[HH1.0] Sons of Horus Tactica

[UltraCaptain]

You all write too much.

 

I think it is hard to argue against Alpharius being the best primarch, also due to price. With Horus second. Alpharius is the only primarch that is required/stupid not to/ take at 2500+ because he simply doubles the efficiency. There is simply no reason not to take him, no competing against global rerolls.

Might even refuse to play against that OP bastard.

 

All other primarch rely on working the army around them. Forcing your hand on what to take, IF you want to expans on their buffs.

The top primarch, after Alpharius, is probably Horus, Perturabo and maybe Dorn. But it all depends on what you take with them in this regards, and even then, they have a hard time outdoing attactive megaGun LoW.

[Moonstalker]

+1Ld is ok. Quite a few primarchs have it. It isn't great but is useful for the basic boys.

 

It is okay, but those Primarchs that allow units to use their leadership are better.  If your sergeants die, the squad is still Ld10 (with the +1 Ld they drop to 9).  There are also squads, like Jetbikes, that do not come with a sergeant as part of their standard arrangement, and other squads (like attack bikes) that cannot take a sergeant period.  So, of the leadership buffs, this is the lesser of the two.

 

 

Seizing always gives a warm glowy feeling.

 

It can be nice, especially if you're reserves heavy and need to get your alpha strike on.  However, I prefer going second so that I get the last attempt at clearing and taking objectives.

 

 

Giving outflank is insane since EVERY unit can now do it (and appear early due to legion rules).  Especially fast movers like bikes (I know you don't like them kit) or heavy alpha strikers like plasma in rhinos or sniper vets (hang on they're troops now!) or even giving a degree of extra invulnerability to a rock land raider (maybe with horus in it?) It's an optional extra that gives you more flexibility to all your units.

 

Optional extra, flexibility, yes.  But it's a tactic that I consider very risky as you cannot guarantee that your units will come in where and when you need them to.  It can be a force multiplier, but I think it is of dubious value.

 

 

Veteran as troops is useful. I wouldn't say they're overcosted but so may people overspend on them rather than making them what they are - tacticals with ccw, weapon access and a special rule.  They're akin to reavers in that regard (irony abounds)

 

A full size Vet squad is 20 points per marine.  A full size Tac squad with the CCW upgrade is more expensive as a whole (200 points vs 290), but the tactical squad is still only 14.5 points per marine.  The 5.5 points extra you are paying per Veteran gives each of them +1 base attack and their choice of special rule.  We could probably argue about the value of having each special rule, points-wise, almost endlessly, but I don't think any of those special rules are going to make up for the sheer quantity you're getting in the tac marines who have a special rule of their own (Fury of the Legion).  Double the bolters, double the wounds, 41 attacks base (and 61 on the charge) vs 30 attacks base and 40 on the charge.  When you add something like an apothecary to each squad, you're getting so much more value out of him in the tactical squad because there are just so many more guys to benefit from the whole-squad buff.

 

Reavers, by the way, are 22.3 points each with a naked, full size squad and jump packs.  They're veterans (who have two special rules, Outflank and Assassin's Eye) that pay 2.3 points for a jump pack while losing their bolters.

 

 

Justaerin are still 50 odd pts too much and need access to plasma blasters.

 

I would rather they just made them two wound terminators or something.

 

 

His precision bombardment is ok as I can't believe Horus doesn't get relentless from his unique terminator armour.

 

Unless FW has come out and specifically said it doesn't, I'd probably give players the choice to be relentless but unable to sweep like terminator armor, or to play Horus as though his armor does exactly and only what it says on the tin.  But yes, if this is how you play it then his bombardment is even less useful.  More importantly, though, I wouldn't file it under 'force multiplication,' which is what this whole discussion started over.

 

 

The cognis doesn't need to be in the unit it's buffing.  You could -citing example from early post- use it to buff nearby terminators so they can plasma a bubblewrap before charging and pulling remnants away so horus can sneak through the hole and go dave grohl on the rear of that tank with worldbreaker. (I still can't believe he doesn't get relentless from his unique terminator armour.)

 

I'm aware.  It does allow him to enhance the alpha strike ability of a deep striking terminator squad, but they still cannot charge on the turn after they deep strike, and if they do not run make a run move then they are going to all be in base to base after their deep strike, leaving them much more vulnerable.  I also imagine that, when being used properly, Horus is in the front lines as much as possible.  I think you'd really only get the one turn of usage out of the Cognis, because he should be locked in combat after that initial volley, and there probably aren't many other shooting elements within six inches of his melee.

 

 

I would question if his Sire of the SoH or teleportation rule affects fliers he's in.  I don't think it would but an unscattering turn 2 appearance of a thunderhawk in apocalypse (and the following assault) would be funny.

 

Definitely not, though it would be kinda silly.  Teleportation Matrix only grants the no-scatter deep strike to himself and the terminator unit he is attached to.  I think the argument can be made that if he is in a transport then you can use SotSoH to bring the transport on in the turn you choose.

 

 

 

 

Ferrus actually isn't a terribly good melee combatant.  He's decent at it, all Primarchs are, but he's definitely not top-tier.  His Master of Mechanisms roll is considerably more valuable.  The bigger your army is, the more value you're getting out of him.  Forget the Spartan, you can easily have a list with a half dozen Predators and three Contemptors, all with IWND, while you're able to skip buying Apothecaries for your tac squads (directly reducing Ferrus' cost, in a way) because he grants a (worse) version of FNP to everyone.  I'm not certain, but because he has a servo arm I think he gets +1 on his 3+ repair, meaning he also repairs on a 2+.  In a really small army, 2k points (where it's really a 1500 point army + a primarch), this stuff isn't that big of a deal.  But the bigger his force is, the more this scales.  Pretty classic force multiplication.

 

I may not have been clear about Vulkan's tankiness.  About the only thing you can reliably kill him with from shooting is Lascannons and Medusas/Vindicators/things.  He halves the strength of melta, volkite, flamers, and plasma shot at him.  Plasma actually can't hurt him at all, it's s3 vs t7.  He'll get his 2+ vs missile launchers, autocannons, etc.  You can conceivably take a full size squad of terminators put him in front, then walk up the field like you're playing Draigo-wing.  He is -crazy- tanky.  Even if you go with the more traditional spartans in a land raider, this is still a bit of force multiplication because he can confidently protect his squad from fire as you move between melees.  Otherwise, yes, his Ld buff is just parity with Horus (trying to demonstrate that the things Horus can do, others can do, which doesn't make him the best force multiplier), while the Adamantium Will is something Horus doesn't have.

 

For Lorgar, like I covered earlier, his Ld for the entire army is better than +1 Ld because it's more persistent through casualties and provides a bigger benefit to those squads that don't have sergeants to begin with.  Otherwise, his access to psychic powers puts him over Horus in terms of force multiplication potential.  Really depends on what powers you choose and how you use them.  For Alpharius, I think the reserves thing is more do-able than you think.  For one, the units only have to be the same type - a 10 man tactical squad and a 20 man tactical squad are the same for the rule's purposes, they're both the same unit entry.  So, they don't have to be outfit identically.  I'm not super-enthused about the Seize and the outflanking bonus, but again, I'm merely trying to demonstrate that Horus is not the best force multiplier out there.  The Preferred Enemy (Everything) for the entire army is pretty awesome, though.

 

Aaand Dorn.  I would again counter that army-wide Ld10 is better than army wide +1 Ld.  I'm not sure I would file it as a force multiplier, but since Horus' ability to make Vets and Justaerin into troops was brought into the discussion, I thought Dorn's ability to make an even better choice into troops was relevant.

[Moonstalker]

A mistake on my part that Sanct pointed out, Vulkan can't be the face-tank that I thought he was.  I had things wrong about how multiple toughness values in a single unit works, as it's not a rule I've got a lot of practice with on the field.

[Ion]

Is running a Reaver squad in a rhino worth it? Not with Mal, but just as a fast attack choice?

 

I had been thinking of doing that, but the posts here are suggesting they're better off at full size with jump packs.

[Sanct]

SoH legion rules suggest putting boots to the face of the Emperor's Lackeys!

Reavers pay to get their shooting on and are still outclassed by seekers in that role. Plus you can't assault out of it if it moved so getting to an assaulty position with a rhino is difficult.

[Ion]

So they're best used working as a special assault squad?

[XVI]

-

Edited August 22, 2014 by XVI

[UltraCaptain]

Maybe merciless fighters is also "how to reduce a unit before combat" kind of thing, - a unit that can shoot well before charging, And is the extra attack really THAT much of a difference, that you have to plan on having it? :)

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Sons of Horus are decent. But I agree with Ishagu on this one, Horus is far and away the best special unit they have. Overall I'd put SOH in the mid-tier of legions. They have decent legion rules, an amazing Primarch, 3 good characters/units and 2 bad. My only complaint is that Justaerin are RIDICULOUS for there price. I literally thought it was a typo when I read there unit entry. Also Abaddon is a joke. Edited July 22, 2014 by Prodigal Son of Magnus

[Telhdrat]

I still think that the Justaerin's price was a typo that they just didn't fix properly (they're still clearly overcosted) for some reason. But I have to agree with UltraCaptain, you don't need to have huge units to benefit from merciless fighters, you just need to play so that you outnumber them when you get up close and personal. Having large units makes it easier of course, but isn't necessary.

 

Personally I'd make sure that those few extra attacks I get count by having more power swords & lighting claws than the usual axes and fists in my units rather than just getting lots of ordinary chainsword attacks that do little. At least that's been my experience with the SoH so far.

[Ishagu]

To make the unique Sons of Horus rules work is so situational it's not worth it to even try.

 

You have to get large squads across the field and into combat, you have to have more units at the end of such combat, and for the attacks to have ANY meaning you haver to purchase expensive close combat weapons. For every 10 Marines you will force on average an additional 3 extra saves at initiative step 1 against other Marines... so I guess ONE extra Marine will probably die.

 

Like I said earlier, I really think the Warmaster picks up the slack of the crappy Legion rules by giving everyone outflank, able to deepstrike a termie squad, a leadership boost across the army and all the other benefits he unlocks.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Ishagu

[Sheesh Mode]

I haven't started playing 30k yet, but would someone explain why an alpha strike army that can field banestrike-combi-weapons is not as competitive as any other army? Certainly there are better general styles, bolter proficiency, survive-ability, or sheer brutality, but as the fluff states the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus aren't about that. They drop on-top of their targets and kill them. Droppods, Nuncio-voxs, and vicious application of mid-range firepower. We fail in protracted campaigns, our skills are not that of subterfuge, simple killing power or endurance, we have more finesse than that. We are deepstrikers, and today's space marines has as much to owe to the Luna Wolves strategies as they do to Gulliman's codex. 

[Kilofix]

I haven't started playing 30k yet, but would someone explain why an alpha strike army that can field banestrike-combi-weapons is not as competitive as any other army? Certainly there are better general styles, bolter proficiency, survive-ability, or sheer brutality, but as the fluff states the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus aren't about that. They drop on-top of their targets and kill them. Droppods, Nuncio-voxs, and vicious application of mid-range firepower. We fail in protracted campaigns, our skills are not that of subterfuge, simple killing power or endurance, we have more finesse than that. We are deepstrikers, and today's space marines has as much to owe to the Luna Wolves strategies as they do to Gulliman's codex. 

 

I think mainly because you can also put Imperial Fist, Iron Warriors etc. in Drop Pod with Orbital Assault and they may be more effective.

 

I've actually put my Death Guard in Drop Pods with Orbital Assault myself. In your face Flamers with Shred.

[Moonstalker]

I haven't started playing 30k yet, but would someone explain why an alpha strike army that can field banestrike-combi-weapons is not as competitive as any other army? Certainly there are better general styles, bolter proficiency, survive-ability, or sheer brutality, but as the fluff states the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus aren't about that. They drop on-top of their targets and kill them. Droppods, Nuncio-voxs, and vicious application of mid-range firepower. We fail in protracted campaigns, our skills are not that of subterfuge, simple killing power or endurance, we have more finesse than that. We are deepstrikers, and today's space marines has as much to owe to the Luna Wolves strategies as they do to Gulliman's codex. 

 

Alright, so the problem starts with the basic list design.  It's common throughout the dex to have expensive initial squads that get cheaper the larger they are, to add an incentive to field fewer, larger squads for that big, set-piece-battle feel.  When we look at the three basic troops choices, they're all 10 man minimum.  So if you put any of those in drop pods, you're not going to be buying any of the cheap additional bodies that let you spread the initial cost of the squad around.  In numbers terms:

 

10 Tacticals + Drop pod = 185

10 Tacticals + Drop pod = 185

10 Tacticals + Drop pod = 185

30 marines, 3 drop pods for 555 points

 

20 Tacticals = 250

20 Tacticals = 250

40 marines for 500 points

 

So, right out of the gate a drop pod list is behind in numbers because they're paying additional squad taxes to try and bring more bodies, and then they have to sink points into pods on top of that.  "But wait, there are two other troops choices!"  You are correct.  Breachers, however, are significantly more expensive than tacticals while still being, essentially, power-armored bolter-holders, and Assault Squads are both horrifically overcosted and completely lacking in alpha strike because they just have bolt pistols.

 

This is all especially bad for Sons of Horus, as to even use one of our legion special rules we have to outnumber the enemy in melee.  We're not going to do that by bringing fewer guys than our opponent.

 

 

Now, let's talk about enemy response.

 

After you deep strike in, you get shot.

 

Yes, you get shot.

 

One of the most common troops choices in 30k is the tactical blob, 20 or so guys with an attached apothecary, a legion vexilla for Ld rerolls, and an augury scanner on the apothecary.  What does the augury scanner do?  Grants interceptor fire at deep strikers within 18 inches.  So, by deep striking in you are allowing the enemy to alpha strike you, not the other way around.  Predators also get a 'command tank' upgrade that allows one tank in the squadron to fire its main gun as though it had interceptor.  For the cost of a couple tactical marines, you can have your Executioner dump plasma all over that terminator squad that just deep striked and are all in base to base contact with each other, or blast away at tacticals, or whatever.  Legion heavy and tactical support squad sergeants can take augury scanners (or have an apothecary with augury scanner attached to them), so that's more heavy and special weapon fire that will be hitting you right as you step out of your pods.

 

Assuming your opponent decided to not buy any of this cheap anti-deep strike insurance and doesn't have interceptor fire for you, you still are going to get wrecked on the enemy turn.  They have more guys than you, they probably have feel no pain on their marines, so they are tougher than you, and you just deep striked into Fury of the Legion range so you could get your alpha strike off.  When you put a paltry 20 rapid fire bolt rounds into them, they reply in their next shooting phase with 80 (less whatever losses they might've taken).  Or maybe, if you're close enough, they fire their bolt pistols at you using fury of the legion for 40 shots, and then charge what remains.

 

 

Now, it's not all downsides, but that kind of points disparity and interceptor fire is what you need to overcome.  Tactical support squads of your own are risky - 10 guys with plasma guns could very well wipe out a tactical squad a turn, but that is incredibly expensive and very vulnerable to that interceptor fire we were talking about.  There are some other options, like going Pride of the Legion for Veterans as troops, and then putting them in Anvillus-Pattern Dreadclaws.  The Anvillus is expensive, and so are the Vet squads, but they could offer a one-two punch of special weapons fire and heavy assault (along with protection from infantry-weapon interceptor fire, if they stay in the pod on the turn they come down).  Unfortunately, the Dreadclaw is a fast attack choice, so you are limited in how many of those you can even put on the field.  Likewise, the Kharybdis Assault Claw could allow you to bring 20 man squads... for the cost of 260 points.  You could field your own tactical blobs in Storm Eagles, but then you've created 5-600 point flying targets that won't be alpha striking anyone on turn 1.

 

Drop podding in 30k just isn't the same as it is in 40k, the things that work there are either too expensive or have strong counters in 30k.  Drop podding dreadnoughts with multimeltas are useless - the big, important vehicles you want to try and pop like that are going to have armored ceramite, and the cheaper vehicles are still tough enough in 7th ed to have a good chance at surviving.  Sternguard with combiweapons not only have a better selection of special ammo than Seekers, but are cheaper to boot.  The banestrike bolt rounds you like?  They are not as good as you think.  If they were Vengeance rounds from 40k, sure, they're great, but they only have a 1 in 6 chance of doing something beyond what a normal bolter will do, while always having a shorter range and a higher cost.  Seventh edition might mean, at least, that pods become objective secured scoring units, but we'll have to wait and see how 30k is FAQ'ed and if we are even allowed to take Combined Arms detachments.

Edited August 13, 2014 by kitwulfen

[Ishagu]

^^It's all true...

[Sheesh Mode]

Which means we need to focus more on application, no? Playing with fewer models forces us to be more creative with our strategies and tactics, using our opponents numbers against them is one such tactic. 

 

We don't have to drop across the entire front, nor put all of our troops in pods. I agree: tactical support squads are expensive: but entirely worth their cost, particularly if the enemy is packed together as blobs are wont to do. 

[Sanct]

There is a fundamental difference between 30k and 40k droppods which skews a little.  Guys in 40k pods have to disembark the moment the pod lands. 30k podders don't.  It has good and bad points but an opentopped AV12 pod can protect you a little and you can shoot out still. (up until the enemy assault the pod and sticks 20 odd krak grenades to it)  

It may be a typo or changed in the updated crusade army list but it makes a difference to my games. (Specifically when the 2 units of 10 combi-plasma seekers decided to target drop in.)

 

 

I haven't started playing 30k yet, but would someone explain why an alpha strike army that can field banestrike-combi-weapons is not as competitive as any other army? Certainly there are better general styles, bolter proficiency, survive-ability, or sheer brutality, but as the fluff states the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus aren't about that. They drop on-top of their targets and kill them. Droppods, Nuncio-voxs, and vicious application of mid-range firepower. We fail in protracted campaigns, our skills are not that of subterfuge, simple killing power or endurance, we have more finesse than that. We are deepstrikers, and today's space marines has as much to owe to the Luna Wolves strategies as they do to Gulliman's codex. 

 

The blurb on observed strategic tendancies lists shock assault, harrowing actions and strategic decapitation strikes.  Make of that what you will but for me they're about finding the keystone of an opponents force and tearing it apart in short order and a bias towards large coordinated assaults to break the enemy.

Good in fluff but ultra competitve i-wanta-win lists tend to individual efficiency and shooting where there is less risk to losing a unit to assaults and any lost unit has less impact on your overall army combat effectiveness. Kit's list here is a fair example. (sorry kit )

 

It depends on whether you desire winning over style or the style over your consistency of winning.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Sanct

[Moonstalker]

My evaluation above was written before the revelation that we don't have to disembark from our drop pods.  So far, the only official confirmation that we have on that is just an email from FW, but if the lack of a forced disembark in the rulebooks is intentional and not an error, it certainly changes things.  I believe there is still a strong risk of being counter-alpha'd, even out of your drop pods, because of the amount of interceptor fire you can get out of heavy support and predator squads, but now I could definitely see some hope for OA lists.

 

 

 

Good in fluff but ultra competitve i-wanta-win lists tend to individual efficiency and shooting where there is less risk to losing a unit to assaults and any lost unit has less impact on your overall army combat effectiveness. Kit's list here is a fair example. (sorry kit )

 

No worries, I know my evaluations and focus can be a little more... intense than that of others around here.  My list has had a few evolutions since my last post in that thread (notably, WW Scorpius: get one), but the core tenants are the same.  Just a few small shifts in wargear and options.

[Ishagu]

Not having to disembark is crazy..... that would totally change the game and tactic but I need to see concrete evidence of this like kitwulfen said...

[Fire Golem]

I don't remember who or where I saw it but o know someone emailed FW a while a go and they replied saying you don't have to disembark, so it is pretty concrete.

[blackoption]

I have two thoughts based on this conversation:

 

1. The Legions developed their character and style before the heresy.  The fought Orks, Eldar, humans who resisted joining the imperium, ect. 

 

2.  Legion vs Legion engagements required different tactics.

 

Not many army lists allow for interceptor. Conventional Alpha Strike methods do work against Orks and other GW armies.  Augury scanners are not common outside of FW legion and admec lists.   But when you fight against legion lists that have that equipment... tactics have to change. 

[AekoldHelbrass]

but would someone explain why an alpha strike army that can field banestrike-combi-weapons is not as competitive as any other army?

I actually tried exactly that in one of my games, and will never bring it back to the table. Luckily I glued them with CCW.

 

Just imagine, 4 squads of Reavers, full of banestrikes, falling in pods. Total of 1260pts.

We will assume that all of them are getting into rapid fire range, which is almost never true on good gaming tables.

80 shots - 52.8 hits - 26.4 wounds - 4.4 are dead from banestrike, another 7.3 dead after armour saves.

Which means that you've killed barely 12 models in total, giving the spread of pods - most probably 3-4 models in 3-4 units.

Opponent's turn you're getting shot and assaulted, meaning you cannot use those expensive bolters any more.

 

Identical setup with simple tactical marines will cost only 820pts (or 900 if you will give everyone CCW in addition), and will be able to kill somewhere about 8.8 marines. I've tried that also, and I can tell you for sure that those 3 additional dead bodies are not worth 360-440 points. Now I prefer to drop a combination of tacticals, heavy and special support (special support with flamers makes it hard to place all flamer templates properly, but as a result can wipe out a squad of marines completely).

[Camillo]

Granted the 30k ruleset is still new to me, but I think that played correctly, the SoH are some of the most impressive marines you can get.  

 

Here's what I see. Feel free to point out where I'm wrong:

 

The SoH list and the Black Reaving are very powerful when used in conjunction.  The best troops available for the list (in my opinion) are the Reavers and the standard legion terminators.  Your Reavers can be 15 men strong, and can Outflank.  Your terminators can be given Deathclaw drop pods as standard troop transports. 

 

Kit out your troops with minimal upgrades.  If you want to give them jump packs, OK, but I've never played on a table so large and so devoid of any kind of terrain that I couldn't manage the approach.  Place the Reavers in reserve, allowing them to outflank. Because you can't run and charge, take advantage of the Fleet rule to re-roll the charge distance and shoot your bolt pistols during the shooting phase. The only drawback to this tactic traditionally is that you could end up removing the models which will permit you to perform the assault (wounds are now applied to the closest model to the firer, and you cannot declare a charge on a unit you cannot reach).  Reavers don't have that limitation, however, thanks to Assassin's Eye.  In both shooting and close combat, they choose which models suffer the wounds, allowing you to assign casualties to the back first and keep the chargeable models in range. 

 

Using this tactic also allows you to more easily make use of the Merciless Fighter ability, because the casualties should help tilt the balance in your favor, especially with the Banestrike rounds.

 

Since you have to take at least 1 Master of Signals, in a larger game I would take 2 (again, minimally kitted out), and embed them with 2 different Reaver Squads.

 

Your Praetor should probably have Terminator Armor, and come with a standard Terminator retinue instead of Justaerins.  I agree, they cost too much for too little punch.  

 

Additional Terminators should also be standard ones, all kitted minimally - everything I've seen about the game suggests that bodies win more than special equipment (YMMV - experience should be the best way of learning what wargear to take to fit your personal style or your group's metagame).  If I REALLY wanted to squeeze out the effectiveness of the units, I would take Grave Warden Terminators as allies (they are Battle Brothers with the SoH). They are pricey options, but the Toxin grenade launcher is a really useful template weapon. Kitting them out with Deathclaws would match the number of Heavy and Fast Attack Choices (since they don't get them as dedicated transports).  Declaring that one of your existing Reaver squads is a Fast Attack choice would meet the requirements for The Black Reaving. 

 

Turn 1:

Drop Pod Assault half of your Dreadclaws. Remember to use the burn abilities of the Dreadclaw. It's rare that you get to land exactly where you want, but when you can inflict casualties, you should. If you don't have to disembark afterwards, great.  If you do, you're doing it with the troops that can best weather the fire. Shoot.  Charge If possible.  

 

Turn 2:

Start rolling your Reserves.  You have an 88% chance to get what you want - that's as reliable as most things in this game get. Because 2/3 of the Reserve rolls will be advantageous to you (one side of the board or Your choice), the odds are in your favor to be able to fire and fleet into melee.  Refrain from having your Master(s) of the Fleet fire their bolt pistols, and have them drop their Orbital Strike(s) instead.  Anywhere is fine - your individual strategy or objectives should dictate this.

 

Use the Nuncio-vox from the Master(s) to bring down the Drop pods, concentrating your remaining forces where they will do the most damage. Don't forget the burn rules.  Once you have disembarked from the Dreadclaw (whenever you decide that is), zoom around the board with them, concentrating on units that are moving to support the poor fools that you are already engaged with (remember the burn rules). Shoot. Charge if possible.

 

Turn 3

By now, you've hit them hard.  Survey the battlefield, and set priorities as appropriate for the mission.

 

It looks to me like that's about all you need in a bare-bones strategy. Favored units or special equipment isn't factored much into it, so it should be flexible enough that personal preference can be be taken into account, and variability depending on opponent is still possible.

 

I admit that I'm looking at the strategy as a newcomer to 30k, but how am I doing?

Edited October 24, 2014 by Camillo

[AekoldHelbrass]

Sorry to crush your plans, but I do not beileve it will work as you expect... Here's why:
 

Reavers don't have that limitation, however, thanks to Assassin's Eye.  In both shooting and close combat, they choose which models suffer the wounds, allowing you to assign casualties to the back first and keep the chargeable models in range.

Yes, on 6 only.
 

Using this tactic also allows you to more easily make use of the Merciless Fighter ability, because the casualties should help tilt the balance in your favor, especially with the Banestrike rounds.

Does not compute with "minimal upgrades" you mentioned earlier. Also banestrikes, while costing pretty much, will give you barely 0.83 more wounds than no banestrikes. I would prefer combi-plasma.
 

Turn 1:
Drop Pod Assault half of your Dreadclaws. Remember to use the burn abilities of the Dreadclaw. It's rare that you get to land exactly where you want, but when you can inflict casualties, you should. If you don't have to disembark afterwards, great.  If you do, you're doing it with the troops that can best weather the fire. Shoot.

You lost me here. How many dreadclaws do you expect to have? Considering I do not want to take allies, there are only 4 elite slots and only 3 fast attack slots, so that will be 3 dreadclaws max, maybe 4th for justaerin, right? Which gives you 2 on the first turn. Which gives you 10 models shooting from bolters?
 

Charge If possible.

It is hard to get in range on the first turn, and after arriving from deep strike you cannot charge.
 

Turn 2:
Start rolling your Reserves.  You have an 88% chance to get what you want - that's as reliable as most things in this game get. Because 2/3 of the Reserve rolls will be advantageous to you (one side of the board or Your choice), the odds are in your favor to be able to fire and fleet into melee.

As already mentioned - you cannot charge after arriving from reserve.

 

Refrain from having your Master(s) of the Fleet fire their bolt pistols, and have them drop their Orbital Strike(s) instead.  Anywhere is fine - your individual strategy or objectives should dictate this.

Orbital bombardment is ordnance, you cannot fire it if you moved.
 

Use the Nuncio-vox from the Master(s) to bring down the Drop pods, concentrating your remaining forces where they will do the most damage. Don't forget the burn rules.  Once you have disembarked from the Dreadclaw (whenever you decide that is), zoom around the board with them, concentrating on units that are moving to support the poor fools that you are already engaged with (remember the burn rules). Shoot. Charge if possible.

Model has to be on the table to use Vox, which means that 2 of your remaining pods have really high chance arriving on turn 2, leaving vox useless on turn 3. And as always, charging is not possible.
 

Turn 3
By now, you've hit them hard.  Survey the battlefield, and set priorities as appropriate for the mission.

I'd say that with this plan, there is a really high chance that you was already blown from table on turn 1 or turn 2, and even if you were not - you paid premium price for ok units. If you were facing WE army - evey one of your squads would be charged by 20 berzerkers the turn they arrived, and Red Butchers will be hunting whoever is left alive on the table. If you were facing fluffy Iron Warriors - most of your terminators and drop pods would be inscinerated by predators and medusas, which he can fit 9 in single FOC. If you were facing Alpha Legion - there is a high chance that he will be completely in outflank, leaving you alone on the table, taking away all of your "tip of the spear" advantages.


So I agree with what some people wrote above, SoH sound really good, but it will be really hard to play for their advantages, and when you will try to maximize it - you will lose everything that makes them unique, because any other legion can do the same and probably more. I'm still gathering what would and what would not work myself, but couple of common ideas are starting to appear.

[Camillo]

First, thanks for the feedback.  The cost upgrade for the Banestrike rounds is a little steep, but I prefer them to combo-weapons, especially in the late turns, after the initial opening engagement with my opponent. One-use weapons are not high on my list of preferred points-costs - too many variables in the late game that make them risky. But that's my opinion only. In any event, I was only pointing out that the rounds helped with the strategy, not that they were required to make it work.

 

Some of our disagreement can probably be attributed to communication error - as I read over my previous post, I can see that I got carried away and didn't fully explain what I was thinking.  I could still be wrong, but I don't think it's as bad as you claim either.

 

You lost me here. How many dreadclaws do you expect to have? Considering I do not want to take allies, there are only 4 elite slots and only 3 fast attack slots, so that will be 3 dreadclaws max, maybe 4th for justaerin, right? Which gives you 2 on the first turn. Which gives you 10 models shooting from bolters?

 

This one in all likelihood is just a communication error. Dreadclaw pods are standard Dedicated transports to Space Marine Terminator squads when using the SoH list (I had mentioned that the Terminators were a good choice, but I don't think I explained what they were a good choice FOR).  You would only need to select them as Fast Attack choices if you were using Allies. So a series of 5-man Terminator squads in Drop Pods was the original idea (hence why I said they were the few troops choices that could weather the storm of incoming fire).  

 

As for cost, the squad should price out under 200, plus the cost of the Dreadclaw (adjust costs to include favorite war gear as appropriate).  That brings the squad in at around 300 points (exact numbers not permitted, but it's close enough).  Even in a 2000 point game (small by HH standards, from what I've been reading here), that would let you pick up three of them and have more than half your points left.  At more realistic point levels... you could extrapolate.

 

 

 If you were facing fluffy Iron Warriors - most of your terminators and drop pods would be inscinerated by predators and medusas, which he can fit 9 in single FOC.

 

You underestimate the Dredclaw's power in that respect. It's a flyer that can hover, not a drop pod in the traditional sense. It has far more staying power due to these classifications.

 

This site posted some excellent suggestions for Dreadclaw tactics, and they perfectly illustrate the strengths of the vehicle in their own right.

 

If you plan to use ranged weapon occupants (and this idea does)

 

1. Drop Pod Assault - Deep strike into hover mode

2. Occupants disembark and shoot

3. Drop pod jinks incoming fire as a skimmer (4+, cover)

4. Drop Pod takes off in flyer mode turn 2, and goes heat blast (fire sweep) something

 

 

I would need to play an Iron Warriors list with the selections you mentioned to be sure, but I still think the math is on my side for initial survivability.

 

It is hard to get in range on the first turn, and after arriving from deep strike you cannot charge.

 

Quite correct, and my fault. I was channelling a previous edition when I wrote that (several times).  

 

Model has to be on the table to use Vox, which means that 2 of your remaining pods have really high chance arriving on turn 2, leaving vox useless on turn 3. 

 

I think that's probably another communication error.  The Reaver squads are meant to be held in reserve using the Outflank rule, not the drop pods.  That's actually what makes The Black Reaving superior to Orbital Assault - you can mix and match tactics.  The odds are favorable (88%) that you will get each of the Masters attached to the Reaver squads on Turn 2.  My math was off in the previous post, they cannot fire until turn 3, but they are still fleet if you want to set up for a charge, and he can still shoot his regular weapon (OK, it's unlikely to be a GOOD weapon, but it's better than not being able to fire at all).
 

Orbital bombardment is ordnance, you cannot fire it if you moved.

 

True.  I knew that and wrote it anyway.  Still, it's not insurmountable.  The master is an IC, so he would arrive with one of the squads of Reavers and detach.  Turn 2, they move, he doesn't.  Fire away.

 

If you were facing Alpha Legion - there is a high chance that he will be completely in outflank, leaving you alone on the table, taking away all of your "tip of the spear" advantages.

 

Yeah... The AL are among my favorite legions due to the customizability of their armies.  But it wouldn't take much of a shift in plan to adjust to an all outflanking army. Instead of concentrating on opponents in the first turn, concentrate on deploying the pods near objectives.  The pods can continue to act as flyers, giving you an initial advantage against the arrival of the Legion, and being able to control at least one objective early forces your opponent to react to you - that can be advantageous.  Your out flankers would serve as tar pits for his units, since you are more likely to receive them early, and your remaining drop pods could seize objectives or disrupt his outflankers if needed. It would require some finesse, but it is by no means undoable.  An all-outflanking army suffers from the same disadvantage as an all drop-pod army - there's no way to take advantage of the changing battlefield.   Being able to combine two different tactics allows for more flexibility in an ruleset that usually favors hyper-specialization.

 

Or hey, if you know that you're going to face an army like that, swap out one of the two Masters in the list for a Vigilator in carapace armor, and have him Infiltrate close to an objective with a squad of your choice, Scout them to or closer to the objective before Turn 1, then use the Drop Pod Assault to seize other objectives or fortify the scout's position.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Camillo