Khorne Daemonkin - Discussion, Tactics, Background

[Scribe]

I think it should be, but since there isnt a herald model with an axe, I certainly dont expect one.

[Khornestar]

The Herald can only take weapons from the Artefacts of Slaughter. The Axe of Khorne is a melee weapon. So while every squad champion and Chaos Lord now has access to an AP2, Decapitating Blow, strike at Initiative Axe, the Herald loses out.

Terminator, possessed, warp talon, and cultist champs can't take them, either. Those poor little cultist champs.

[40kChrista]

I just got this email from FW...

 

Hi Chris.

 

As it stands our Imperial armour books, miniatures and their rules held within these supplements are not designed to be used alongside other supplement books such as the Daemonkin supplement or Tempestus Scions supplement by Games Workshop. They are designed to be an individual supplement for your chosen force’s main codex.

 

At the moment there is no firm “ruling” or “Do’s and Don’ts” but we at Forge World encourage the use of “house rules” so if you ask your opponents for permission to use Forge World miniatures in your Daemonkin Army and they are okay with it then boom! Got ya’ self some awesome Daemon force to be reckoned with.

 

I do think it's odd they referred to Demonkin and Scions as supplements, not codices. So the standard "ask first, and forge a mighty narrative" seems to be the answer. The paragraph after this said to keep a lookout on the downloads tab, so maybe a possible FAQ (and/or Eratta) in the future? I know nothing is official until FW actually posts something, but I wanted to pass this along. I know others have written FW, but I haven't seen any responses yet.

 

So given that, does anyone have plans to augment their Demonkin with any FW units? How do you think it would change your tactics, if at all?

[Adra'Melek]

I might get a daemon engine or two but not fussed about the Spartan, etc.

[Hellrender]

I have a decimator with dual siege claws. I might get a contemptor at one point but most likely not

 

Rapier team allies, now that might be interresting.

[Midnightmare]

Khârn/Cultists/Spartan for me, any more and I will be running standard CSM.

I take it this means IA13 is off limits to Black Legion/Crimson Slaughter?

EDIT - I like the auto-correct we get for Khârn on here now

[Scribe]

Disappointing news there, since Daemonkin are not a supplement to CSM, its completely self contained.

[Sception]

I take it this means IA13 is off limits to Black Legion/Crimson Slaughter?

Not at all.

 

Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter are supplements. This means their armies are still CSM armies. They still use the CSM army book and its unit entries, including any unit entries added to C:CSM by Black Library Dataslates (Be'Lakor) or FW sources (IA13), so long as they conform with any limitations applied by the supplements in question.

 

As it happens, the Black Legion's only restriction on C:CSM unit selection is "must purchase VotLW where it is optional", while the Crimson Slaughter's only restriction is "may not purchase VotLW where it is optional". As such, all units and characters available to C:CSM in its current incarnation regardless of the source will be legal in armies of either supplement, including special characters and the like.

 

Khorne Daemonkin is not a supplement. It does not have access to units or unit entries from C:CSM or C:CD. Though many of its own unit entries are largely reprinted from them, they are not the same unit, and units added or changes made to C:CD or C:CSM do not automatically transfer to C:KD. IA:13 adding dreadclaws as a troop transport to chaos marine squads in C:CSM makes them available to chaos marine squads in Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter armies, but does not automatically add that same option to chaos marine squads in C:KD, just like an option added to tactical squads in C:SM would be available to Clan Raukaan as a C:SM supplement, but would not automatically propagate to Blood Angels or Dark Angels tactical squads.

[Midnightmare]

Gotcha Mal, that makes me happy for list building with them books.

 

The reason I wouldn't use any more than what I have stated when using Daemonkin is the Khârn/Cultist/Spartan combo are in ineligible for the blood tithe, the rest of the army will be.

 

btw the 10 cultists will not be in the Raider ;)

[40kChrista]

I still plan on using IA:13 with my Black Legion, I mean come on... Dreadclaws are a dedicated transport for CSM and Chosen. I also really like the R&H list as well and think about my Sorcerers corrupting latent psykers to form covens that they can manipulate further. After all, the Warmaster needs bodies... even if they are expendable.

 

I'm intrigued with Demonkin as a concept, and I'm curious to see what/if they do with the other gods. Yes there's rumors of Tzeentch relatively soon, but with all things Chaos... I'll believe it when I see it.

 

That being said I read it as Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter are still picked from CSM, since CSM is still the parent codex. They just have some rule tweaks.

[Sception]

I'm a big fan of a single dreadclaw. Maybe three in a particularly large game. The trick is to think of them as stripped down storm ravens that ditch fire support to focus on assault unit delivery. Despite appearances, they're really not fancy drop pods, and in fact are terrible in that role, due to their points cost and lack of scatter mitigation.

 

One neat trick is to take three, have two come down first turn, and then deploy the third on a landing pad to avoid having to reserve it. Be aware though that the drop pod assault rule kind of conflicts with the landing pad's rule in a way that may make this invalid depending on how the interaction between the two rules is interpreted.

 

Regardless, try to keep the contents of your claw cheap. The claw itself is somewhat durable (AV12 and jink), and not too expensive, but if your opponent can dedicate their full attention to it then they will take it down and leave the squad inside stranded if not outright destroyed. You need to have a lot of other fast threats on the board (maulers, bikes/spawn/hounds, shrouded winged princes, whatever) so that your opponent can't afford to focus fire your claw or claws down.

 

As such, while a claw is arguably the best way to deliver melee chosen or possessed or maybe even terminators, such units are not the best units to put in a claw. Not when you could put a regular BP/CCW CSM unit in there instead, and save points towards having another independent threat on the table applying pressure.

 

Basically, if you're building a list to get the most out of one or more claws, leave the chosen and possessed at home. However, if your list is fielding melee chosen or possessed anyway, and you've already got a few other threats regardless, then a claw makes sense as a means to deliver that unit you're already fielding regardless.

 

This is part of why I'm a fan of an allied CSM detachment for Codex: Khorne Daemonkin. For one, you have a hard time accessing that second juggerlord you want for your other hound unit otherwise (and nothing you can natively field will hit half so hard as a C:CSM blinding axelord), but for another, you're already fielding possessed but have no meaningful way to use them. Grabbing a claw out of that allied FA slot at least provides a meaningful and threatening delivery option which also happens to help them with their lack of assualt grenades problem.

 

Unfortunately, that's a lot of points to add on top of the already rather points-hungry default daemonkin list. I haven't run the numbers myself, just kind of thought about it conceptually, but a slaughtercult, a bike/hound formation w/ 2 hound units, 2-3 maulers, and an allied detach w/ axelord, claw, and obligatory msu cultists may just be too many points for commonly played game sizes.

 

As such, I'm hopeful that we'll see FW explicitly add some options to the daemonkin. If you could get the claw without the allied detachment, well, you'd miss out on that axelord, but it still might be more functional in general.

 

Berzerkers and possessed in particular would really love access to dreadclaws as dedicated transports. I doubt we'll see it, since those units didn't get them in C:CSM, but we'll see. If it did happen, I'd almost be tempted to run berzerkers insteaad of bloodletters in the main slaughtercult formation.

 

If I weren't still so upset about the lack of cult terminators and HQs that I've sworn off the whole book, that is.

 

..............

 

The R&H list is neat, though I'm not sure it works well as allies for CSMs, since a lot of its power is locked away in warlord options.

[Khornestar]

I got the same email. So typical. Cannot roll my eyes hard enough. They should stick to sculpting and writing fluff, and let GW poper write the rules.

 

Whatever, I'm gonna use blood slaughterers. Wouldn't use them in a tourney and there couldn't be a fluffier army to include them in.

[Scribe]

For a second I read that as 'Let GW write proper rules.' and laughed loud enough to wake my still sleeping wife.

[Kol Saresk]

I got the same email. So typical. Cannot roll my eyes hard enough. They should stick to sculpting and writing fluff, and let GW poper write the rules.

 

Whatever, I'm gonna use blood slaughterers. Wouldn't use them in a tourney and there couldn't be a fluffier army to include them in.

Considering the quality in rules per average, I'd argue GW proper should hand the reins to FW. The child has surpassed the master.

[Scribe]

Its actually completely nonsensical to not have the IA13 units, some of them anyway.

 

I'll be dropping them an email, I'll write it up and post here first (later, I've got an apoc game to run to) and everyone can spam them!

[Midnightmare]

Tbf if anybody should have Brass Scorpions....

[Khornestar]

I don't want to totally derail this topic, but I will finish my thought with a final point (which, should go without saying, is my opinion):

 

Forge World writes rules for use in the 40k game designed by the GW component, and sometimes they don't mesh well. Terminology may differ, and at times the units are awkward or extremely overpriced in terms of points.

 

I can't speak for 30k, which seems to be pretty well received and regarded highly by those who play it, but as far as 40k goes there is a ton of nonsense going on.

 

The reluctance to release errata or FAQ's by both parties is perhaps the most frustrating part of it all. I don't care if something is designed with tournament play in mind, but errors such as units being in the wrong FOC slot or accidentally saying x when they mean y -- and they're aware of the errors because they'll tell you in an e-mail-- should be fixed immediately!

 

Rant mode off; the issue about using IA:13 units is resolved, so I'll keep things on topic again.

[Emperor's Furor]

Had my first game using my daemonkin today and it went well. It was a limited time match (it only lasted three turns unfortunately as between me getting used to the rules for chaos marines, both of us setting up the objectives and them working together the time went by quick), using the Vanguard mission with objectives, these went my way a lot whilst my opponents (two 800 point lists for battle brothers) were horrible, I mean he had an objective to kill any psykers and I'm Khorne. I won 5vp to 2vp. The main thing I took away from it was the addition of feel know pain was really helpful, two turns in a row I was able to achieve the necessary points to get it, in fact I got 4 each turn between stuff he killed on my side and stuff I killed on his.

 

The slaughter cults (Blood Host*) one blood tithe a turn was very helpful. I underestimated a simple 5 man squad of possessed, they got into combat in tact, mainly cause they were busy shooting at other things, but they delivered 25 attacks which was devastating, and my Khorne Berzerker champion took down a Dark Angels Reclusiarch in a challenge, I wish he could of received a gift like in the normal codex. My opponent was using a combined Ravenwing and Red Scorpion list, I charged his knights with my maulerfiend and he luckily got an immobilisation result so my maulerfiend was stuck there regaining hit points from it will not die.

 

My flying Daemon Prince came on in turn 2 and vector striked a space marine's head off then landed next turn with the intent of getting into combat with a force lead by Loth who had dropped onto an objective in my deployment zone that was being guarded by my blob of allied cultists and lord, I had the objective to kill a psyker, but my basic allied lord couldn't get the job done. I'm not sure about the Daemon Prince in future lists, he's an imposing figure that's for sure, will have to test him out more.

 

Overall it went well though, especially the FNP you gain from the Blood Tithes. Might shake it up and try to add some bloodletters and herald in place of something.

[Adra'Melek]

You don't get an extra BT point from having a Slaughtercult Formation. You get it from running a Blood Host detachment (which has a mandatory Slaughter Cult Formation). Might have just been a terminology slip as it's all pretty knew.

[Emperor's Furor]

You don't get an extra BT point from having a Slaughtercult Formation. You get it from running a Blood Host detachment (which has a mandatory Slaughter Cult Formation). Might have just been a terminology slip as it's all pretty knew.

Yeah that's what I meant, I ran the Blood Host :)

[Kol Saresk]

What auxiliary formations did you run?

[Emperor's Furor]

Hellbrute, Maulerfiend and Forgefiend. The Forgefiend took down a Predator Executioner with glances in one turn luckily. The Hellbrute took out a drop pod.

 

This was my list

 

 

Slaughtercult

Khorne Daemon Prince - Wings / The Blood-Forged Armour - 250

 

Khorne Bezerkers (8) - Pair of Lightning Claws - 192

Rhino - 35

 

Khorne Marines (8) - CCWs / Power Maul / Combi Melta  - 171

Rhino - 35

 

Khorne Possessed (5) - 150

 

Khorne Forgefiend - 180

Khorne Maulerfiend - Lasher tendrils - 140

Khorne Hellbrute - Twin-linked Lascannon - 125

 

Allies

Chaos Lord - Mark of Khorne / Power Sword / Sigil of Corruption - 115

Cultists (25) - 110

Khorne Bikers (3) - 2 meltaguns - 96

 

Total - 1599

[Caustic63]

I think that the Khorne Daemonkin army is clearly designed to make a melee based Chaos army more effective (and also generate interest in models that currently suffer from poor sales such as Possessed and Berzerkers) and to introduce a mechanic by which a mono-god Khorne army can summon daemons into the battle. Since Khorne has no psykers (and in fact loathes them) a means to access the benefits Daemonology and other psychic benefits was sorely needed and KD provides it.

 

"Blood for the Blood God" is a powerful special rule because not only do you get Blood Points for killing enemy units, you also get them for getting killed. This means that in non-passive games BP can tally up very quickly, and unusually for Chaos can be spent at will for specific benefits without randomness. The merits of the various options can be debated thoroughly, but when you are in game and playing you will know what you specifically need at any given instance and except for the most powerful abilities (which require LD tests) you don't need to roll for it.

 

Scanning through the codex though its clear that some important units are lost while combining the Chaos Marines and Daemons books. No Predators, Vindicators, Obliderators, Chosen, or Warpsmiths/Apostles are significant limitations as is the completely unexplained absence of Khârn the Betrayer and Skarbrand. I've also noticed some very interesting changes/differences picked up during the fusion:

 

- All Daemon units in Codex Chaos Marines are now Daemons of Khorne. This means Possessed, Warp Talons, and Mauler/Forgefiends picked up Furious Charge for free.

- Heralds, Bloodletters, and Bloodcrushers have lost the ability to take Daemonic Rewards and AP2 weapons of any sort, while through 'Axe of Khorne' many of the Chaos Marines units have picked up the ability instead. Interesting... so now Khorne Daemons are exclusively anti-MEQ while Marines are more versatile?

- Picking the right units in your army gives free and useful benefits. Summoning Daemons while giving your Troops, HQ and Possessed Feel No Pain or +1 Attack is not a small bonus, and it is much easier to do if you are generating a free Blood Point per turn.

- Blade of Endless Bloodshed belongs in the hands of a Monstrous Creature. End of Discussion.

- Kor'lath, Axe of Ruin is a funny trick in the hands of a solo Herald on a Juggernaut... your opponent would have a serious debate as to whether to kill it on his own turn and get charged right away.

- Blood Forged Armour is clearly designed for a Winged Daemon Prince.

- Skull Helm is a neat support item that combines well with lots of attacks/rerolls to hit

 

I think I'll play around with some Daemonkin lists... the Maulerfiend swarm seems especially evil.

[Sception]

- All Daemon units in Codex Chaos Marines are now Daemons of Khorne. This means Possessed, Warp Talons, and Mauler/Forgefiends picked up Furious Charge for free.

not free, as they are all more expensive than their C:CSM incarnations, but they don't pay very much for the privilege. It doesn't really change their utility that much sadly, though it does promise interesting things for when the other daemonkin get their books.

 

What does change things for possessed is that the very useful slaughter cult requires them. One blood point a turn is useful enough that C:KD players are highly advised to run it even even with the 150 point tax. In a way you could say they're basically free at that point.

 

 

- Heralds, Bloodletters, and Bloodcrushers have lost the ability to take Daemonic Rewards and AP2 weapons of any sort, while through 'Axe of Khorne' many of the Chaos Marines units have picked up the ability instead. Interesting... so now Khorne Daemons are exclusively anti-MEQ while Marines are more versatile?

Lack of access to the axe on heralds and champions is a pain, and an inexplicable one at that. Arbitrary and annoying, and really hurts daemonic units that didn't need any sort of nerf. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

 

- Picking the right units in your army gives free and useful benefits. Summoning Daemons while giving your Troops, HQ and Possessed Feel No Pain or +1 Attack is not a small bonus, and it is much easier to do if you are generating a free Blood Point per turn.

Giving your whole army FNP and your slaughter cult +1 attack at the same time is even better (note the bonus boon from the slaughter cult only applies to units in that formation, not to all units in the army or even the blood host overall). Still, very nice formation benefits.

 

 

- Blade of Endless Bloodshed belongs in the hands of a Monstrous Creature. End of Discussion.

I didn't think thirsters could take it. Can they? And khorne princes are simultaneously too expensive and too fragile - a rush army needs all the threats it can get. All your threats must be fast, and each of them must be either cheap or durable, you can't be neither. IMO khorne princes should stay at home.

 

 

- Kor'lath, Axe of Ruin is a funny trick in the hands of a solo Herald on a Juggernaut... your opponent would have a serious debate as to whether to kill it on his own turn and get charged right away.

Right away nothing. Summoned units deep strike. Deep striking FMCs come in swooping.

 

- Blood Forged Armour is clearly designed for a Winged Daemon Prince.

Given the T5 and a 4+ jink is not exactly durable for an exposed monstrous creature, regardless of instant death, I'd be much more inclined to put it on a juggerlord, myself. Seriously, there's not that much S10 in the game. Instant death is not what made khorne princes so unattractive. FNP is nice, but you can get that from blood tithe.

 

 

I think I'll play around with some Daemonkin lists... the Maulerfiend swarm seems especially evil.

for a 1500 point list, I'd try something like:

 

Blood Host:

- Slaughter cult

- - Juggerlord, armor, fist, sigil

- - 2x MSU bloodletters

- - 2x MSU cultists

- - 8 possessed

 

- bike formation (forget name)

- - 2x MSU bikes with dual melta

- - 2x 7 flesh hounds (escorting the juggerlords)

 

- support attachments

- - 2x maulerfiend

 

- command attachment

- - Thirster with D axe

 

Allied Detachment: C:CSM

- - Juggerlord, AoBF, sigil, meltabombs

- - MSU cultists

- - Fast Attack Dreadclaw (for possessed)

 

 

 

Another thing to try is wall of power armor blood hosts.

 

Basically, take multiple hosts, each with one slaughter cult (infantry lord, 2x min CSMs or berzerkers, 5 possessed), plus the minimum one support choice (a maulerfiend). for each host you can fit in your list, that's one more blood point every turn. Get up to four and you've got FNP and +1 attack on all your infantry every turn, and that's a fair chunk of power armored bodies to bring down. Some armies will wipe it before you cross the board, or dance out of your reach forever, though.

[Kol Saresk]

No, Bloodthirsters cannot take anything in the C:KDK. Which is a downgrade since their C: CD counterparts have access to the Gifts of Khorne. No, only Lords, Heralds and Daemon Princes have access to the Artefacts of Slaughter, and the DP can either get them by replacing your lord, or paying for them.