Dark Angels rumors. update: Codex leaks, pg 28

[Chaplain Lucifer]

 

 

with standard of devastation it would be almost insane

 

we don't have standart of devastation any more.

 

That's was my point. Scout +standard+new stuff would be very very powerfull indeed.

And aparently RW bikes retain scout in some particular formations.

[Frater Cornelius]

The dream has come true. The new book has not detroyed the dual and tripple wing synergy through Formations. It has enhanced it. We now have the CAD for Greenwing, RWSF for Ravenwing and DWSF for Deatheing, each requiring very minimalistic choices. Check the NR thread for more info.

 

Overall, I am very pleased with this turn of events and start forging lists tonight, so that I can present my views on list-building as soon as possible for those who are interested ;)

[ChaosPhoenix]

Even posting unicorns could not describe how I feel at the moment ;D

[Frater Cornelius]

So many possibilities. I mean, this gives up plenty of tactical options for balanced lists without having to fall back to abuse. And the RW Detachment does not allow you to take FA pods, so we will not be the DP monkeys off all those wanna-be tournament abusers. A good day for justice.

[Stoic Raptor]

all the fancy stuff is tied to unwieldy RW or DW formations and so it'll be tough to field them together.

actually, I'm pleased with how easily one can afford the formations in C:SM and C:DA.  If you want to use more than one, it's affordable to go with the smallest units and run two or more Wings together.

 

Anyone know the stats for the Antenna Cannon in the Land Speeder Vengeance art?

 

I think they missed out on a golden opportunity to depict the LSV also firing out of its headlights and jet intakes, too.

[ChaosPhoenix]

*Deleted because I can't read* ;-p

[Frater Cornelius]

Black Knights getting Apothecaries. *dies*

 

No. That was the Command Squad. RWBK are further down the line and are the same, except they are 2ppm cheaper.

[ChaosPhoenix]

 

Black Knights getting Apothecaries. *dies*

 

No. That was the Command Squad. RWBK are further down the line and are the same, except they are 2ppm cheaper.

 

Damn you've quoted me before my edit ;).

 

But: Deathwing Knight Masters getting fleshbane. :D

[SvenONE]

Looking forward to seeing Azrael's new rules.  According tot he spikeybits rumor, he's been moved to LOW, lost his FOC abilities, his sword has remained the same, but his Helm was more or less just clarified to work on vehicles.  The new +1 to Seize is kinda meh.  Quite honestly unless he's dropped by ilke 70 points or gained some other serious rules I'm holding my breath for him.  He's really not all that much more impressive than say Tigirius, and he at least comes with the bonus of psyker powers.

 

Deathwing Knights seem to be a BIG winner, and rightfully so they're some of the more badass Astartes models on the table.

 

Can't wait to see more!

[HaSY]

Head to news and rumour section to check german leaks of the codex

[FarFromSam]

Looking forward to seeing Azrael's new rules.  According tot he spikeybits rumor, he's been moved to LOW, lost his FOC abilities, his sword has remained the same, but his Helm was more or less just clarified to work on vehicles.  The new +1 to Seize is kinda meh.  Quite honestly unless he's dropped by ilke 70 points or gained some other serious rules I'm holding my breath for him.  He's really not all that much more impressive than say Tigirius, and he at least comes with the bonus of psyker powers.

 

Deathwing Knights seem to be a BIG winner, and rightfully so they're some of the more badass Astartes models on the table.

 

Can't wait to see more!

 

Azrael was my most used HQ.  Losing troop DW/RW is a huge hit to him.  It's not like his stats or wargear made him a monster.  It was always his ability to field so much Ob Sec that put him up there for me. With that gone, and his alleged move to LOW, I doubt we'll ever see him on table top unless they buff him, drastically lower cost, or require him in a formation.  (Barring attempts at fluff use.)

 

Here's to hoping they prove me wrong!  A lot of the codex looks great!  It will require me to play in a new type of game with models I already have.  The sign of a good codex.

[MoonPhoenix]

New detachments on english:

 

DSF:

 

You could take dedicated transport, so we could take LR's - ok. But all units must start game in Deep Strike, so we cann't take LR - why?

 

 

http://forums.warforge.ru/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=60337

 

 

RSF:

 

All units must start game on table or in reserve - ok. If i want to take flyers i must put all units to reserve, because flyers must begin game in reserve. why?

 

http://forums.warforge.ru/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=60338

[Stoic Raptor]

 

You could take dedicated transport, so we could take LR's - ok. But all units must start game in Deep Strike, so we cann't take LR - why?

 

 

They don't have to - the Deep Strike rules are not conferred to the transport (Pg 162 of the rulebook).  So the transports would be deployed on the table, but the unit would not be embarked.

[SvenONE]

Alright, so far I think I've got the new madness.  Assuming we can take Grav Guns on our bikes:

 

DA RW Detachment (whatever you want)

SM Librarius Conclave on Bikes: Raven Guard Chapter Tactics

 

Attach each libby in whichever squad you need.

 

2+ re-rollable jink.

 

Actually even without Grav Guns that's going to be pretty rough for anyone who lacks ignore cover.

[Frater Cornelius]

Alright, so far I think I've got the new madness.  Assuming we can take Grav Guns on our bikes:

 

DA RW Detachment (whatever you want)

SM Librarius Conclave on Bikes: Raven Guard Chapter Tactics

 

Attach each libby in whichever squad you need.

 

2+ re-rollable jink.

 

Actually even without Grav Guns that's going to be pretty rough for anyone who lacks ignore cover.

 

That would only work on T1. You can also have a 2+ re-rollable with RWBK during Night Fighting or with the Dark Shroud nearby, which itself has a 2+ re-rollable due to having shrouded. It is possible but a very minor upgrade to what RW can do by themselves ;)

[SvenONE]

Azrael 215 points and a lord of war.

 

Very disappointing, I seldom see anyone really taking him.

[Darkangeldentist]

Azrael 215 points and a lord of war.

 

Very disappointing, I seldom see anyone really taking him.

 

? I'm not playing enough these days to get the lord of war crap but Azrael hasn't really changed much at all and some things appear better than before. No Deathwing and Ravenwing as troops is a blow but to be fair no one seems to mess with the force organisation charts these days.

 

Looking at the spoiled page entry for him what changed?

 

• He lost protector but gained Feel no pain as a base rule. (Overall a gain there. Due to an omission in the wargear section his 2+ save is apparently innate!)
• Combi-plasma lost the name and blind going back to just a master-crafted combi plasma. However since he has grim resolve he over watches at BS 2 (or better with the right formation) and if you take a sacred standard he can finally shot the damned thing and still charge. (So personally he lost out but other changes more than mitigate this in my opinion.)
• He gained a +1 to steal the initiative rolls. Minor and unreliable but still a nice thing when it happens and can very much swing a game.
• Lost the ability to make Deathwing and Ravenwing troops. (Flat loss and hurts.)
• Ability to choose warlord trait remained unchanged but some of the traits changed making this overall a better ability. 
• Lion helm now grants an invulnerable save to the transport he's embarked on.

 

Cost remained unchanged as did his profile and the sword of secrets (I agree that this is a very vexing pity) so unless troop manipulation was the only thing you cared about for Azrael then I'd say he's about the same as before if not a little bit better. I weep for the lack of eternal warrior on him but there's nothing I can do about that.

 

My thoughts for Belial are quite similar. A few minor changes that on the whole appear to have made them more rounded entries and no worse than before as individual characters.

[SvenONE]

 

Very disappointing, I seldom see anyone really taking him.

 

? I'm not playing enough these days to get the lord of war crap but Azrael hasn't really changed much at all and some things appear better than before. No Deathwing and Ravenwing as troops is a blow but to be fair no one seems to mess with the force organisation charts these days.

 

Looking at the spoiled page entry for him what changed?

 

• He lost protector but gained Feel no pain as a base rule. (Overall a gain there. Due to an omission in the wargear section his 2+ save is apparently innate!)
• Combi-plasma lost the name and blind going back to just a master-crafted combi plasma. However since he has grim resolve he over watches at BS 2 (or better with the right formation) and if you take a sacred standard he can finally shot the damned thing and still charge. (So personally he lost out but other changes more than mitigate this in my opinion.)
• He gained a +1 to steal the initiative rolls. Minor and unreliable but still a nice thing when it happens and can very much swing a game.
• Lost the ability to make Deathwing and Ravenwing troops. (Flat loss and hurts.)
• Ability to choose warlord trait remained unchanged but some of the traits changed making this overall a better ability. 
• Lion helm now grants an invulnerable save to the transport he's embarked on.

 

Cost remained unchanged as did his profile and the sword of secrets (I agree that this is a very vexing pity) so unless troop manipulation was the only thing you cared about for Azrael then I'd say he's about the same as before if not a little bit better. I weep for the lack of eternal warrior on him but there's nothing I can do about that.

 

My thoughts for Belial are quite similar. A few minor changes that on the whole appear to have made them more rounded entries and no worse than before as individual characters.

 

 

While you make fine points, I see some major issues with this new Azrael.

 

 

1.  His cost is unchanged.  He gained: a slightly improved FNP (that's a 17% chance to a 33% chance), +1 to Initiative steal, +1 to his overwatch, 4++ to a vehicle, New warlord traits to choose from.  All of those things I see as 2nd and 3rd tier changes.  Who cares about FNP when you're most likely going to be challenged by something that's able to ID you.  As for the Warlord Traits, a lot of them I find to be pretty underwhelming for Azrael.  Precision Shots? Maybe if he had a non-combi plasma.  Fearless bubble? When everything is Stubborn and using your LD10, what's fearless really matter? Furious Charge is ok, reserves rolls are ok, the +3 to charge distance is probably the one you'll most likely take, and even then you better be choosing your opponents carefully.  As for the 4++ for a vehicle? What that essentially means is paying nearly another Landraider's cost, to give a Landraider a 4++.  I think I'd rather just bring a whole extra Landraider.  

 

2.  He's a Lord of War. This means that no matter what, whether you're taking a CAD or a formation/detachment you're going to be paying for another HQ.  This means that if you want to run a legal list, Azrael really clocks in closer to 300 points. to run.  Sure Calgar costs about that much on his own, but look at what he's truly bringing to the table.  You can put Calgar on the table and use him quite recklessly.  Azrael you need to basically put in a Landraider and hope that 4++ protects your 200+ point boondoggle.  Unbound list not-withstanding.

 

All in all, I'd like to see him below 200 points, but I can stomach it with some of these changes.  It's the LOW that's the most egregious.  It feels as though the reason he's a LOW is not because of any of his stats, wargear, or special rules; but simply because of his title as Chapter Master.  He just doesn't belong there.  He's the most expensive support HQ out there and pales in comparison to Calgar, Draigo, Dante and the Dog.

 

Will I try him once or twice? Sure, but I still don't see you bringing him in a list below 2000, maybe even 2500.

[Amnesiadidit]

 

 

Very disappointing, I seldom see anyone really taking him.

 

? I'm not playing enough these days to get the lord of war crap but Azrael hasn't really changed much at all and some things appear better than before. No Deathwing and Ravenwing as troops is a blow but to be fair no one seems to mess with the force organisation charts these days.

 

Looking at the spoiled page entry for him what changed?

 

• He lost protector but gained Feel no pain as a base rule. (Overall a gain there. Due to an omission in the wargear section his 2+ save is apparently innate!)
• Combi-plasma lost the name and blind going back to just a master-crafted combi plasma. However since he has grim resolve he over watches at BS 2 (or better with the right formation) and if you take a sacred standard he can finally shot the damned thing and still charge. (So personally he lost out but other changes more than mitigate this in my opinion.)
• He gained a +1 to steal the initiative rolls. Minor and unreliable but still a nice thing when it happens and can very much swing a game.
• Lost the ability to make Deathwing and Ravenwing troops. (Flat loss and hurts.)
• Ability to choose warlord trait remained unchanged but some of the traits changed making this overall a better ability. 
• Lion helm now grants an invulnerable save to the transport he's embarked on.

 

Cost remained unchanged as did his profile and the sword of secrets (I agree that this is a very vexing pity) so unless troop manipulation was the only thing you cared about for Azrael then I'd say he's about the same as before if not a little bit better. I weep for the lack of eternal warrior on him but there's nothing I can do about that.

 

My thoughts for Belial are quite similar. A few minor changes that on the whole appear to have made them more rounded entries and no worse than before as individual characters.

 

 

While you make fine points, I see some major issues with this new Azrael.

 

 

1.  His cost is unchanged.  He gained: a slightly improved FNP (that's a 17% chance to a 33% chance), +1 to Initiative steal, +1 to his overwatch, 4++ to a vehicle, New warlord traits to choose from.  All of those things I see as 2nd and 3rd tier changes.  Who cares about FNP when you're most likely going to be challenged by something that's able to ID you.  As for the Warlord Traits, a lot of them I find to be pretty underwhelming for Azrael.  Precision Shots? Maybe if he had a non-combi plasma.  Fearless bubble? When everything is Stubborn and using your LD10, what's fearless really matter? Furious Charge is ok, reserves rolls are ok, the +3 to charge distance is probably the one you'll most likely take, and even then you better be choosing your opponents carefully.  As for the 4++ for a vehicle? What that essentially means is paying nearly another Landraider's cost, to give a Landraider a 4++.  I think I'd rather just bring a whole extra Landraider.  

 

2.  He's a Lord of War. This means that no matter what, whether you're taking a CAD or a formation/detachment you're going to be paying for another HQ.  This means that if you want to run a legal list, Azrael really clocks in closer to 300 points. to run.  Sure Calgar costs about that much on his own, but look at what he's truly bringing to the table.  You can put Calgar on the table and use him quite recklessly.  Azrael you need to basically put in a Landraider and hope that 4++ protects your 200+ point boondoggle.  Unbound list not-withstanding.

 

All in all, I'd like to see him below 200 points, but I can stomach it with some of these changes.  It's the LOW that's the most egregious.  It feels as though the reason he's a LOW is not because of any of his stats, wargear, or special rules; but simply because of his title as Chapter Master.  He just doesn't belong there.  He's the most expensive support HQ out there and pales in comparison to Calgar, Draigo, Dante and the Dog.

 

Will I try him once or twice? Sure, but I still don't see you bringing him in a list below 2000, maybe even 2500.

 

I agree 100% on these two points, although his points dont matter to me, I would rather have an increase in stats and utility. Azreal lost big this update, his lions helm is the only reason to even glance at him. With the loss of making DW and RW troops I would have liked to see him give a boost to greenwing, or an army wide special rule like out of vanilla. After that they can ap2 his sword, make the lions roar infinite use like when 6th first came out, and finally boost his stats to reflect a real champ of the battlefield. He should also adjust seize rolls too since DA are master tacticians

[Syphid]

What bothers me is The Hunt.  It's completely wasted on Belial and Asmodai, unless you plan on parking them behind a Quad Cannon or Plasma Obliterator.

[Reynolds]

I made a happy comeback to the 6th edition from the choppy 5th. I got in to the 7th and I began to expand my veterans with the new gear that was shelled at us. Then the 7th was starting to be around and all of the sudden half of the internet goes crazy like the sky would be falling.
- Like a good brother, with extreme prejudice I glared down at those who lost their faith and began preaching something that was not for the ears of the true believers.

 

I thought of taking the stories & rumors by the horns and after the revelations I am shaking my head at peoples lack of faith. Azrael was always first & foremost a Commander, not the best duelist, unlike Belial.
- It's too early to make conclusions of anything yet, and thus far what I've seen, I've been raising my eyebrows that the fluff is kicking in; the unnecessary powerful items are getting out.

 

I don't want a Banner of Devastation in an army that shells out 120 shots from 30 Scouts with Infiltration/Darkshroud/Camo Cloaks, with BS4. I don't call this fair, and neither did I call the Banner of The World Dragon(immunity to all magical weapons/spells/items for the unit) a fair item in Warhammer Fantasy, even though I played the High Elves.

- What I call fair is that just like in the Master of Sanctity & Ravenwing, the 2nd company is one of the most talented bikers/pilots out there, and with that in mind I always ride my own personal steed, the Black****[RETRACTED]. We are the Knights in the Field, we are the Knights with our Steel Horses. We are the knights never yielding and we are the Knights never giving up our cause. If we run in to hardships we counter them... and this is starting to show with these new rules more and more.

 

And frankly... if the fluff is taking space over these overpowered items, then good riddance. The PFG was small costed for what it did; I'll take the "Veil of the Darkshroud" any day over the PFG, that it will be giving with these new formations.

***

20 years have I served, never has my faith wavered. The sky isn't falling yet, as we don't have the codex itself in our hands. But come what may... if; *IF* it starts to look like that Dual Wing is the only way to wield properly the "only Deathwing"; then maybe it might be for the best. The Bone Armour always had its issues if you had 20 Deathwing in the battlefield and the enemy came crashing in with a Plasma/Gravity/Drop Pod/Deepstrike Attack with AP2 weaponry on Turn 2/3.
- It almost killed the Deathwing Armyplay for me, in a bad way. Demolisher Battle Cannons are a common sight for me, so I started to use Dual/Multiwing after this and a lot. The new codex emphasizes this setup, and it makes the Deathwing more survivable.

But one thing I did do... is that I sometimes played the Imperial Knights with the Deathwing Army, and I teleported in at Turn 2. It was always a disaster for the enemy; worse often than Turn 1.

 

So is the sky falling? No it isn't. The Venerable Shadowguard stood with us at the break of 3.5th edition, as he had his fingers in forging that. I believe GW has looked in to this & the legacy of the B&C forums. I believe this will be our Clarion Call... Finally rules that emphasize our story, and I will take this any day over the present codex, if the rules make our army alive again.

 

- | Keep your faith strong & the flag flying high, Children of the Lion | -
- I look forward to another 20 years of Service to the chapter, if The Emperor wills.

[Dread_Hospitaller]

I'm with Reynolds on this. All of my deathwing success came in conjunction with ravenwing and other elements. Now the ravenwing are getting a HUGE survivability boost? And i can choose to stagger out my deathwing assault so I only commit what I absolutely have to each turn? Yeah, I'm ok with these changes. Loss of turn 1 hurts, in that it was half my games I chose to DS turn 1 instead of turn 2, and oftentimes it was a coin toss between the two to keep my opponent off balance and guessing.

[SvenONE]

Don't mistake my displeasure for the Azrael change to be an indictment of the codex as a whole.  Far from it, these changes are really good in the book.  I think they just missed the mark with what they are trying to do with Azrael.

 

If I had to guess, GW has an approach to their design philosophy to all their codices that's something like this:  

 

• Strive to make the main goal of the codex work (in this case it's our new formation/detachment rules)
• Highlight all the issues of a codex
• Divide up all of the issues mentioned above into order of severity and based on gameplay and financial success
• Change accordingly until a certain quota is met
• Save other changes for future release

 

If GW were to release a perfect book (even SM has some duds in it) then there would never be a need to release it again (IMO Necron 5th edition was one of the best books ever from a rules standpoint)

 

Azrael I think will get a better ruleset whenever (if ever) his model is re-released.

[Epimetheus13]

 

 

 

Very disappointing, I seldom see anyone really taking him.

 

? I'm not playing enough these days to get the lord of war crap but Azrael hasn't really changed much at all and some things appear better than before. No Deathwing and Ravenwing as troops is a blow but to be fair no one seems to mess with the force organisation charts these days.

 

Looking at the spoiled page entry for him what changed?

 

• He lost protector but gained Feel no pain as a base rule. (Overall a gain there. Due to an omission in the wargear section his 2+ save is apparently innate!)
• Combi-plasma lost the name and blind going back to just a master-crafted combi plasma. However since he has grim resolve he over watches at BS 2 (or better with the right formation) and if you take a sacred standard he can finally shot the damned thing and still charge. (So personally he lost out but other changes more than mitigate this in my opinion.)
• He gained a +1 to steal the initiative rolls. Minor and unreliable but still a nice thing when it happens and can very much swing a game.
• Lost the ability to make Deathwing and Ravenwing troops. (Flat loss and hurts.)
• Ability to choose warlord trait remained unchanged but some of the traits changed making this overall a better ability.
• Lion helm now grants an invulnerable save to the transport he's embarked on.

Cost remained unchanged as did his profile and the sword of secrets (I agree that this is a very vexing pity) so unless troop manipulation was the only thing you cared about for Azrael then I'd say he's about the same as before if not a little bit better. I weep for the lack of eternal warrior on him but there's nothing I can do about that.

 

My thoughts for Belial are quite similar. A few minor changes that on the whole appear to have made them more rounded entries and no worse than before as individual characters.

While you make fine points, I see some major issues with this new Azrael.

 

 

1. His cost is unchanged. He gained: a slightly improved FNP (that's a 17% chance to a 33% chance), +1 to Initiative steal, +1 to his overwatch, 4++ to a vehicle, New warlord traits to choose from. All of those things I see as 2nd and 3rd tier changes. Who cares about FNP when you're most likely going to be challenged by something that's able to ID you. As for the Warlord Traits, a lot of them I find to be pretty underwhelming for Azrael. Precision Shots? Maybe if he had a non-combi plasma. Fearless bubble? When everything is Stubborn and using your LD10, what's fearless really matter? Furious Charge is ok, reserves rolls are ok, the +3 to charge distance is probably the one you'll most likely take, and even then you better be choosing your opponents carefully. As for the 4++ for a vehicle? What that essentially means is paying nearly another Landraider's cost, to give a Landraider a 4++. I think I'd rather just bring a whole extra Landraider.

 

2. He's a Lord of War. This means that no matter what, whether you're taking a CAD or a formation/detachment you're going to be paying for another HQ. This means that if you want to run a legal list, Azrael really clocks in closer to 300 points. to run. Sure Calgar costs about that much on his own, but look at what he's truly bringing to the table. You can put Calgar on the table and use him quite recklessly. Azrael you need to basically put in a Landraider and hope that 4++ protects your 200+ point boondoggle. Unbound list not-withstanding.

 

All in all, I'd like to see him below 200 points, but I can stomach it with some of these changes. It's the LOW that's the most egregious. It feels as though the reason he's a LOW is not because of any of his stats, wargear, or special rules; but simply because of his title as Chapter Master. He just doesn't belong there. He's the most expensive support HQ out there and pales in comparison to Calgar, Draigo, Dante and the Dog.

 

Will I try him once or twice? Sure, but I still don't see you bringing him in a list below 2000, maybe even 2500.

One more new bonus that I don't think folks have pointed out: the Lion Helm is now being carried by a Relic Bearer, which seems to be the new Perfidious Relic. So he now also gives Fear and Adamantium Will (IIRC) to his unit.

 

Also, he can still pick the FNP trait for his unit if within 3" of an objective. So - if choosing CAD - the Az(and/or Zeke) Drop Pod bomb is alive and well.

 

Except in tournaments which ban LOW. That IS a blow. :-/

[Frater Cornelius]

Azzy with 30+ Guardsmen on an Objective. Add in an Inquisitor and Priest. Can you feel the awesome? ;)