[HH1.0] Sons of Horus Tactica

[depthcharge12]

Or a combi-plasma reaver squad. Same shooty performance but double the melee, scoring etc.

 

 

Maloghurst is not a great character in his own right. He is little better than a similarly equipped sarge. You want to lean on his Bearer of the Eye rule to get cost out of him.

Yeah my plan is to use him to lockdown a despoiler squad with fearless and give extra power sword attacks.

[Emperor's Furor]

Hey guys I'm about to start a SoH army using the Betrayal at Calth box and I was wondering how I should put the marines together. At the moment I was planning on making two units of 15 tactical marines with sergeants carrying power swords, but I know there's the option for heavy weapons to make veteran squads, what do you think? Stick with the large squads?

[PastelAvenger]

I can not stress how good Combi Reavers are, I run a unit of 9 with a Master of Signal in most games.

 

Stick them in a Dreadclaw and you have a dead Squad or Tank turn 1 in most cases. Also as it was pointed out the added benefit of being able to assault most units after that and cause some damage.

 

When you buy combi weapons you get Banestrike rounds as well so the unit is still a threat after you've blown your choice of Combi-Weapon. I really do find Reavers quite useful but like every Sons of Horus unit a little over priced.

[depthcharge12]

I can not stress how good Combi Reavers are, I run a unit of 9 with a Master of Signal in most games.

 

Stick them in a Dreadclaw and you have a dead Squad or Tank turn 1 in most cases. Also as it was pointed out the added benefit of being able to assault most units after that and cause some damage.

 

When you buy combi weapons you get Banestrike rounds as well so the unit is still a threat after you've blown your choice of Combi-Weapon. I really do find Reavers quite useful but like every Sons of Horus unit a little over priced.

I thought they were listed as combi bolters not combi weapons. Is that a thing or has it been FAQ'd?

 

@WoT

I'd stick with big squads, or you could even run them as Reavers :) you'd likely get more use out of them.

Edited December 29, 2015 by depthcharge12

[norngahl]

The problem I have with Maloghurst is:

He has I4 and 2 attacks with a Powersword. So almost no damageoutput. Maybe a marine per round. He has 3+/5++. So any character he touches will pound him to death. Any ap3 plate (sorpius, vindicator, typhon, orbital and so on) will kill him outright with no chance to survive, beside this lousy 5++. When you just take his profile, he is a centurion with +1 wound but with worse offense. So 50 points. RF and PS are 25 points on top. So 75 points. You are paying 65 points to get reavers as troops, a ROW (delegatus upgrade, 25 points worth) and 1 fearless unit.

You can build from that- deepstriking reavers drop list. Reavers are only better in 1 task compared to Veterans- slicing through 4+ in CC. So unless you face a lot of 4+ and tailor your list around it, why ever take mal? His body is just HQ tax, fearless is nice but often overrated imho (gear for winning combat, don't build tarpit units from bloody expensive marines) and reavers are worse veterans. So unless you want to drop chainaxes, mal has little use for me. A praetor is 10points more expensive (PB,IH) and has 2+/4++, 4 attacks at I5 with ap2 and makes veterans troops. Pretty much the same beside possibility to drop thr whoke army with vets. Win combats. Don't prepare for loosing them. And don't just pay tax for a hq body on the field.

 

My problems with reavers:

As I mentioned before, they are less good veterans. Outflanking lets them be a juivy target in the enemy deployment zone as they can't assault immediatly even when in range, meltabombs are missing (huge versatility bonus vs MCs and SHs), vexilla is missing (!!). For what? Chainaxes. Unless you face a 4+ army, they will rately be worth it. Yeah you can drown them in tools.. but I'm with hesh here. More units are always better..

 

Beside Horus, FW really failed at good SoH chars and units.

 

Heres your chance FW, give me an amazing aximand and tormageddon, falkus and noctuae.

[depthcharge12]

I don't think that's completely fair to Reavers, they also can go to 15 man squads and take jump packs. Chainaxes might be nice if you play in a tournie environment against AdMech/Auxilia/Militia.

 

Also, taking Reavers as troops is better because you won't give up a VP when you lose 2 vet squads as in a PotL list (not saying you won't take more or terminators).

[Hesh Kadesh]

The problem I have with Maloghurst is:

He has I4 and 2 attacks with a Powersword. So almost no damageoutput. Maybe a marine per round. He has 3+/5++. So any character he touches will pound him to death. Any ap3 plate (sorpius, vindicator, typhon, orbital and so on) will kill him outright with no chance to survive, beside this lousy 5++. When you just take his profile, he is a centurion with +1 wound but with worse offense. So 50 points. RF and PS are 25 points on top. So 75 points. You are paying 65 points to get reavers as troops, a ROW (delegatus upgrade, 25 points worth) and 1 fearless unit.

You can build from that- deepstriking reavers drop list. Reavers are only better in 1 task compared to Veterans- slicing through 4+ in CC. So unless you face a lot of 4+ and tailor your list around it, why ever take mal? His body is just HQ tax, fearless is nice but often overrated imho (gear for winning combat, don't build tarpit units from bloody expensive marines) and reavers are worse veterans. So unless you want to drop chainaxes, mal has little use for me. A praetor is 10points more expensive (PB,IH) and has 2+/4++, 4 attacks at I5 with ap2 and makes veterans troops. Pretty much the same beside possibility to drop thr whoke army with vets. Win combats. Don't prepare for loosing them. And don't just pay tax for a hq body on the field.

 

My problems with reavers:

As I mentioned before, they are less good veterans. Outflanking lets them be a juivy target in the enemy deployment zone as they can't assault immediatly even when in range, meltabombs are missing (huge versatility bonus vs MCs and SHs), vexilla is missing (!!). For what? Chainaxes. Unless you face a 4+ army, they will rately be worth it. Yeah you can drown them in tools.. but I'm with hesh here. More units are always better..

 

Beside Horus, FW really failed at good SoH chars and units.

 

Heres your chance FW, give me an amazing aximand and tormageddon, falkus and noctuae.

He's not meant to be in CC. He's fearless. Plop on objective. In Cover. Bam, 4+ Cover. Bring it Scorpius. I'm fearless, scoring with a 4+ cover and a 2+ Look Out Sir for when push comes to shove. He brings a second Fearless option if you need with a Master of the Legion for 100pts if that's your thing. There's a local player who runs SA or IM aided by SoH with Mal and Chosen providing 2 Fearless Bubbles which he bubble wraps to get 100 Fearless Bros.

 

He doesn't have the same damage output as a Consul. *Waaaa". If you wanted to kill things you woudn't be using Consuls. These are the consul options; Kitted out consuls (except Chaplains gross around 130-150pts. That's a Predator, Dreadnought, Scorpius, Damocles or 40%ish of a typhon.

 

Chaplain - Rerolls and Zealot

Librarian - Rarely taken due to expense. Mostly for Divination, Telepathy for utility or Telekinesis for enemy slow down and damage

Champion - lol jk

Forge Lord - Rad nades bro

Primus Medicae - Terminator/Command Squad Jetbike FNP, no-one bothers because it's rarely worth it

Comms - Damocles exists and doesn't take up consul slot on certain Rites. 

Delegatus - a Praetor costs what 15pts more and has +1 WS, W, I (?), A, Ld(?) as well as better weapon access. Only reason you'd take over a Praetor is for Chosen Duty. Ever see people running Chosen Duty? No.

Praevian - Castellax are now too expensive using the Mechanicum rules. Lacks fleet to help Vorax except RG.

 

You don't take Consuls bro. He's a cheap Praetor who gives Fearless bubble for definite and gives you a Rite of War without a need to give up points.

 

Sure, a Praetor can kill more. But you're putting a Praetor into enemy lines, and running Pride means that you're giving up 2 VP's for free potentially.

 

Also, Reavers double your body count for Merciless Fighters in JP. 

 

Give them a try.

[depthcharge12]

Has anyone run a praetor/centurion/consul in the Primus TDA armor? Slap a fist on him and he'll kill 90% of ICs whose name isn't Sigismund.

 

He'll tank with a 2+/4++ in cc plus EW. Praetor blades won't have much on your SoH character and he can just pulp the enemy dude with his fist - you won't have to clench your cheeks for a 6.

 

My modeling idea would be to make him First Captain, Falkus Kibre of the Justaerin.

[PastelAvenger]

@deptcharge12

 

I think you're thinking of Headhunters they definitely can take combi-weapons with Banestrike ammo and at 10pts it's a bargain

Edited December 30, 2015 by PastelAvenger

[norngahl]

@Hesh

Coming back to Mal. You say that a Praetor is better than a Delegatus. But Mal IS a Delegatus with just +1 wound instead of I5 and 3 attacks. You can't say a Delegatus is crap compared to a Praetor and say Mal is good on the other hand. Why do all the people go so crazy about fearless bubbles?! Either seek CC with a killy unit or stay out of assault. Don't build a tarpit with marines. I can't say it often enough. If you want tarpits, play cult armies. A Vexilla is enough! If you are really in need for the fearless, just take fearless veterans. Boom, solved. No need for Mal. But-

Fearless is only good for combat when you need to tarpit a stronger unit that will slice through your unit with ease with little damage in return.. that can't be a true tactic. Maybe I'm too much WHF oldschool that a battle standart bearer (vexilla) is enough to hold the line and you just don't need to invest in beeing unbreakable.

 

Yes, PotL potentially looses you 2 vp. Same goes for strategic chards when your warlored get's nuked. If two veteran squads are dead, that's it, something else lives and didn't gave away VPs. Things die and enemies gain VPs as you do. Nontheless, you automatically take care of veterans. With dreadclaws, seeking CC against weaker units and a Praetor with Void Shield Harness on top. Why do I take an expensive Praetor? Well, to make Veterans troops to have a great unit for dreadclaw assaults (can't argue about their tactical worth!), to have a survivable HQ, to have a void shield bearer (freaking awesome when the dreadclaw get's shot and the voidshield eats the typhon blast!!) and have a beatstick to support the unit, as I have to take an expensive HQ anyhow, invest some points to make use of I5 and reduce incoming damage.

 

It's synergy for me, that makes the praetor good. Mal is bad at everything, makes reavers troops, brings a ROW where only OA makes sense to be used and is fearless. Sorry, I expect more of my HQ, or better, it should fill a different gap. Yes, void shield harness praetor with PB, IH, MB and DL is 210 points. But it works, secures the battle plan, to spend the 70 points on top of chars like mal.

 

@depthcharge12

Yes, reavers have potential but get darn expensive for what they do when you bump them up to 15 men with jump packs. We are talking about a 450 points investment. If FW redoes the books and let them charge from outflank, I'm sold. But the turn in the open is usually too much for a glascannon like reavers, and when it comes down to dreadclaw assaults, veterans are the better choice. Outflanking Reavers that can charge in the turn where they arrive, that would be great. 15 men squads with jump packs, chainaxes and some PW, fleet from black reaving ROW.. boom. You'd finally see them having a place. Go to veterans in claws or go to outflanking insta assault but expensive reavers.

 

One might try MSU with reaving and 6x5 reavers with chainaxes against 40k 4+ armies, as precision strikes and chainaxes have way more weight than fighting marines.

[Emperor's Furor]

 

I can not stress how good Combi Reavers are, I run a unit of 9 with a Master of Signal in most games.

 

Stick them in a Dreadclaw and you have a dead Squad or Tank turn 1 in most cases. Also as it was pointed out the added benefit of being able to assault most units after that and cause some damage.

 

When you buy combi weapons you get Banestrike rounds as well so the unit is still a threat after you've blown your choice of Combi-Weapon. I really do find Reavers quite useful but like every Sons of Horus unit a little over priced.

I thought they were listed as combi bolters not combi weapons. Is that a thing or has it been FAQ'd?

 

@WoT

I'd stick with big squads, or you could even run them as Reavers you'd likely get more use out of them.

 

Ok, I'll just go with normal squads for now, I don't want my force to be to elite.

[Hesh Kadesh]

@Hesh

Coming back to Mal. You say that a Praetor is better than a Delegatus. But Mal IS a Delegatus with just +1 wound instead of I5 and 3 attacks. You can't say a Delegatus is crap compared to a Praetor and say Mal is good on the other hand. Why do all the people go so crazy about fearless bubbles?! Either seek CC with a killy unit or stay out of assault. Don't build a tarpit with marines. I can't say it often enough. If you want tarpits, play cult armies. A Vexilla is enough! If you are really in need for the fearless, just take fearless veterans. Boom, solved. No need for Mal. But-

Fearless is only good for combat when you need to tarpit a stronger unit that will slice through your unit with ease with little damage in return.. that can't be a true tactic. Maybe I'm too much WHF oldschool that a battle standart bearer (vexilla) is enough to hold the line and you just don't need to invest in beeing unbreakable.

 

Yes, PotL potentially looses you 2 vp. Same goes for strategic chards when your warlored get's nuked. If two veteran squads are dead, that's it, something else lives and didn't gave away VPs. Things die and enemies gain VPs as you do. Nontheless, you automatically take care of veterans. With dreadclaws, seeking CC against weaker units and a Praetor with Void Shield Harness on top. Why do I take an expensive Praetor? Well, to make Veterans troops to have a great unit for dreadclaw assaults (can't argue about their tactical worth!), to have a survivable HQ, to have a void shield bearer (freaking awesome when the dreadclaw get's shot and the voidshield eats the typhon blast!!) and have a beatstick to support the unit, as I have to take an expensive HQ anyhow, invest some points to make use of I5 and reduce incoming damage.

 

It's synergy for me, that makes the praetor good. Mal is bad at everything, makes reavers troops, brings a ROW where only OA makes sense to be used and is fearless. Sorry, I expect more of my HQ, or better, it should fill a different gap. Yes, void shield harness praetor with PB, IH, MB and DL is 210 points. But it works, secures the battle plan, to spend the 70 points on top of chars like mal.

 

@depthcharge12

Yes, reavers have potential but get darn expensive for what they do when you bump them up to 15 men with jump packs. We are talking about a 450 points investment. If FW redoes the books and let them charge from outflank, I'm sold. But the turn in the open is usually too much for a glascannon like reavers, and when it comes down to dreadclaw assaults, veterans are the better choice. Outflanking Reavers that can charge in the turn where they arrive, that would be great. 15 men squads with jump packs, chainaxes and some PW, fleet from black reaving ROW.. boom. You'd finally see them having a place. Go to veterans in claws or go to outflanking insta assault but expensive reavers.

 

One might try MSU with reaving and 6x5 reavers with chainaxes against 40k 4+ armies, as precision strikes and chainaxes have way more weight than fighting marines.

A Delegatus brings nothing to the table that a Praetor doesn't with the exception of Chosen Duty. Next point, please.

 

Fearless has a greater application than just going in for a melee tarpit. Vexilla is rarely enough - they gibbed by an assault unit seeking them out - doubly so with Precision Strikes available and no Look Out Sir. Veterans in Dreadclaws need a Fast Attack slot as well.

 

Why the :cuss would you run Orbital Assault when the core of your list (i.e Reavers) can take Dreadclaws? Terminators and Dreadnoughts can, and you get the benefits of being able to deploy in that manner without ripping apart your Fast Attack slots to simply pod in NOR do you give up the ability to take allies (as with Pride) or Allies who cannot Deep Strike (as with OA which requires your ARMY to DS), or Typhons, Rapiers, or Deredeo's. Also, Mal makes Vet's troops, so nothing's stopping you from taking a unit of those if you want to eat into your FA slots.

 

The problem with SoH is that while they benefit baseline is that they currently have no real Rite of War that's worth taking. Black Reaving is too expensive, and requires a unit to spend a turn in a CC unsupported, while half of fleet's benefits are lost. If Black Reaving allowed assault from outflank/ds and combined charges to trigger Rage, fill your boots. But an extra troop, an expensive and less than useful Consul, on top of the benefits being non synergistic (now you've got my chatting rubbish using buzzwords) means Black Reaving isn't worthwhile. Deep Strike on a unit which as they stand should never be taken while Reavers become troops? About the only real worthwhile benefit there. Which Mal provides and gives the option to build your army as you like. And, come Book 6, when we get new Rites of War, he provides options that aren't otherwise there.

 

I'm not sure you've actually bothered trying them, and are instead just sticking with what works. No-one is denying the worth of a 200pt Praetor. No-one has really suggested using him as you've done. I even said have him on an objective in a scoring unit, or put him in a Terminator Squad where he gets Majority saves. A 20 Man Tactical Squad sitting in cover with additional CCW's is 21 Models, especially if supported by other units, which considering most assault units are between 10-15 models in size to save points (or count as such when Terminators are involved), so you've got objective campers with effectively 3 attacks per person. If there's a Rite of War giving Counter Attack, then fill your boots again. About the only assault units which are larger than 21 models are either rending zealot mobs or Night Lords who should have mastered combined charges.

[depthcharge12]

@Hesh

That's why I'm advocating the use of 18 tacticals plus Mal, and an apothecary, all in a Kharybdis. There's three guys able to use power weapons, plus you have FNP and fearless. Sure you can't sweep, but I can't remember the last time I swept with a unit, because most assault units are terminators now a days.

 

The nice thing about it too, is that if you outnumber your enemy in assault, that's 3 attacks per 12.5 point marine, which is fantastic. That squad alone has 83 attacks on the charge before initiative 1 not including that some of them are power weapons (if my math is correct - tactical - 1 base, 1 extra ccw, 1 charge, 1 merciless fighters - 4 times 18 is 72 plus one from the sgt, then 5 attacks from the apothecary and Mal).

 

I don't feel like doing maths at the moment, but it sounds like a lot of dead terminators, about 5 by my crude estimations. Any other MEQ will get chewed up as well and will bounce off of a 5+ FNP and fearless.

[Hesh Kadesh]

If you're going to be going for an assault, I can't help but think that all that investment is done better by what Norngahl is suggesting, though. You're putting a unit into an assault with a Flying DPA Spartan(ish) when it cannot sweep. A Praetor does that better. And that squad? Nearly 320 points? In a 260pts Vehicle? Eh. Why not cut out ~20% of that cost a run a Dreadclaw? And because you've not go all those points in there, why not run them as Vets or Reavers? It allows you to get Power Weapons, maybe precision strikes to kill hidden Pfists or Vexilla's or S6 Axes to combine with a Rad Nade charge by destroyers to bypass FNP?

 

Remember, bonuses are there to capitalise on. Not build around. 

 

I'm afb, so no points, but what about;

 

Praetor, Paragon, Digi Weapon's, Breacher Shield, VSH, or otherwise tailored to your fancy

Veterans/Reavers, x9, dotted power weapons or fists, tailored to suit

Dreadclaw

 

Destroyers, Jetpacks

 

Combined charge, gets you 20 bodies, a VSH to nope overwatch, S6 to bypass FNP, or potentially 5 S5 AP3 attacks/5 S4 AP3 attack with Precision Strikes. Maybe even Child of Terra if you're lucky.

 

That is when a Praetor comes in.

 

430pts for a Fearless Tactical Blob is a lot of points - especially when I otherwise suggest to spent 360pts on 2x nude Tac Squads in a Rhino to hold an objective, but it's a different game to play. I'm a bit fat and sleepy at the min and have wrote a lot, so I'll come back later to this thought.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[depthcharge12]

If you're going to be going for an assault, I can't help but think that all that investment is done better by what Norngahl is suggesting, though. You're putting a unit into an assault with a Flying DPA Spartan(ish) when it cannot sweep. A Praetor does that better. And that squad? Nearly 320 points? In a 260pts Vehicle? Eh. Why not cut out ~20% of that cost a run a Dreadclaw? And because you've not go all those points in there, why not run them as Vets or Reavers? It allows you to get Power Weapons, maybe precision strikes to kill hidden Pfists or Vexilla's or S6 Axes to combine with a Rad Nade charge by destroyers to bypass FNP?

 

Remember, bonuses are there to capitalise on. Not build around. 

 

I'm afb, so no points, but what about;

 

Praetor, Paragon, Digi Weapon's, Breacher Shield, VSH, or otherwise tailored to your fancy

Veterans/Reavers, x9, dotted power weapons or fists, tailored to suit

Dreadclaw

 

Destroyers, Jetpacks

 

Combined charge, gets you 20 bodies, a VSH to nope overwatch, S6 to bypass FNP, or potentially 5 S5 AP3 attacks/5 S4 AP3 attack with Precision Strikes. Maybe even Child of Terra if you're lucky.

 

That is when a Praetor comes in.

 

430pts for a Fearless Tactical Blob is a lot of points - especially when I otherwise suggest to spent 360pts on 2x nude Tac Squads in a Rhino to hold an objective, but it's a different game to play. I'm a bit fat and sleepy at the min and have wrote a lot, so I'll come back later to this thought.

That sounds better then. I might just do vets then because they're a bit cheaper and I want to paint the 50 shades of green and tear my hair out :P

 

So 9 vets, but then the issue is not being able to take Reavers as troops. So what should I do? I don't want to dump too many points into troops and not have them be useful. Black Reaving alleviates that, but then you have to take another troops choice. Maybe do two vets squads, and drop the seekers, Kharybdis, tacs, and apothecary, but keep Mal and slap in a combi plas terminator squad with him in a pod?

[Emperor's Furor]

What I'm reading is on the rules front the SoH don't have the best of it, compared to the later released Legions, do you think they may update them?

[Marshal Loss]

Nah, they won't be updated. As the heresy progresses they'll gain access to more chaotic units/wargear in all likelihood but their basic rules will not change, FW have said they don't want to touch the basic Legion rules. Justaerin will hopefully be getting a sizable points reduction though, which is good enough for me if they make them viable.

 

Most of the earlier Legions do suffer in comparison to the later ones though. We'll have to wait till Feb-April for the updated red books to find out whether they will rectify it properly, although this will take the form of changes to RoW's/unit balancing

Edited December 31, 2015 by Marshal Loss

[depthcharge12]

What do you guys think about a Leviathan in a drop list? It is a lot of points, but you can get it in first turn and wreck a lot over the game. Potentially, you can use your other pods to block off choke point between pieces of terrain or buildings to feed to the dread :devil:

 

I can't decide whether it's too points heavy for a 2000 point list or if it's very competitive since it can outmaneuver things like rapier batteries or other AT weapons.

[PastelAvenger]

People run Horus at 2000pets and although he is a force multiplier he is there for the same basic reason to stomp on stuff.

 

I say go for it the Leviathan is durable enough to survive being dropped in and is scary enough to force your opponent to focus a lot of shooting at it.

 

If you could back it up with 2 Contemptors your opponent is in some serious trouble.

[Flint13]

^ A "Suddenly Dreadnoughts!" Drop pod list sounds like an absolute blast to play with and against if nothing else.

[norngahl]

 

A Delegatus brings nothing to the table that a Praetor doesn't with the exception of Chosen Duty. Next point, please.

 

Fearless has a greater application than just going in for a melee tarpit. Vexilla is rarely enough - they gibbed by an assault unit seeking them out - doubly so with Precision Strikes available and no Look Out Sir. Veterans in Dreadclaws need a Fast Attack slot as well.

 

Why the would you run Orbital Assault when the core of your list (i.e Reavers) can take Dreadclaws? Terminators and Dreadnoughts can, and you get the benefits of being able to deploy in that manner without ripping apart your Fast Attack slots to simply pod in NOR do you give up the ability to take allies (as with Pride) or Allies who cannot Deep Strike (as with OA which requires your ARMY to DS), or Typhons, Rapiers, or Deredeo's. Also, Mal makes Vet's troops, so nothing's stopping you from taking a unit of those if you want to eat into your FA slots.

 

The problem with SoH is that while they benefit baseline is that they currently have no real Rite of War that's worth taking. Black Reaving is too expensive, and requires a unit to spend a turn in a CC unsupported, while half of fleet's benefits are lost. If Black Reaving allowed assault from outflank/ds and combined charges to trigger Rage, fill your boots. But an extra troop, an expensive and less than useful Consul, on top of the benefits being non synergistic (now you've got my chatting rubbish using buzzwords) means Black Reaving isn't worthwhile. Deep Strike on a unit which as they stand should never be taken while Reavers become troops? About the only real worthwhile benefit there. Which Mal provides and gives the option to build your army as you like. And, come Book 6, when we get new Rites of War, he provides options that aren't otherwise there.

 

I'm not sure you've actually bothered trying them, and are instead just sticking with what works. No-one is denying the worth of a 200pt Praetor. No-one has really suggested using him as you've done. I even said have him on an objective in a scoring unit, or put him in a Terminator Squad where he gets Majority saves. A 20 Man Tactical Squad sitting in cover with additional CCW's is 21 Models, especially if supported by other units, which considering most assault units are between 10-15 models in size to save points (or count as such when Terminators are involved), so you've got objective campers with effectively 3 attacks per person. If there's a Rite of War giving Counter Attack, then fill your boots again. About the only assault units which are larger than 21 models are either rending zealot mobs or Night Lords who should have mastered combined charges.

 

 

I see what you are telling me. You can build some lists with Maloghurst that you couldn't do with a Legion Praetor or any other char.

 

But IS Maloghurst de facto an upgraded Delegatus par exellance! He has Centurion statline, centurion wargear, makes reavers (+ veterans) troops (like a delegatus does) with no drawback plus he offers a free -but with the available rites rather useless- rite of war on top and is fearless.

 

He might become more attractive with additional rites of war, but for now, a praetor with pride works better for any of my lists than Mal would do. Might come down due to the fact I'm facing 40k as 30k as well. For example, typhon is great for 30k, hey big fat stuff like a dozen marines or other expensive units.. try to face tau with throwaway objective campers, shielddrones or MCs with that thing. Rather worthless 370 points.

 

I've tried reavers over and over again, as they have awesome models, but unless they are going to be able to charge from outflank or ds (like I said before), I'm not willed to invest in 4+ killers. A point for veterans, and I can't tell this often enough, are meltabombs. It's one of the very few answers to MCs and SHs under 2500 points.

 

And never bring the argument about loosing a FA slot due to taking dreadclaws seperately again. It's like OMG your giving up your 3rd HQ slot!! O.o

[GreyCrow]

@Hesh : I was a bit tongue in cheek while writing my post, and without facial expressions it's hard to convey that demeanor on the web :P

 

But even if we disagree on that, my point still stands : when the basics of the army (enough bodies, enough table presence) are covered by basic units, spending many points on a unit to make it really effective at the job it's meant for (and naturally good at) isn't that bad. Even if some units are a sweeter deal points wise, it's no reason to not take the others, as there as always tactical ways to mitigate the strength of any unit. Especially when it comes to melee and assault, which are units that are often disregarded due to the shooty nature of 40k, grabbing all the advantages in terms of rules, profiles and weapons you can get is the way to go.

 

____

 

@Norn : It's interesting that you compare the Justaerin to Command Squads when it comes to Fearless. I feel that they're really meant to be fielded with Abby because that way they get both their specific bonuses along with the Fearless and Deep Strike he provides. On their own, Justaerin Terminators aren't that impressive, but when paired with Abbaddon they become very interesting from a tactical standpoint.

 

When Deep Striking a full unit of 10 with several of Power Fists/Chainfists + Abbaddon, you force the opponent into dealing with them or else they'll wreck stuff. With 2+/4++ they can tank and Abby's reroll on the mishap allows a more aggressive deployment.

Obviously, this unit won't carry the game in terms of volume of damage, but it will ensure local superiority when paired with other units. Not worth it in armies where indiscriminate firepower is the doctrine obviously.

 

Also, out of curiosity, what's the consensus on how Furious Charge and Power Fists interact ? Is it (S + 1) * 2 or S * 2 + 1 ? Because throwing a few S10 attacks would become quite interesting to go against bike mounted Praetors.

 

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Regarding the Reavers, has anyone ran them with the following loadout ?

10 men, Volkites, Dreadclaw (in a non Orbital Assault list)

 

At 380 points it's not on the cheap side, but once again when looking for local superiority, I was thinking that the Dreadclaw offered the deployment flexibility to send them in an aggressive push or to bolster the line where it needed. Paired with a mechanized army, I felt that it helped keeping a reserve that you can deploy in T1 or hold in the transport for a violent charge T2 (Volkites + 4 attacks per guy + Merciless fighters, so assuming there is a full squad that's a total of 60 attacks without merciless fighters, 20 of which are S5 with deflagrate). Plus, it's 10 more guys that the enemy will have to deal with.

[depthcharge12]

As for the furious charge with a fist/chainfist, the added strength is always after the x2 multiplier. So that's a S9 hit, but if you have a chainfist, it's that much more awesome that you're 1 S point away from swinging like a contemptor :P

 

The volkites...it sounds good, but a bit pricy. I'd be worried that you might kill off just enough enemy models in a unit to flub a charge, but you should be close enough using the Dreadclaw for that not to happen.

 

Or what about a Forgelord with rad grenades in a Justaerin squad? On the Charge, you're IDing marines with axes - S6 from FC plus axes, and the enemy dropped to T3. Slap on a graviton gun and he'll mesh well with the unit since they have a MM and possibly combi meltas too.

[GreyCrow]

Okay, thanks for the precision, I've never had the case happen so I was wondering ;) I agree that having S9 Armourbane is still quite awesome !

 

Regarding the Volkites, they'll only statistically kill off 3 Marines, and like you said the Dreadclaw will help for positioning. I agree that they're a bit on the pricey side, but they double up the number of attacks prior to charging compared to a bolt pistol. They don't have the hypothetical AP3 of the banestrike, but they don't prevent from charging which is really what you want to do with this squad.

 

The Forgelord is an interesting idea :) But for IDing Marines I'd rather go for a Power Fist especially since you're hitting at Initiative 1 anyways. It costs a lot less :P

 

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Another question, and while this isn't specifically limited to the Sons of Horus : What is a good source of high volume of fire with S6-S7 ? The goal is to reliably damage Rhinos

 

Obviously, support and heavy support squads come to mind, but what are the other options, especially mobile ones ? Outriders are interesting with plasmas but pricey and have cool deployment options thanks to Scout, but I was also thinking about Attack Bike Squadrons with Autocannons. AP isn't really an issue against Rhinos (at least as much as other tanks). Multi-Meltas on attack bikes are interesting too.

[norngahl]

Best options are quadmortars and fire raptors with reaper cannons. And sicarans.