[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[Caillum]

Yeah, it's a model-by-model basis, so your suggested setup is fine.

 

I have heard of people running something like that in normal games - they performed well! :)

[Yodhrin]

Yeah, it's a model-by-model basis, so your suggested setup is fine.

 

I have heard of people running something like that in normal games - they performed well!

 

See that's what I thought, but sadly my best bet for Heresy gaming at the moment is with a group of the most pedantic RAW-obsessed rules lawyers imaginable(I'm already battling with them over whether or not "Any Space Marine..." in the Legion Recon Squad includes the Sergeant; they insist it does not since the words "Space Marine" don't appear next to the word "Sergeant", and so I can't arm him with a sniper rifle...yeah o_0 ), and I can already hear them trying to argue that because it refers to the squad as a whole and because the word "bolters" is plural, it's an all-or-nothing unit upgrade.

[Caillum]

I would say it's not worth wasting time with people like that, but that's your best bet, so I guess you have to suck it up.

 

What do the Battlescribe Catalogues say?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Actually, Vodhrin, they are correct, and you're in the wrong here. And as well meaning as Caillum's being, if you're the one who's not willing to play by the rules then the two of you are going to lose out on a game because of your insistence on not playing by the rules, not theirs. Unfair, and unreasonable as it may be, but still, it's by the book. Look at the rules for the Command Squad - it refers to Chosen and the Standard Bearer, and models all differently.

 

As to the Power Swords thing, it's a little less cut and dry. I can see both sides to the argument. Personally, I'd err on the side of allowing it to be mixed, but then again, there are arguments equally for World Eaters not getting free Chainaxes if they take them as well as a Bolter and Bolt Pistol, all an Iron Hands detachment only needing to pay 10pts to give ALL vehicles in it Blessed Autosimulacra.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to judge or say that you're playing the hobby "wrong", and that changes and houserules are made to make the rules functional or at least argumentative for the course of play, and that I certainly wouldn't have an issue with giving you an extra sniper, particularly if they are already modeled with it in a friendly game. In a more competitive situation, I'd request an arbitration by one of the TO's and live with the decision.

 

That said, I wouldn't even both FW with rules requests - firstly they're probably already busy with post christmas messed up's on the orders, probably aren't back until monday, and are also lacking in the brains and capability to see them tie their own shoelaces (they probably wear velcro). Whereas before they gave conflicting answers to the same questions, now they don't even bother and say houserule away. For a company that prides itself on customer service, it's customer service is lacking in the department that has seen the game take off. And when we get round to clarifying all of our gaming groups houserules (on about 18 A4 pages, now) and ensuring that they're legitimate rules messed up's, we'll be sending it in to try and get FW capable of writing rules.

[Yodhrin]

Actually, Vodhrin, they are correct, and you're in the wrong here. And as well meaning as Caillum's being, if you're the one who's not willing to play by the rules then the two of you are going to lose out on a game because of your insistence on not playing by the rules, not theirs. Unfair, and unreasonable as it may be, but still, it's by the book. Look at the rules for the Command Squad - it refers to Chosen and the Standard Bearer, and models all differently.

 

So does the Tactical Support Squad, which are all equipped with the same weaponry. And sorry, but in my book trying to claim that a Space Marine is not a Space Marine in order to deny someone the ability to arm a squad Sergeant model in the way it is supplied by the company that makes the models(or did you not notice that the only "official" Recon Marine models from FW all come armed with only Shotguns and Sniper Rifles?) is not "playing by the rules", it's using linguistic pedantry to twist the rules to your own advantage.

 

This is why hidebound-RAW is idiotic: it doesn't work with rules which have no consistency. RAW requires every bit as much interpretation as RAI(in shambolic GW rulesets), the only difference is RAI is at least honest in admitting they're guessing what the "right" answer is.

[The Pounder]

Finally got the B@C box (yay Christmas!)

I'm thinking of making the Cataphractii into Falmentarus.

Also a squad of 10 vets.

My question is how to arm both units? 

I'm planning on giving the vets a rhino and outflank.

Thoughts please.

[Ishagu]

Hold on, wasn't there an faq that said everyone can take weapons in recon squads, etc?

Or was it LCAL?

[caladancid]

Hold on, wasn't there an faq that said everyone can take weapons in recon squads, etc?

Or was it LCAL?

 

The FAQ. It says:

 

 Q: The Legion Recon Squad states that states that “any Space Marines may exchange their

bolter for one of the following...”, excluding the Sergeant (a bit odd). Is that correct or the rule

should state “any model” instead of “any Space Marines”?

A: Any Space Marine is correct; this includes the Sergeant. Note that if you replace the Sergeant’s

bolter for one of these options, you will not be able to select any of the Sergeant-only options (as he

will no longer have a bolter to exchange).

 

So as you can see, the reasonable reading by Yodhrin was correct.

[Frostmourne]

Does anyone actually use Ventanus, and use him well?

 

Or just for Fluffy games?

[Ishagu]

Does anyone actually use Ventanus, and use him well?

 

Or just for Fluffy games?

 

I don't personally think he's anything special, though I love the lore behind him.

[GreyCrow]

Does anyone actually use Ventanus, and use him well?

 

Or just for Fluffy games?

 

Well, he gives Fearless without the cost of a Praetor + Command Squad. His warlord trait is quite interesting for units that are outside of his fearless bubble.

 

One big weakeness I see in him is that it's really hard to fit him inside a transport when running mechanized lists. I've seen him used once in a footslogging Ultramarines list with large 20 tacticals blobs where he made quite a good show preventing units in the thick of the fight to run away and stopping the enemy's advance. But that's really about it, and the opponent, aside from large blobs himself, didn't have a great efficient way to deal with large blobs.

 

I'm not sure large blobs of Marines are very potent these days in a meta where artillery is so prevalent, so that perhaps explains why his use is limited.

 

I'd be interested to know if anyone has got an interesting idea for a transport and escort for him.

Edited January 5, 2016 by GreyCrow

[Frostmourne]

The problem is, I want a decent chunk of Suzerains in a LR or Spartan, and I think I would rather create a Suzerain character from a Praetor rather than have Ventanus.

 

He isn't as Heroic and Strategically lynchpinning as Polux

[1ncarnadine]

I'm actually going to take a second to steal Terminus's comments on Suzerain from the SoH thread and throw it over here with something I thought was worth pointing out. Just didn't want to derail the SoH thread.

 

Now lets consider a unit that would actually get good mileage out of plasma pistols, the Suzerain. It's a unit that is designed to kill 2+ saves, they have no other ranged weapon options, and every single guy can take a plasma pistol. So that would be a bunch of S7 Ap2 shots that gives them an answer against vehicles and monstrous creatures, gives them a nasty overwatch, and their artificer armour makes overheats a mild concern (<3% chance of losing one). But just 5 dudes pay 75 points for that privilege, where those same 75 points could get you 3 more Suzerain, or the better part of a Dreadclaw to transport them.  At 10 points per pistol, I'd consider it for half the Suzerain (running 8 guys with 4 plasma pistols vs. 10 guys), but they would be the first thing to cut from the list if I needed the points elsewhere.  At 5 points per pistol, it'd be 10-man Suzerain with all the plasma all day long, because that is more than enough concentration of firepower.  For non-Suzerain options, at 10 points I'm still ignoring it most of the time (except maybe being tempted to build a sarge with two just to look cool).  At 5 points, it would be the default weapon option to give to my sgts that are artificer meatshields if I can't scrounge up another 5 for a combi-weapon, and it would still be a tough choice between it or melta-bombs.

 

 

As another consideration against taking plasma pistols, you can instead take as many thunder hammers as you want for the same cost. So in a unit of 10 for example, instead of taking 3-4 pistols, you could have 3-4 hammers. Now you won't shoot yourself out of your charges, you have S8 if you have to assault vehicles, you can concuss Primarchs (especially helpful if the Suzerain are escorting Guilliman) and you have ID punch.

 

The only downside would be losing out on some of the AP2 at initiative benefit of the Legatine Axes, so probably 1-in-5 to 2-in-5 at most, but still. I feel like I'd rather spend points on 2-3 hammers before I'd even look at getting any pistols.

[GreyCrow]

The problem is, I want a decent chunk of Suzerains in a LR or Spartan, and I think I would rather create a Suzerain character from a Praetor rather than have Ventanus.

 

He isn't as Heroic and Strategically lynchpinning as Polux

 

Yeah, especially since the Suzerains also double up as a Command Squad for free. Ventanus is redundant in this case.

[Frostmourne]

I completely agree. Even in the true 'rule of cool' sense, Hammers are amazing.

 

I would probably use 2, as if I put a Paragon Blade on a character in the unit it would provide a great mix of deadly weapons.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

The problem is, I want a decent chunk of Suzerains in a LR or Spartan, and I think I would rather create a Suzerain character from a Praetor rather than have Ventanus.

 

He isn't as Heroic and Strategically lynchpinning as Polux

 

Yeah, especially since the Suzerains also double up as a Command Squad for free. Ventanus is redundant in this case.

 

2 Fearless blobs. Don't need to have Ventanus in CC, where he is weaker anyway.

[Slips]

In this scenario Venatus would act as your mid-back field anchor for your shooty pew pew guys while the Suzerians would act as the Anchor for your forward smashy hitty punch guys.

[caladancid]

I'm actually going to take a second to steal Terminus's comments on Suzerain from the SoH thread and throw it over here with something I thought was worth pointing out. Just didn't want to derail the SoH thread.

 

Now lets consider a unit that would actually get good mileage out of plasma pistols, the Suzerain. It's a unit that is designed to kill 2+ saves, they have no other ranged weapon options, and every single guy can take a plasma pistol. So that would be a bunch of S7 Ap2 shots that gives them an answer against vehicles and monstrous creatures, gives them a nasty overwatch, and their artificer armour makes overheats a mild concern (<3% chance of losing one). But just 5 dudes pay 75 points for that privilege, where those same 75 points could get you 3 more Suzerain, or the better part of a Dreadclaw to transport them.  At 10 points per pistol, I'd consider it for half the Suzerain (running 8 guys with 4 plasma pistols vs. 10 guys), but they would be the first thing to cut from the list if I needed the points elsewhere.  At 5 points per pistol, it'd be 10-man Suzerain with all the plasma all day long, because that is more than enough concentration of firepower.  For non-Suzerain options, at 10 points I'm still ignoring it most of the time (except maybe being tempted to build a sarge with two just to look cool).  At 5 points, it would be the default weapon option to give to my sgts that are artificer meatshields if I can't scrounge up another 5 for a combi-weapon, and it would still be a tough choice between it or melta-bombs.

 

 

As another consideration against taking plasma pistols, you can instead take as many thunder hammers as you want for the same cost. So in a unit of 10 for example, instead of taking 3-4 pistols, you could have 3-4 hammers. Now you won't shoot yourself out of your charges, you have S8 if you have to assault vehicles, you can concuss Primarchs (especially helpful if the Suzerain are escorting Guilliman) and you have ID punch.

 

The only downside would be losing out on some of the AP2 at initiative benefit of the Legatine Axes, so probably 1-in-5 to 2-in-5 at most, but still. I feel like I'd rather spend points on 2-3 hammers before I'd even look at getting any pistols.

 

Yeah I am definitely going with the thunder hammers vs the plasma pistols. For some reason I did not think of it that way at first but it makes total sense.

[GreyCrow]

 

2 Fearless blobs. Don't need to have Ventanus in CC, where he is weaker anyway.

 

 

 

Yeah definitely. I was picturing Ventanus giving out the Fearless bubble to 2 Tactical Squads, but it might be wishful thinking if he is part of one. He's definitely a line officer though, his buffs are more important when he is part of the line (by that I mean not hanging back hidden in the deployment zone :p ).

 

Maybe he's meant to be hanging in with Tactical Support squads a bit behind the battleline. Placed in the center he can potentially provide Fearless up to 3 tactical squads. It would also allow him to be taken in Rhinos in case of a mechanized army.

It's an original spot for a Praetor to say the least.

[Frostmourne]

Hmm. Still not sold on him as worth it

[Ishagu]

He's not worth it, imo.

The Ultras are pretty good in the morale/fear game anyways, and fearless isn't something that benefits them as much as it might other Legions.

[shandwen]

He is rather underwhelming in an ultramarine army, as at lower points he isn't quite up for any specific job and doesn't do enough to the whole army to be worthwhile, but at higher point levels our Primarch makes him nearly worthless. I do hope he gets an ace model so there will be two reasons to take him (fluff and beauty).

[Frostmourne]

That's exactly it.

 

At the moment I'm using Polux in an IF army and I can't see me dropping him. But Ventanus I can see getting shelved quickly.

 

So what DO people use as a HQ in around 1500-2000 points?

[Ishagu]

Chaplain consul or a basic Centurion with a power fist.

[GreyCrow]

Chaplain consul or a basic Centurion with a power fist.

 

For 1500 points, I get it, but for 2000 you're not taking a Praetor ?