BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 It has worked well for me but that could be due to play style more than list building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted June 19, 2016 Author Share Posted June 19, 2016 Well, in a 10 man Squad with Primus and Siggy, the templar pretty much folded vs Cataphractii + Praetor + Primus due to Termy Sarge Challenge Blocking Siggy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 The wounds spill over from the challenge right ? Having to reroll 4++ doesn't seem all that much tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) until the guy denies sigismund the challenge and he loses the ability to force them to reroll the 4++ sure Slips is not wrong, competent opponents dont just let you charge sigismund into units of stuff and slaughter them via throwing away a character in a challenge he cant win. Templar brethren are great when fighting things they can overwhelm , against a full unit of terminators they will struggle take for example Fire Drakes and a Mantle of the Elder Drake Praetor that can be a really rough matchup because the Firedrakes will kill the Templar brethren there quite easily while sig cant instant death the Preator who may or may not tank him for a round but a round is all he really needs , then sigismund is trapped there with a bunch of firedrakes who sure cant ID him but could still take him out. Its easy to believe that Sigismund and TB are this mulching unit because against mid to low tier infantry and some lesser well equipped high end infantry they are but you are almost always going to do better with Terminators than with TB. Edited June 19, 2016 by Bladewolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted June 19, 2016 Author Share Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) #1 If Siggy and Templar got the Charge Siggy: ~2.9 Unsaved (all siggy calcs have a 50% increase due his forcing successful invulns to be re-rolled and a 4++) Templar: ~2.67 w/o FNP or ~1.79 with FNP Champ and Primus: ~2.4 Total: ~7.09 with FNP dealing only ~4.69 wound before Terminators hit. So 5-6 Terminators are hitting back. #2 If they didnt: Siggy: ~2.1 Unsaved Templar: ~2.0 w/o FNP or ~1.34 with FNP Champ and Primus: ~2.2 Total: ~5.64 w/ FNP however you only deal ~3.44 Wounds before the Termies hit. So you're getting struck back by 6-7 Terminators who got the charge #3 Now, if we try this again with Terminators Equipped with Stormshields getting the Charge: Sigismund: ~2.9 as above. Primus: ~1.1 Termies: ~6.25 Total: ~10.25 all hits being S8 OR ID, they'd get no FNP. Only Siggy is striking first so 7-8 Terminators Strike Back. #4 Without the Charge: Sigismund: ~2.1 as above. Primus: ~0.833 Termies: ~4.267 Total: ~7.2 Same as above all being S8 or ID. Only Siggy striking first so 8-9 terminators get to strike back who got the Charge However, while the Templar do get some kills in before the Terminators strike, they only have a 5++ while the Terminators strike at the same time as their opponents have a 3++ So: 6 Termies hitting Templar back w/ Power Fists vs 5++ : ~3.33 ( Scenario #1) 7 Termies hitting Templar back w/ Power Fists vs 5++ : ~5.83 ( Scenario #2) 8 Termies hitting Terminators back w/ Power Fists vs 3++ : ~2.22 ( Scenario #3) 9 Termies hitting Terminators back w/ Power Fists vs 3++ : ~3.75 ( Scenario #4) All in all: Scenario #1: ~7 Unsaved Wounds vs Termies, ~3.33 Unsaved Wounds from Termies Scenario #2: ~5.6 Unsaved Wounds vs Termies, ~5.83 Unsaved Wounds from Termies (charged) Scenario #3: ~10 Unsaved Wounds vs Termies, ~2.22 Unsaved Wounds from Termies Scenario #4: ~7 Unsaved Wounds vs Termies, ~3.75 unsaved Wounds from Termies (charged) So from a PURELY AVERAGE DICE ROLLING PERSPECTIVE, the Terminators Win out. The Templar are definitely no Slouches and if you have Papa Dorn on the Table for +D3 Combat Res, you're probably not losing combat. If they aren't Fearless or Stubborn, you're also probably sweeping them except for in Scenario #2 where you might lose combat. Sigismund is Fearless so you wont get swept. This also assuming that Both Squads are accompanied by a Primus Medicae in all scenarios. Now, my math isn't the greatest so there might be mistakes in there somewhere. This is also all straight up averages so RNGesus may/will be a deciding factor on how any of these scenarios actually play out. Edited June 19, 2016 by Slipstreams Lord Blackwood 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 I run both TB and terms so to have options what to attack with which units. I like TB since Sigs makes them troops. Terms with shields you can't go wrong but it's not something every legion has access to... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 So the Choice is between 6 Veteran Tacticals with a Heavy Bolter and a Combi Plasma and AA on the sargent in a Rhino with Sniper vs 5 Tactical Support Squad 4 Plasma Guns Combi Plasma and Artificer Armor on the Sargent. Consider it a choice in a vacuum. Which is the superior choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 Tac Supports. More consistent damage output. Caillum 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Let it never be said I dont listen to you Slips = n = Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdannan Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I was after some advice for loadout. I have 10 Phalanx Warders to make up, and was wandering what was the best way to build them. Should I take a few power axes and plasma guns? Or is it better to just run them stock then throw a character in there. Any thoughts would be most appreciated. This is one of the last units I need to make for my Fists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 (edited) I was after some advice for loadout. I have 10 Phalanx Warders to make up, and was wandering what was the best way to build them. Should I take a few power axes and plasma guns? Or is it better to just run them stock then throw a character in there. Any thoughts would be most appreciated. This is one of the last units I need to make for my Fists. Due to how I built them I'm rolling: 10 men, 2 Plasmaguns, 4 Axes Sarge with Artificer and Thunderhammer. They can do work and do well bullying non-tda units but can also slow down or dent TDA units. Edited July 5, 2016 by Slipstreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I set mine up more for ZM with 2 melta guns ( cause contemptors need to die and you have a shot of firing at full BS in overwatch due to the rules in ZM ) sarge with AA and a Power Axe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathatrick Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 As far as breachers go in ZM, do graviton guns preform better than melta? I would say yes if they were not heavy. I like leaving difficult terrain blasts all over. Getting into melta range is dicey at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I find myself my boys in melta range quite often either by their own volition or for things coming toward them. Grav is fine but I just prefer the melta guns as I feel like they are more useful vs a wider array of targets. Flint13 and Lachdannan 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K3nn3rs Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 I've seen a few IF lists now with terminator command squads with storm shields - is this a valid option? I thought it was just an option for legion terminator squads... I really hope it's a valid choice as I really want to run my own 'IF elite terminator' unit - WS5, fearless (banner), shields and power axes (looks cool), probably T5 from stone gauntlet with a primes medicae (shield/ chain fist) and tooled up praetor (master crafted paragon blade/ shield/ digital lasers) in a spartan. Fingers crossed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 Totally valid. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdannan Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 I was after some advice for loadout. I have 10 Phalanx Warders to make up, and was wandering what was the best way to build them. Should I take a few power axes and plasma guns? Or is it better to just run them stock then throw a character in there. Any thoughts would be most appreciated. This is one of the last units I need to make for my Fists. Due to how I built them I'm rolling: 10 men, 2 Plasmaguns, 4 Axes Sarge with Artificer and Thunderhammer. They can do work and do well bullying non-tda units but can also slow down or dent TDA units. Cool, thanks for the input. I set mine up more for ZM with 2 melta guns ( cause contemptors need to die and you have a shot of firing at full BS in overwatch due to the rules in ZM ) sarge with AA and a Power Axe Nice. I must confess I am leaning more towards the melta guns, as I have had (numerous) bad experiences using plasma, and it would be the highest insult to these veterans to kill themselves everytime they fire. Might throw the power axes in their to make people nervous about charging them, and I already have a good idea for the sgt. Thanks for the advice guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 15, 2016 Author Share Posted July 15, 2016 OUR SNIPER VETS JUST GOT EEEEEVEN BETTER BOYS AND GIRLS! They're now cheaper and the Sniper Option gives Outflank too! AHAHAHAHAHH! >:-D The standard core to my list is suddenly better and cheaper and necessitates no change at all! Phalanx Warder 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 I hit on 2's I wound on 4's and now I can come in from reserves and demo people who dont expect it D: LET THE VET SPAM BEGIN Tiger9gamer 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 15, 2016 Author Share Posted July 15, 2016 ALSO! Our Primus Medicae's are now the only one who can take Power Fists haha! Since they still have the option for Thunderhammers, they can take Sol Gloves. Otherwise, no Fists, Chain Fists, Boarding Shields or Twin-Claws. Looks like I won't need to be changing my Primus' gear! Also, our Tac Squads just got that much more efficient what with being 125 for 10 before upgrades and BS5. Neat. Otherwise, everything else is a generic change that doesn't affect us all that much except for Breachers being 200 flat, going down 25 making them less of a hassle to take in Stone Gauntlet Lists. Lachdannan 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lachdannan Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 I was very happy to learn I can still use my primaris as I have equipped him. That and cheap squads and land raiders is awesome. Very happy with the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DietOfLiquor Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 The changes are very nice. And good just in time for my imperial fists to begin taking off soon for my shatter legions of UM/WS/IF. Need a bunch of Phalanx and a Mastadon to outflank now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Here Is my latest Batrep versus Iron Hands... http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/2016/07/30k-batrep-templars-vs-iron-hands.html Lachdannan 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 In my last zone mortalis game I got a lot of mileage out of the legion rule for +1 bs on bolters as I brought a lot of Cataphractii. I am beginning to think that I need to give vets and seekers another pass for that game type especially with the buffs to seekers specialist ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 16, 2016 Author Share Posted July 16, 2016 (edited) Yeah, BS6 Scorpius Bolts in ZM? Nasty. BS6 Tempest Bolts (Ie they never scatter) hilarity ensues especially if you play with the Rending ZM rules. Edited July 16, 2016 by Slipstreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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