[HH1.0] Tactica Chainaxe: World Eaters

[Hesh Kadesh]

Do have to agree, I feel like if you have these theoretical Haywire shots coming at you overtime they can be on the opposing side of the board then you are dealing with people who tailor to a list. In addition I have to say, cover and line of sight, plus the odds of hitting and penetrating have to be taken into account. I don't think its as simple as the hit and its gone thought process. 

 

Also I think it does also make sense to stick Angron in a tactical squad, both for fluff and logical reasoning.

 

 

In regards to the 6 Haywire hits; as for accuracy, it's a BS4 Large Blast Template. 33% of the time, it hits where you want it to, and on the hull the size of a Spartan, it only needs to overlap at the smallest part, and causes a haywire hit; which has a 5 in 6 chance of causing a glancing hit. If it's got a cover save, you're deploying badly, or you're happy because your opponent isn't getting the benefit out of a Spartan.

 

A Spartan, and a Land Raider exist for one job only. When you have, after upgrades, between 270 and 350pts to spend on a model, it had better do something for your army. 350pts for 4 TL Lascannons and a TL Heavy Bolter? No-one chose these vehicles for their damage; for 20pts more, you can pick up a Typhon, or some Seekers, or for 40pts more 3 Vindicator Tank Destroyers, 5 Graviton Land Speeders, or up to 3 Legion Dreads. So, what purpose do they serve? Moving as fast as possible into enemy lines to transport units safely with their 5 ablative hull points which require extremely heavy tank killing power to break down; immune as it is to the standard go to of Melta. 

 

So, to take on a Spartan, you need Strength D, or Haywire. There is very little ranged Strength D, leaving haywire as the only reliable way to kill spartans. Another is lance, but there's a lot of praying to RNGeesus for that (with lance coming at S7, without Tank Hunters, it's still more miss than hit). Haywire is reasonably cheap and otherwise a necessity. Why a necessity? Because like said, a Spartan has a single job, getting into enemy lines; enemy lines are typically 24" away from your deployment line, you can Flat Out first turn, move 6" next turn, disembark 6" and then 2d6" assault. That's 25" on average, but either way, has done its job, delivered a unit into enemy lines. What kind of unit is up to you, but considering that CC is strong (because of the per rote comment of 7th is a shooting game, people don't compensate for assault units properly), it is benefited by being a strong assault unit.

 

Assault units;

 

Command Squad/Terminator Command Squad; Power Weapons, come in less than 10 models, so can fit in Phobos

Terminators; Power Weapons

Destroyers; Rad Grenades, 2 CCW's, only 10 men max, probably cheaper with a Phobos, if not jump packs

Veterans; Power Weapons, 2 CCW's, only 10 men max probably cheaper with a Phobos

Rampagers; Scout to ensure they get closer, Rending Power Swords with +1 Strength or Twin Falx being the best for basic assault, 10 men, probably cheaper in a Phobos or with Jump Pack

Tactical Squad; large numbers, 2CCW's, thats... about all they've got going for them

 

Now, these max squad sizes are mixed up when you put characters in, who provide force multipliers, whether it's rerolls, or Rad Grenades, etc, which is where that Spartans come in. The thing I also like pointing out is that the Spartan is a Heavy Support, unless it's a Dedicated Transport. When it's a monojob vehicle, why take away choices from one of the few highly varied FoC slots in the list? 

Edited April 29, 2015 by Flint13
keeping it class, spelling, etc

[LongGone]

To get back to the original topic of Angron and his killyness, I've seen him effectively used multiple ways, with and without transport/escort. There's a metric crap ton of batreps on the youtubes involving the World Eaters legion. The "Traitors Hands" (I think that's what they're called) ones are pretty good, although the World Eaters guy seems to have fallen on RNGeesus' bad side. Watching those is a good way to see what does/does not, may/may not work.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Flint13
Keeping it classy

[The Nookie]

Thanks Long, i'll definitely look into those videos and see what people experience, I love angron and will probably buy him just to paint him for my army, might use him one day in a bigger match, just for giggles lol.

[Flint13]

++ Alright kids, have fun, keep it classy and constructive! Any continued troll behavior will be met with enthusiastic requital. ++

Edited April 29, 2015 by Flint13

[The Nookie]

Soooooo...to start this forum chain back up, has anyone got an opinion on Red Butchers vs. regular terminators? Like, i've heard positives from both end and negatives for both, but am never really sure because both arguments make sense...any ideas? 

[Slips]

Unwieldy Weapons and always getting hit on a 3+ regardless of Weapon skill are pretty big down sides as is being in Cataphractii for Slow & Purposeful but, thats not as big of a deal since they'll never be foot slogging in ordinary games. Exceptions being made for ZM (where vehicles can't be had either way) or other such small-scale games. The lack of Overwatch is also negligible since you'll be trading their BS 2 Combi-Bolter for a Second Power Axe, Free, Anyways.

 

Advantages are a literal boatload of attacks per terminator; the very thing Khorne CSM wished they had, 2+/4++ from Cataphractii, FNP baked in and almost every useful rule used in the process of punching someones face in and having 2 Wounds Each.

 

They are very much a one-dimensional blender unit; especially since they can never be considered a scoring unit, no matter what.

 

Another added fringe benefit is the Sarge being able to take Dual TH, Power Fists or Chain Fists instead of Axes. In all honesty, the Chain Fists option might be the best bet since their just Armorbane Power Fists and concussive isnt all that worth it since only Primarchs, a few special characters and other exceptions. Most of the time, other things that can ID your Butchers will be also swinging at Initiative anyways or will be done through shooting.

 

Regular terminators are very much a specialist unit that you can tool up to accomplish a particular goal having a lot more flexibility in terms of wargear options and the like.

[The Nookie]

So, if I have three close combat 20 man units anyway, do you think it would make more sense to go with regular terminators, aiming for a specific purpose? My army is suppose to be very fluffy, but anyway havent bought the terminators, so I could easily switch what unit I buy.

[Slips]

In the case of Multiple 20 man Blobs, yes, I feel Regular Terminators would work a bit better than Butchers. However, if you had 2 squads that numbered 15 or less, Red Butchers might be a better bet.

 

Not quite sure though, it would need some playtesting.

[ThatOneMarshal]

I feel like red butchers are a bit of a spear. You put them in a spartan ( because god knows when they'll reach the enemy walking) and you aim for the big bad that the Enemy has and throw them at it. Though you have to be selective with who to charge.

[Fangbanger]

If anyone has used them, would be great to get some tips on how well they deal against....

 

Primarchs?

Big blobs?

Other termies?

Legion specific units?

[Slips]

If anyone has used them, would be great to get some tips on how well they deal against....

 

Primarchs?

Big blobs?

Other termies?

Legion specific units?

Vs a Primach, its usually boils down to "feeling lucky, punk?" And rolling hot for invulnerable saves since only two (dorn and morty) strike at I1 with unwieldy weapons and all are in the range or have a rule to permit them to be in the ID zone invalidating their Two wounds. Should you survive with enough, they should be able to take a primarch down unless theyre rolling hot.

 

Big blobs of 3+ or worse you stand a good chance of deleting them. Most of the time, in CC, only one or a few models will have ap2 weapons meaning your almost always getting a 2+ save on 2 wounds. After which your retaliate with (depending on bonuses like getting the charge) 5+ ap2 attacks per Butchers. If they have fnp its a bit harder but the sarge will have no problem due to S8.

 

Other termies its a case of who is better at rolling invulnerables. :p

 

Depends on the legion specific. In most cases the butchers should come out on top or cause mutually assured destruction. Same with the termies I guess :p

[Fangbanger]

So with my army, I'm looking to get the butchers into the hardest thing or the cc Tac squads would you think?

[Slips]

Butchers into the meat and the tacs into the potatoes.

 

Use the tac squads as mid field shooty/charge threat and go balls to the wall with the butchers.

[Fangbanger]

It would be great to get some tactics up here on how to deal with specific legions and what to look out for...

[The Nookie]

I feel like if I am going to change out the red butchers for regular termi then it might be a good idea to get like lightning claws, or power fists...but what is a good set up for regular terminators? 

[depthcharge12]

I feel like if I am going to change out the red butchers for regular termi then it might be a good idea to get like lightning claws, or power fists...but what is a good set up for regular terminators?

I run a 10 man blob, and while they're no longer WEs, I love em to death.

 

I equip them with mixed weaponry for most situations but have a higher proportion of axes just because that 4++ is so useful to negate AP2 weapons in cc. I would've put more fists on my guys but then you're buying upwards of 3 weapon lots for one unit of guys.

 

I love the look of my reaper cannon so I keep it in there, but I'd run 2 plas blasters if I could for effectiveness, again, the kit only comes with one.

 

While I'll probably get a lecture on why not to make a mixed weapon unit, I find a hidden chainfist and some claws very useful. I even throw in one mace for anti AdMech and a power sword for S & Giggles.

 

Here's my load out:

 

1 power mace and plas blaster

1 reaper AC and LC

1 twin LC

1 power sword and combi bolter

1 chainfist and combi bolter

5 power axe and combi bolter

 

When they disembark from *THE ONE SPARTAN IN MY LIST* (gasp) I arrange them in usefulness of what enemy they're charging. If up against MEQs, AP3 weapons go toward the back. Up against TEQs - axes and chainfist to the back. That way I have some revolving meat shields and can tackle a variety of challenges.

[The Nookie]

Thank you for responding love the suggestions, Just found all the information I was looking for earlier hahaha, but yeah love the idea of power axes, and i'm leaning more towards cata termis. But is the cataphractii armor better or worse than the regular?

Edited May 4, 2015 by The Nookie

[depthcharge12]

Thank you for responding love the suggestions, Just found all the information I was looking for earlier hahaha, but yeah love the idea of power axes, and i'm leaning more towards cata termis. But is the cataphractii armor better or worse than the regular?

I'd totally recommend the cataphractii. Though losing over watch and running sucks, you should be having them charge from an assault transport if sorts. The 4++ means all the difference in the world and makes putting power fists and other unwieldy weapons on them make sense because they can soak up damage.

 

If possible, put some form of FNP on them for extra nerd rage.

 

WE make out best from all the bonuses they get in assault. Don't forget that characters in a challenge get +1 WS

[Flint13]

^^ I'll back that up. I feel like a Cataphractii unit with a couple upgrades and a Primus Medicae is a pretty darn good investment that won't be too gawd-awful expensive that it will ruin your entire day if they get blowed up or stranded.

 

That being said, and as a fellow appreciator of Berzerker Assault myself, I'd understand if you didn't have the room for another Consul. 

[The Nookie]

Yeah see I was thinking replace red butchers with a bigger unit of cataphractii, then maybe do power axes, and maybe a chainfist, then I could have some shooting on them too. I mean with three units of 20 assault troops rrunning up the board too that I can afford not to take red butchers which only focus on close combat...but does the 4++ refer to the 4 plus invulnerable save? 

[depthcharge12]

Yeah see I was thinking replace red butchers with a bigger unit of cataphractii, then maybe do power axes, and maybe a chainfist, then I could have some shooting on them too. I mean with three units of 20 assault troops rrunning up the board too that I can afford not to take red butchers which only focus on close combat...but does the 4++ refer to the 4 plus invulnerable save?

 

Yeah that's what its reference is for shorthand.

 

If you're running berserker assault, I'd just run regular Cataphractiis because they'll be cheaper for your 3 min troop choices and you'll get rage and hatred on them among other things :)

[The Nookie]

Ok so thinking of this as a possibility...replace the red butchers with regular cata termi squad with 8 models, 6 having power axes, then have 2 chainfists, one with a plasma blaster...thats 15 points more than the red butchers, but then I have to move points away from other positions in my list...

 

So my list so far is: 

 

+++World Eater Traitor 2000pts +++

 

(Doom of the World Eaters legion) (Berserker Assault)

 

Khârn (190)

-       Gorechild

 

5 Red Butchers (285)

-       1 Chainfist

 

3 Despoiler Squad (275) x3

-       power axe, armor, and melta bomb

 

3 Apothacary (165)

-       Art Arm

 

Spartan Assault tank (320)

-       Void Shield

 

Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought (220)

-       Aiolos missile launcher

 

2005 

_____________________________________________

 

Any ideas where to remove points? Or might it be better to stick with the red butchers? I'm seeing that I am losing wounds, and losing attacks in exchange for more objective holding, and for the option of shooting at things...

Edited May 4, 2015 by The Nookie

[Fangbanger]

Could you just shave a few marines off your Tac squads?

[The Nookie]

That's not a bad idea, could probably shave off a couple base marines, or maybe close a squad down to 15 to make room for more goodies on the terminator squad...but, then the question arises again, is it worth removing the red butchers?

 

The idea of my list is to make the troops units march on the outside and work like a pincer, as the terminators in the spartan would target the tougher targets, and mainly move up the center, then the dread would provide rear support, and anti-air, if the opponent has any.

Edited May 4, 2015 by The Nookie

[vladsimpaler]

Man, this thread really needs a boost!

 

 

World Eaters are in a tough spot right now with so much of the emphasis on Alpha Strikes, which isn't helped by the fact that the best 2 legions right now are Alpha Legion and Raven Guard (imo)

 

 

So, how do we combat this?

 

Right now I'm working on a 1750 list, with the following as a core:

 

 

Tactical Squad-270

10x Additional Troops

Bolter, BP, Chainaxe

Sergeant with Powerfist and Artificer

 

Tactical Squad-270

10x Additional Troops

Bolter, BP, Chainaxe

Sergeant with Powerfist and Artificer

 

Tactical Squad-270

10x Additional Troops

Chainaxe

Sergeant with Powerfist and Artificer

 

=Elites=

Apothecary Squad-150

2 Additional Apothecaries

3x Augury Scanners

 

Rapier Battery-225

2x Additional Rapiers

Graviton Cannons

 

Rapier Battery-225

2x Additional Rapiers

Graviton Cannons

 

=Heavy Support=

Sicaran Venator-190

 

For HQs, I'm looking into Chaplains for Zealot.

 

So, I want to go over a bit of theory regarding the weaknesses of World Eaters and how we can not only mitigate them but force our opponents to play on our turf.

 

First of all, you'll notice that all 3 tactical squads are fully kitted as our Legiones Astartes rules allow us to be. This is a significant advantage over our enemies, as these squads are able to Fury of the Legion with their bolters as well as fight in close quarters with 4 hatred attacks if they charge, or 2 hatred attacks if they are charged. 2 of the squads will likely be fearless as I plan on taking 2 Chaplains.

 

Graviton Cannons shore up any anti-Spartan worries I may have. I've noticed a lot of players reallylove Hammer units, and Graviton Cannons annihilate Spartans as well as forcing squads of 7+ Terminators to deal with difficult terrain as well as dangerous terrain. The second advantage that Grav Cannons give World Eaters is that they make our foes strike at I1, which allows us to strike before them. Pretty neat if you ask me!

 

Secondly, you'll notice I've given the Apothecaries Augury Scanners. This forces both Alpha Legion and Raven Guard (and indeed, any Alpha Strike force) to think twice. The 18" range is overall pretty oppressive and forces them out of premiere fighting range. Giving interceptor to the unit if an enemy deep strikes within 18" may seem weak, but even 20 Bolter shots is going to cause a couple casualties. To units like Dark Furies, losing 2 models just for dropping really screws with their plans, especially since next turn we can Graviton Pulse them or just Fury of the Legion them.

 

The Sicaran Venator is a choice I'm still on the edge about, especially since I only would plan to use it in 2k+ games against things like the Typhon.

 

Would love to hear y'alls thoughts!