Terminus Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 If you're playing against 40K, may as well use relics. You need every edge you can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 If you're playing against 40K, may as well use relics. You need every edge you can get. I'm a 30k player, I'm already a relic! *shakes cane at whippersnappers* Noserenda, Lanky27, Flint13 and 3 others 6 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 I'm not sure you have the challenges down correctly. Is this in regard to Angron challenge-sniping enemy buff characters? I'm pretty sure it works as I intend it to, since you call challenges simultaneously and then resolve them in any order you'd like. The rule for refusing a challenge reads: "If you refuse, your opponent gets to nominate one of your characters from those that could have accepted. The chosen model cannot strike blows at all this turn [...]" I guess it comes down to whether a character that does accept is a character that could accept a challenge. Which they have to be in order to accept to begin with, no? The challenge is accepted though. You cannot fight is more than one challenge, so if enemy model has accepted challenge, then he is no longer eligible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 Angron can fight and Declare/Accept as many challenges as he has attacks but must dedicate at least 1 attack to each challenger. The rest he can distribute as the controlling player wants. Its part of his 'Red Sands' rule. Fangbanger 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 Aye, but the opponent IC cannot. There are no rules to let multiple enemies issue challenges to Angron, it's just that Angron can issue as many as he likes. It would also be a lot simpler if FW used the rules "issue" and "accept" like every other instance. Angron in challenge with IC and two unit, each with one sergeant. Angron makes 3 challenges, and only one is accepted, by the IC. This lets you select two characters who could have accepted those challenges. The IC is not eligible for that, because he's already fighting in the one challenge that he is allowed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 I'm sorry, are you saying that Angron declare as many as he wants, but can only fight in a single challenge bc the opponents are restricted from accepting more than one? The entire point of Red Sands is multiple challenges. It states "Angron can call and fight as many challenges as there are independent characters and units in combat with him, up to his current number of attacks." Regardless of what the enemy ICs may be limited by in the Challenge rules, Red Sands trumps BRB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 So conceivably you could keep declaring challenges and for every one they turn down, one character stays out of melee. You could successfully intimidate every character in the enemy lines, which is a pretty hilarious mental image. ANGROOON!!!! RRAARRR!!! Flint13 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 Well, its that or they eat his WS9 S8/9 Ap2 Attacks at a faster-than-theirs initiative (generally) to the face. So yeah, as long as there are Characters/ICs in combat with Angron he can bully/murder/snipe them with a Challenge so long as he can spare at least 1 attack on them. Flint13 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) So conceivably you could keep declaring challenges and for every one they turn down, one character stays out of melee. You could successfully intimidate every character in the enemy lines, which is a pretty hilarious mental image. ANGROOON!!!! RRAARRR!!!That *is* hilarious. Dad would be proud. Well, its that or they eat his WS9 S8/9 Ap2 Attacks at a faster-than-theirs initiative (generally) to the face. So yeah, as long as there are Characters/ICs in combat with Angron he can bully/murder/snipe them with a Challenge so long as he can spare at least 1 attack on them. Exactly! You either fight Angron or get as far the :cuss out of his way as possible. ... So if he challenges all the characters, who all decline and go to the back, what happens if Angron generates enough wounds to kill the entire squad (including the displaced characters) regardless? Edited February 29, 2016 by Flint13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 Well, he counts as killing: A Unit and Every IC in the squad thus gaining an equivalent number of attacks (1 for the unit, 1 per IC) up to the maximum of 10 Base Attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 (edited) I got inspired by TompiQ's list a few pages back and made this monstrosity. Uses the new RoW. Angron would essentially have: 3+/4++/FNP (3+)/ IWND (4+) in the enemies deployment zone if the wording is correct. +++ The Crimson Path - 5k (4995pts) +++ ++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (5005pts) ++ + HQ (390pts) + Damocles Command Rhino (100pts) Khârn the Bloody (170pts) Gahlan Surlak (110pts) + Troops (790pts) + Legion Tactical Squad (290pts) [Exchange their Bolters for a Chainsword or Combat Blade, 18x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Nuncio-Vox] ··Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Power Fist] Legion Tactical Squad (280pts) [Exchange their Bolters for a Chainsword or Combat Blade, 17x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Nuncio-Vox] ··Legion Tactical Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Power Fist] Legion Tactical Support Squad (220pts) [Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 4x Legion Space Marines, Plasma Guns] ··Legion Sergeant [Artificer Armour] + Elites (1415pts) + Apothecarion Detachment (195pts) ··Legion Apothecary [Artificer Armour] (blob in a Kharybdis) ····Caedere Weapon [Twin Falax Blades] ··Legion Apothecary [Artificer Armour] (Blob in a Kharybdis ····Caedere Weapon [Twin Falax Blades] ··Legion Apothecary [Artificer Armour] (Plasma Guns) The Red Butchers (395pts) [Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod, 4x Butcher Terminator, 4x Second Power Axe] ··The Devoured [2x Chainfist, Second Power Axe] The Red Butchers (395pts) [Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod, 4x Butcher Terminator, 4x Second Power Axe] ··The Devoured [2x Chainfist, Second Power Axe] The Red Butchers (430pts) [7x Butcher Terminator, 7x Second Power Axe] ··The Devoured [2x Chainfist, Second Power Axe] + Fast Attack (1230pts) + Legion Outrider Squad (410pts) [6x Legion Space Marine Outrider, Melta Bombs, 2x Power Weapon, Twin-linked Plasma Gun] ··Outrider Sergeant [Power Fist] Legion Outrider Squad (410pts) [6x Legion Space Marine Outrider, Melta Bombs, 2x Power Weapon, Twin-linked Plasma Gun] ··Outrider Sergeant [Power Fist] Legion Outrider Squad (410pts) [6x Legion Space Marine Outrider, Melta Bombs, 2x Power Weapon, Twin-linked Plasma Gun] ··Outrider Sergeant [Power Fist] + Heavy Support (780pts) + Legion Kharybdis Assault Claw (260pts) Legion Kharybdis Assault Claw (260pts) Legion Kharybdis Assault Claw (260pts) + Legion + Legion Astartes [XII: World Eaters] + Lord of War (400pts) + The Primarch Angron (400pts) Edited February 29, 2016 by Slipstreams Flint13 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 No, that isn't what I said, Flint. The opponent may only issue a single challenge. Because the is no mention in Red Sands of accepting more than one, or giving the opponent the ability to issie more than a single challenge. He can 'call and fight' in as much as one for each eligible IC and units in combat with him. So, if in combat with a command squad joined by a Praetor, that is 2 challenges maximum. One for IC and one for unit. The Praetor is the only one who accepts, vut what was being suggested was that because one challenge was turned down, the wording in challenges allowed Angron to force one who had accepted the challenge to then not fight at all, because it makes no differentiation between those who have accepted and those who could have. However, despite this twisting of the words, it isn't the case that the Praetor who accepted is then ignored, because the Praetor after accepting one challenge cannot then be eligible to fight in another, and hence ineligible for the 'no fight' clause. Marshal Loss and Blindhamster 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorgon Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 I agree with Hesh Kadesh's assessment. It also happens to be the more sportsmanlike way to play the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 At this point, I'm going to say take it to the Official Rules Forums if its so much of a concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_chron Posted February 29, 2016 Share Posted February 29, 2016 So after running through my recollection of my game against tau I am wondering if there is a better unit to park Khârn in besides veterans with an apothecary? What have you guys been running him in and also as I don't feel the deredo fits the playstyle of my list what would be some good AA? I have 2 fast attack slots and one elite slot open in my 2000 point list looking to go to 2500 and one heavy slot but I could squadron my vindicators or drop them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fangbanger Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Deredeo is probably your best anti air option in 30k, not much else can match it (twin keheres gets more shots but shorter range). The only other thing to look at as mentioned before is the sicaran. It's fast, ignores jink saves and has 6 shots twin linked so fishing for 6's to hit is not awful. Bang lascanons on it too. Dreads are good for interceptor but having to plan ahead and only having 18" bubble in a 45 degree arc is pretty situational anyway. Sicaran can offer other benefits too. Heck, get 2 and squadron up the vindis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_chron Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Oh I like that idea fangbanger I'll admit that's kinda what I was thinking just have enough shots to force a jink save of wreck I'm not overly concerned about blowing them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Potato of Mankind Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) Deredeo is just too good for the points cost. I can't not use one in every list I build nearly. 4 S8 TL AC shots with Sunder, so those sweet rerolls. It's excellent fire support on a healthy number of targets. Throw on the Aiolos for S6 AP3 indepedent fire to snipe at tacticals and you've got a murdermachine in the making. Despoilers for anti-infantry Attack bikes for AV/Anti-TEQ Deredeo for AA/AntI-AV10-12 Spartans... well 4 quad lascannons and 2x TL hbs will hurt something I'm sure. World Eaters <3 Having tacticals that can do work is just so good. Edited March 1, 2016 by The God-Potato of Mankind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_chron Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Yeah my only issue with Eddy dreads is they don't keep up with the rest of my list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guiltysparc Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Deredeo is just too good for the points cost. I can't not use one in every list I build nearly. 4 S8 TL AC shots with Sunder, so those sweet rerolls. It's excellent fire support on a healthy number of targets. Throw on the Aiolos for S6 AP3 indepedent fire to snipe at tacticals and you've got a murdermachine in the making. Despoilers for anti-infantry Attack bikes for AV/Anti-TEQ Deredeo for AA/AntI-AV10-12 Spartans... well 4 quad lascannons and 2x TL hbs will hurt something I'm sure. World Eaters <3 Having tacticals that can do work is just so good. Any reason why you prefer to attack bikes for anti armour duty than some of the other options like grav land speeders or MM/HKM javelins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Potato of Mankind Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Deredeo is just too good for the points cost. I can't not use one in every list I build nearly. 4 S8 TL AC shots with Sunder, so those sweet rerolls. It's excellent fire support on a healthy number of targets. Throw on the Aiolos for S6 AP3 indepedent fire to snipe at tacticals and you've got a murdermachine in the making. Despoilers for anti-infantry Attack bikes for AV/Anti-TEQ Deredeo for AA/AntI-AV10-12 Spartans... well 4 quad lascannons and 2x TL hbs will hurt something I'm sure. World Eaters <3 Having tacticals that can do work is just so good. Any reason why you prefer to attack bikes for anti armour duty than some of the other options like grav land speeders or MM/HKM javelins? I can have them on the board turn 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guiltysparc Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Deredeo is just too good for the points cost. I can't not use one in every list I build nearly. 4 S8 TL AC shots with Sunder, so those sweet rerolls. It's excellent fire support on a healthy number of targets. Throw on the Aiolos for S6 AP3 indepedent fire to snipe at tacticals and you've got a murdermachine in the making. Despoilers for anti-infantry Attack bikes for AV/Anti-TEQ Deredeo for AA/AntI-AV10-12 Spartans... well 4 quad lascannons and 2x TL hbs will hurt something I'm sure. World Eaters <3 Having tacticals that can do work is just so good. Any reason why you prefer to attack bikes for anti armour duty than some of the other options like grav land speeders or MM/HKM javelins? I can have them on the board turn 1. The speeders can start on the board too though, or do the attack bikes have scout like the outriders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hesh Kadesh Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 Attack Bikes cannot scout without attached Vigilator to rubber band around, nor is there a reason why Speeders cannot start on the table. Deep Strike is an option unless specifically mentioned otherwise (ie Drop Pod). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Potato of Mankind Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) I thought if a unit has deep strike, it had to start in reserve? Every ... what ... have I gotten it.. wrong all this time. I've been confusing deep strike and flyers oh god oh god. I still get more attack bikes - and multi-meltas, than I do if I go Javelin. That said, Javelins are thoroughbred Heresy units so would look infinitely more appropes. A Jav with MM, HKs = 95pts, Attack Bike with MM & MBs = 55pts. I can basically get ~double the number of attack bikes, but also lose small arms immunity on the Javs. I've avoided gravspeeders as they don't feel 30k enough for me, it almost seems like I'm trying to drag 40k cheese into 30k. I'm not hugely into that concept. Edited March 1, 2016 by The God-Potato of Mankind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 *Graviton is an entirely different concept from "grav" which is a 40k phenom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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