perspectives on the matter. And can certainly agree that it's important to balance the rules, else no one would be willing to play against the Wardens, which would negate the entire project. I'll definitely check the command squad banner when I get back to my laptop for point ranges, because the Aquila is very much a banner first, a weapon second.

Might I reccomend that the banner is AP 4 but invulnerable saves may not be taken?

You make me want to start this legion! If I don't get DA rules soon I may well might

Since D-weapons no longer Invul saves, I'm wary of crossing that line now. I know Astorath used to force reroll successful Invul saves, but I don't know if he still does that or if anything else in the game affects Invul saves now with 7th edition here.

That would be awesome. The only downside is I don't have much in the way of pictures to show you.

[Raktra]

3 AP3 shots wouldn't be too bad, maybe at S6. So Terminators can endure it, and AdMech/Iron Hands/Fists are more resistant.

[spu00sed]

What about the following for the relic

 

50pts, aquila. May only be chosen by the standard bearer of a command squad. The standard retains all its previous special rules.

 

The emperor blessed each of the aquila as that he gifted to his legion. Each aquila contained a small portion of his power. The Aquila gifted to the semi d legion co rained his wrath. Those with the sight could discern Storm clouds rolling about its eagle.

 

The Aquila has th following profile

S7 AP5 assault D3+1, rending, deflagrate, emperors wrath

 

Emperors wrath. The Aquila can only be used in the following instance:

 

to fire in overwatch. However it may fire at all units charging the bearer, or the assult he is in.

At initiative step 10 in an assault the Aquila will attack one unit with at least one model in base contact with the bearer.

 

All attacks from the Aquila hit automatically.

[Tychii]

The word bearers legion relic makes successful invulnerable force to be retolled, but is once a game and affects all units under the aoe.

 

You could look at that as something to base it off of.

I was also thinking of it getting slammed into the ground before an assault and then it shooting a seismic charge it disrupt all the defenders.

 

Something like during the assault when you activate this, it causes strike down to the effected squad. The banner gets left behind at that point and must be left as a marker and can't be picked up.

Not too strong, but a fun thing to activate to make sure you smash people's faces in assault.

[simison]

Those are all fair options.

 

Though I am committed to the lightning aspect over the seismic attack. I am definitely considering the shooting attack to be a one-use, the idea being that its a very serious matter to invoke the power within the Aquila, so it's only done rarely. Although I am tickled by the idea a shooting attack that only happens in Overwatch. Rending might be a nice way to compromise on the AP debate.

 

I should be home in a couple of hours, so I can figure out the Stubborn point cost side.

[simison]

*Le sigh*  Don't suppose anyone knows a unit that can buy a legion banner? B/c the Command Squad auto-takes it, which means they don't list a price. If I had to guess, it's either 20-30 points. The Standard Bearer has two stat upgrades, which can be taken out for 10 points, leaving 90 points left. Since the banner is still in play, each member can't be worth 30 points, but they're definitely not cheaper than 20 points since that's how much it is to buy a new member. If a standard CS marine is 20 points, that would mean the banner is worth 30 points. If 25 points per marine, then it's 15 points.

 

I'm leaning toward 30 points, since Fearless is a much rarer (consequently, more valuable) upgrade.

[Raktra]

The WB relic reduces invulnerable saves, not re-rolls (bastards have been reading my damn thread, haven't they?).

If we go off 40k for the banner, I think the banner is about 30pts (I swear to God the Dark Angels have/had something like this for that price). The Standard of the Emperor Ascendant in the Marines codex could be a good analogue, too. EDIT: analogue for your banner, I mean. Just different phases.

[simison]

The WB relic reduces invulnerable saves, not re-rolls (bastards have been reading my damn thread, haven't they?).

Ha ha, I've felt like this before. Much less justification since I was simply ignorant. Didn't realize that there was elements of Ancient Greece in the IF or that the Myrmidons were a Admech unit. Oh well.

 

So, I've narrowed it down to four versions. In this case, I'm pricing the banner side at 30 points since it's double the range, but Stubborn instead of Fearless, which leaves me 20 points to work with.

 

Version 1) 12' Stubborn and a Volkite Charger profile but with AP 3. Closest to my original design but more fairly priced.

 

Version 2) 12' Stubborn, but the lightning attack becomes a one-use but is buffed up. Say Charger shot at AP 3, but Assault 4 or maybe at longer range.

 

Version 3) lose the lightning attack, and throw it all into the banner. Granting Stubborn at 24' or 18'

 

Version 4) Keep it at 30 points with Stubborn 12' range. Simpler, requires more finesse to wield, but an easier, if plainer, investment.

[Slips]

Do you view this relic as a more offensive or defensive one in terms of usage? Deciding that might help narrow down the decision / give me more ideas.

[simison]

Since I'm still hopeful that FW will add more relics to the legion and yours is very much defensive, this one should be more offensive. Especially since this was during the early & aggressive days of the II legion.

[StoneSentinels]

If you want it offensive but are worried about being OP then single use version 2 is probably your best choice. As a pre-charge almost grenade type thing that puts the enemy on its back foot in preparation for the charge. (it also means you are slightly disadvantaged as you will be removing models from the front of the enemy unit and so your charge range is increased)

[simison]

After giving it a day of deliberation, I've decided to go with Version 1. Keeps it offensive, but doesn't go too crazy with it. Additionally, I'm allowing it to be fielded by Praetors, Centurions, and can replace the Legion banner in the command squad.

 

Back to the prior topic, I originally asked about the possible corruption because I have a solid idea of the Wardens' timeline, except the catalyst event that causes them to go rogue. I now have a good idea about it, and have been advised to write it while its still fresh in my mind.