[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It has worked well for me but that could be due to play style more than list building.

[Slips]

Well, in a 10 man Squad with Primus and Siggy, the templar pretty much folded vs Cataphractii + Praetor + Primus due to Termy Sarge Challenge Blocking Siggy.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The wounds spill over from the challenge right ? Having to reroll 4++ doesn't seem all that much tbh.

[Lord Blackwood]

until  the guy denies sigismund the challenge and  he loses the ability to force them to reroll the 4++   sure 

Slips is not wrong, competent opponents dont just let you charge sigismund into units of stuff and slaughter them via throwing away a character  in a challenge he cant win. Templar brethren are great when fighting things they can overwhelm , against a full unit of terminators they will struggle take for example Fire Drakes and a Mantle of the Elder Drake Praetor that can be a really rough matchup because the Firedrakes will kill the Templar brethren there quite easily while sig cant instant death the  Preator who may or may not tank him for a round but a round is all he really needs , then sigismund is trapped there with a bunch of firedrakes who sure cant ID him but could still take him out. 

Its easy to believe that Sigismund and TB are this mulching unit because against mid to low tier infantry and some lesser well equipped high end infantry they are but you are almost always going to do better with Terminators than with TB. 
 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Bladewolf

[Slips]

#1

If Siggy and Templar got the Charge

Siggy: ~2.9 Unsaved (all siggy calcs have a 50% increase due his forcing successful invulns to be re-rolled and a 4++)

Templar: ~2.67 w/o FNP or ~1.79 with FNP

Champ and Primus: ~2.4

Total: ~7.09 with FNP dealing only ~4.69 wound before Terminators hit. So 5-6 Terminators are hitting back.

 

#2

If they didnt:

Siggy: ~2.1 Unsaved

Templar: ~2.0 w/o FNP or ~1.34 with FNP

Champ and Primus: ~2.2

Total: ~5.64 w/ FNP however you only deal ~3.44 Wounds before the Termies hit. So you're getting struck back by 6-7 Terminators who got the charge

 

#3

Now, if we try this again with Terminators Equipped with Stormshields getting the Charge:

Sigismund: ~2.9 as above.

Primus:  ~1.1

Termies: ~6.25

Total: ~10.25 all hits being S8 OR ID, they'd get no FNP. Only Siggy is striking first so 7-8 Terminators Strike Back.

 

#4

Without the Charge:

Sigismund: ~2.1 as above.

Primus: ~0.833

Termies: ~4.267

Total: ~7.2 Same as above all being S8 or ID. Only Siggy striking first so 8-9 terminators get to strike back who got the Charge

 

However, while the Templar do get some kills in before the Terminators strike, they only have a 5++ while the Terminators strike at the same time as their opponents have a 3++

So:

• 6 Termies hitting Templar back w/ Power Fists vs 5++ : ~3.33 ( Scenario #1)
• 7 Termies hitting Templar back w/ Power Fists vs 5++ : ~5.83 ( Scenario #2)
• 8 Termies hitting Terminators back w/ Power Fists vs 3++ : ~2.22 ( Scenario #3)
• 9 Termies hitting Terminators back w/ Power Fists vs 3++ : ~3.75 ( Scenario #4)

All in all:

• Scenario #1: ~7 Unsaved Wounds vs Termies, ~3.33 Unsaved Wounds from Termies
• Scenario #2: ~5.6 Unsaved Wounds vs Termies, ~5.83 Unsaved Wounds from Termies (charged)
• Scenario #3: ~10 Unsaved Wounds vs Termies, ~2.22 Unsaved Wounds from Termies
• Scenario #4: ~7 Unsaved Wounds vs Termies, ~3.75 unsaved Wounds from Termies (charged)

So from a PURELY AVERAGE DICE ROLLING PERSPECTIVE, the Terminators Win out. The Templar are definitely no Slouches and if you have Papa Dorn on the Table for +D3 Combat Res, you're probably not losing combat. If they aren't Fearless or Stubborn, you're also probably sweeping them except for in Scenario #2 where you might lose combat. Sigismund is Fearless so you wont get swept.

 

This also assuming that Both Squads are accompanied by a Primus Medicae in all scenarios.

 

Now, my math isn't the greatest so there might be mistakes in there somewhere. 

 

This is also all straight up averages so RNGesus may/will be a deciding factor on how any of these scenarios actually play out.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Slipstreams

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I run both TB and terms so to have options what to attack with which units. I like TB since Sigs makes them troops. Terms with shields you can't go wrong but it's not something every legion has access to... :)

[Lord Blackwood]

So the Choice is between 

6 Veteran Tacticals   with a Heavy Bolter  and a Combi Plasma  and AA on the sargent  in  a Rhino  with Sniper 


vs 

5 Tactical Support Squad  4 Plasma Guns   Combi Plasma and Artificer Armor on the Sargent. 


Consider it a choice in a vacuum.  Which is the superior choice? 

[Slips]

Tac Supports. More consistent damage output.

[Lord Blackwood]

Let it never be said I  dont listen to you Slips  = n =  

[Lachdannan]

I was after some advice for loadout. I have 10 Phalanx Warders to make up, and was wandering what was the best way to build them. Should I take a few power axes and plasma guns? Or is it better to just run them stock then throw a character in there.

 

Any thoughts would be most appreciated. This is one of the last units I need to make for my Fists.

[Slips]

I was after some advice for loadout. I have 10 Phalanx Warders to make up, and was wandering what was the best way to build them. Should I take a few power axes and plasma guns? Or is it better to just run them stock then throw a character in there.

 

Any thoughts would be most appreciated. This is one of the last units I need to make for my Fists.

Due to how I built them I'm rolling: 10 men, 2 Plasmaguns, 4 Axes Sarge with Artificer and Thunderhammer.

 

They can do work and do well bullying non-tda units but can also slow down or dent TDA units.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Lord Blackwood]

I set mine up more for ZM  with 2 melta guns ( cause contemptors need to die  and you have a shot of firing at full BS  in overwatch due to the rules in ZM )   sarge with AA  and a Power Axe 

[pathatrick]

As far as breachers go in ZM, do graviton guns preform better than melta? I would say yes if they were not heavy. I like leaving difficult terrain blasts all over. Getting into melta range is dicey at best.

[Lord Blackwood]

I find myself my boys in melta range quite often  either by their own volition or for things coming toward them. Grav is fine but  I just prefer the melta guns as I feel like they are more useful  vs a wider array of targets. 

[K3nn3rs]

I've seen a few IF lists now with terminator command squads with storm shields - is this a valid option? I thought it was just an option for legion terminator squads...

 

I really hope it's a valid choice as I really want to run my own 'IF elite terminator' unit - WS5, fearless (banner), shields and power axes (looks cool), probably T5 from stone gauntlet with a primes medicae (shield/ chain fist) and tooled up praetor (master crafted paragon blade/ shield/ digital lasers) in a spartan.

 

Fingers crossed!

[Slips]

Totally valid.

[Lachdannan]

 

I was after some advice for loadout. I have 10 Phalanx Warders to make up, and was wandering what was the best way to build them. Should I take a few power axes and plasma guns? Or is it better to just run them stock then throw a character in there.

 

Any thoughts would be most appreciated. This is one of the last units I need to make for my Fists.

Due to how I built them I'm rolling: 10 men, 2 Plasmaguns, 4 Axes Sarge with Artificer and Thunderhammer.

 

They can do work and do well bullying non-tda units but can also slow down or dent TDA units.

 

Cool, thanks for the input.

 

I set mine up more for ZM  with 2 melta guns ( cause contemptors need to die  and you have a shot of firing at full BS  in overwatch due to the rules in ZM )   sarge with AA  and a Power Axe 

Nice.

 

I must confess I am leaning more towards the melta guns, as I have had (numerous) bad experiences using plasma, and it would be the highest insult to these veterans to kill themselves everytime they fire. Might throw the power axes in their to make people nervous about charging them, and I already have a good idea for the sgt.

 

Thanks for the advice guys.

[Slips]

OUR SNIPER VETS JUST GOT EEEEEVEN BETTER BOYS AND GIRLS! They're now cheaper and the Sniper Option gives Outflank too! 

 

AHAHAHAHAHH! >:-D The standard core to my list is suddenly better and cheaper and necessitates no change at all!

[Lord Blackwood]

I hit on 2's I  wound on 4's  and now I can come in from reserves  and demo people who dont expect it D:  LET THE VET SPAM BEGIN 

[Slips]

ALSO! Our Primus Medicae's are now the only one who can take Power Fists haha!

 

Since they still have the option for Thunderhammers, they can take Sol Gloves. Otherwise, no Fists, Chain Fists, Boarding Shields or Twin-Claws. Looks like I won't need to be changing my Primus' gear!

 

Also, our Tac Squads just got that much more efficient what with being 125 for 10 before upgrades and BS5. Neat.

 

Otherwise, everything else is a generic change that doesn't affect us all that much except for Breachers being 200 flat, going down 25 making them less of a hassle to take in Stone Gauntlet Lists.

[Lachdannan]

I was very happy to learn I can still use my primaris as I have equipped him. That and cheap squads and land raiders is awesome. Very happy with the changes.

[DietOfLiquor]

The changes are very nice. And good just in time for my imperial fists to begin taking off soon for my shatter legions of UM/WS/IF. Need a bunch of Phalanx and a Mastadon to outflank now.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here Is my latest Batrep versus Iron Hands...

 

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2016/07/30k-batrep-templars-vs-iron-hands.html

[Lord Blackwood]

In my last zone mortalis game I got a lot of mileage out of the legion rule for +1 bs on bolters as I brought a lot of Cataphractii. I am beginning to think that I need to give vets and seekers another pass for that game type especially with the buffs to seekers specialist ammo.

[Slips]

Yeah, BS6 Scorpius Bolts in ZM? Nasty.

 

BS6 Tempest Bolts (Ie they never scatter) hilarity ensues especially if you play with the Rending ZM rules.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Slipstreams