Dark Angels rumors. update: Codex leaks, pg 28

[Brother_Darius]

 

But on the whole, 95% of this codex is better, with about 30% being overwhelmingly superior to anything currently in print. I mean, seriously, 10 black knights with a rerollable 2++ cover that can still fire as normal and then overwatch at twin-linked BS2? And prevent all overwatch against them when they charge?

 

 

You're right, RW have gotten a lot of cool stuff. I'm still annoyed by the detachment/formation/typo issues already discussed though. Hopefully we'll get an errata soon (but I'm not holding my breath).

 

Also, a small nitpick: in the situation you describe above, the RWBKs wouldn't get to overwatch at BS2, since they need to jink to ge the rerollable cover save and jink cancels the overwatch benefit of Grim Resolve. Would also mean RW don't get improved overwatch when using Speed of the Raven, which is a shame, because that's when they'll likely need it.

 

Forces from the RW detachment gets "speed of the Raven", which allows them to jinkturbo boost when the enter from reserve and STILL fire normally the next turn. (no snap fire)

 

Comparitvely minor issues I know, but still mean with RW you'll often be choosing between using one set of advantages or the other, rarely both.

[twopounder]

As a 1st company player, I have to say this codex is in dire need of an FAQ and it isn't even released. I must ask, as DW units have the option to take Land Raiders as dedicated transports, can you use them to offset some of the difficulties with the fact the rest of your army has to deep strike? I usually run 2 Crusaders with my Deathwing and at current it's looking very likely I will be playing my current army unbound due to the poor 1st Company detachment rules.

 

You would have to take a regular FOC with HQ and 2 troops, then take 2 deathwing as elite choices to get land raiders as transports.

 

Unless they FAQ and make landr aider's deepstrike, none of the formations or detachments can take them as transports.

[twopounder]

I'm a little pissed captains lost their relic bearers

 

Well, regular termie squads got them though. It's interesting that they removed stuff like infravisors that were such minor additions and didn't need changes to add a massively sweeping number of special rules.

[ValourousHeart]

The reserve or don't reserve limitation and the requirement that the detachment be made of units with the ravenwing special rule.

 

The reserve limitation under strict interpretation prevents you from outflanking a portion of your army like attack bikes like you would be able to do in a normal army. It also prevents you from taking flyers in a pure ravenwing strike force because of the forced reserves and subsequent loss when you have no units on the board at the end of turn one. You need to take formations like the ravenwing attack and support squadrons to have board presence. 

 

The ravenwing special rule restriction prevents you from taking Forgeworld units that would ostensibly be ravenwing like their flyers and special land speeders, but that's more up to forgeworld to sort out. The bigger problem is that we're still forced to take sammael (one of the better special characters to be fair) and can't take any other HQ because no one has the ability to get the ravenwing special rule. 

 

Formation being an all or nothing thing is not really that new.  But where other codex get take this with little or no options and play as you like... we get mix and match as you like but play this way.  It isn't really much different.

 

But it does fit with the back ground of DA very well.  The RW formation plays very much to how I played in 4th edition.  I would go second and reserve everything.  That would give me the last movement phase and deny them 2 shooting phases.  Back then my opponent would secure the table for 2 turns, then most everything of mine would come in on turn 2 for a devastating alpha strike.  If I was lucky they would have spread out to take the objectives.  If I was not lucky they would have castled up in the most defensible position.

 

I don't know what you mean about preventing you from outflanking.  If the fromation is in reserves any memebers of that formation that have scout or infiltrate could outflank.  The formation simply forces you to put the entire formation on the table or in reserves, and then that the entire formation comes in on turn 2 without needing to roll.  It says nothing about which board edge they can come in from.

 

It does prevent you from taking flyers.  It simply prevents you from splitting the formation.  The rules for flyers do allow for them to start on the board, you simply have to have something like a Skyshield to do so.  Also you could alway put your flyers into another formation like the Silence.

 

Yeah you do have to have board presence.  Well you do if you are strickly following the rules.  But answer me this... You ask me to play again of 40k.  Either you win the roll to go first or I let you go first.  You deploy, and I tell you that my list is a formation that comes in all at once, like Drop Pods.  So you take your first turn.  Now on my turn 1 I tell you that my army doesn't arrive till turn 2, and that you are welcome to win the game right here, pack up and go home, or we can continue playing.  Would you continue playing or would you Win-Quit?

 

Now I understand that you couldn't do that at a tournament... but that is because the person across the table from you isn't there to have fun.  They are there to win, because there is money or prizes on the line... or maybe just the sheer joy of seeing you cry.  But I am making the educated guess that something less than 100% of your games are at tournaments.

 

I agree that Sammie being the only HQ option with the RW special rule is a bit concerning,  But I am more inclined to believe that the other HQ slots may be filled with characters mounted on Bikes, then them intending that Sammie is the only available HQ for all three slots.  Does it suck that we have to have an FAQ right out of the gate, eh not really.  This fix will be far easier than fixing the DW Sarg in the last codex.

 

So the question becomes how is this fixed.  I think the reason that the chaplain and the Librarian don't have the RW rule is that they don't want those HQ to be able to re-roll their Jink save.  Or maybe they intended the RW rule to be applied to the Bike as they didn't want people claiming that their Chaplain in TDA armor also got a re-rollable Jink Save .  Don't laugh, you and I both know someone that would try to claim that, every gaming group and FLGS has that guy.

 

But the simple game plans that I can see with that formation rules is when combined with DW, GW or more RW.  With DW, the entire RW is deployed on the table and turboboosts across the table to cover as much ground as possible.  They count as having Jink, but get to fire as though they didn't.  Turn 2 the DW come down on the homers and together they unleash hell.

 

With GW hold the RW in Reserves to and have them come in on turn 2 to crush everything at one.

 

Now I am assuming that you can field the auziliary choices from the Lion's Blade with either the the RW or DW Strike Forces.  If so then combining the to different aspects of how the RW preformed above with the DW and GW should work well with RW in both roles.

 

But really the fact that the rules work so well when using elements of each of the wings is because that is how GW would like us to play the game.  The fact that we want to play with just elements of one of those wings means that we have to make adjustments to over come our self imposed limitations.  And hey I'm right there with you on those limitations... I got rid of all of my GW and DW models back in 3rd edition, and have no intention of ever getting any more.  If I want to play PA models, I bust out my Sisters of Battle.

[ValourousHeart]

Also, Deathwing Vehicle completely gone? As well as dozer blades? They really shafted DW on this book. If you want terminators, bring the psychic ones IMO.

Dozer Blades aren't gone. Page 154 under Vehicle Equipment there is a grey box... first item says Dozer Blade.

Ratchet it down Chicken Little, DW are not shafted with the loss of DW Vehicle.

It might be a case of you being so desperate to find something wrong that you are overlooking what is right in front of you.

(the dozer blade is the clearest example of that).

Except the 4 next to dozer blade means it can't be taken by land raiders .

What 4 are you taking about?

There isn't a foot note on any of the landraider pages (136-138) or on the a vehicle equipment page (154), nor in the BRB.

Oh the armory... damn they hid that well didn't they.

Sorry about that.

[depthcharge12]

Alright, so I did some shenanigans with some list building and all the new formations and detachments they just gave us:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's what we can field at 1850 points -

 

 

Lion's Blade

 

Chaplain 105

+ bike

 

3 * (5) tactical marines 315 (105*3)

+ 3 Grav Cannons

 

5 Assault Marines 90

+ jump packs, flamer

 

5 devastators 110

+ 1 lascannon, 2 Multi meltas

 

 

Silence Squad detachment

 

2 Nephalim fighters 345

+ one with avenger swapped for lascannons

 

1 Dark Talon 160

 

 

Ravenwing Support Squad

 

1 Land Speeder Vengeance 135

+ Assault Cannon

 

2 Land Speeders 150

+ 2 Typhoon launchers

 

 

Ravenwing Strike Force Formation

 

Sammael 200

 

2 Black knight squads (3 Knights) 240

 

 

Total points: 1850

 

Lots of shenanigans to go around...no real direction for the force as you can see, but all the MSU can be annoying with OS on 5 squads while the THREE FLYERS and Sam and sons come on the subsequent turns to boost on and deal pain. Lots of ravenwing units to benefit from the support squad rules.

 

This wasn't meant for a list breakdown but more of a fun list I was shooting around :D

[EmptyVector]

 

As a 1st company player, I have to say this codex is in dire need of an FAQ and it isn't even released. I must ask, as DW units have the option to take Land Raiders as dedicated transports, can you use them to offset some of the difficulties with the fact the rest of your army has to deep strike? I usually run 2 Crusaders with my Deathwing and at current it's looking very likely I will be playing my current army unbound due to the poor 1st Company detachment rules.

 

You would have to take a regular FOC with HQ and 2 troops, then take 2 deathwing as elite choices to get land raiders as transports.

 

Unless they FAQ and make landr aider's deepstrike, none of the formations or detachments can take them as transports.

 

What I find weird about the wording is the restrictions for the detachment state that only Deathwing and Dedicated transports can be taken in the Deathwing detachment. You can deploy squads outside of their dedicated transports so I am curious to see if you can deploy the dedicated Land Raiders but have the squad in deepstrike. If that is indeed the case, I can think of a few nasty combinations which will work.

[Orkinstein]

Now sm got new similar conclave formation that only need 3-5 librarians and they can use warp charges on 2+.

Our Dark Angels Librarius Conclave Formation still on gw website. So I guess we don't have a new one in new codex? We have to use Ezekiel + 2-4 librarians which is more expensive if sm doesn't use Tigurius. And we only can use warp charges on 3+. But we get 24" Mind Worm although only Assault 1 instead D3. If we can cast Mind Wipe at 2+, that will be amazing...

Any Thoughts?

[palin2222]

As a 1st company player, I have to say this codex is in dire need of an FAQ and it isn't even released. I must ask, as DW units have the option to take Land Raiders as dedicated transports, can you use them to offset some of the difficulties with the fact the rest of your army has to deep strike? I usually run 2 Crusaders with my Deathwing and at current it's looking very likely I will be playing my current army unbound due to the poor 1st Company detachment rules.

Why play unbound? You still have the option to play CAD which is no different then you have ever played it. 

[lcannard]

There's no way to take DW as troops anymore. Pure Deathwing armies are DOA this codex.

[Slips]

There's no way to take DW as troops anymore. Pure Deathwing armies are DOA this codex.

Why lament the loss of taking them as Troops when theres Formations in the book that do just that?

[lcannard]

 

There's no way to take DW as troops anymore. Pure Deathwing armies are DOA this codex.

Why lament the loss of taking them as Troops when theres Formations in the book that do just that?

 

 

Because if you take those formations, your DW must start in deep strike. So if you take only DW, you auto lose.

[Slips]

 

 

There's no way to take DW as troops anymore. Pure Deathwing armies are DOA this codex.

Why lament the loss of taking them as Troops when theres Formations in the book that do just that?

 

 

Because if you take those formations, your DW must start in deep strike. So if you take only DW, you auto lose.

 

Give them a Land Raider Dedicated Transport. It doesn't have the Deathwing Special Rule and is thus Exempt from being forced to start in Deep Strike Reserves.

 

Problem Solved.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

If they asked me if I would trade the ability to field terminators/bikes as troops for a kick ass codex.. I would. And that what we have this time. A kick ass Codex. We lost some stuff that we can get around, but we got a ton more than we lost. Checks and balances..

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Needs an FAQ, hasn't even been released yet.

 

Well at least we proved those people who insisted that Eldar were the way of the future wrong.

 

The bit about dedicated transports in the Deathwing formation are the drop pods for their Venerable Dreadnoughts.

 

While some aspects are better, and Dark Angels are at least playing the same game as Space Marines, I don't see any particular aspect as excessively powerful. Terminators are still too expensive. Ravenwing are still 4 points more expensive per model than Marine bikes. The HQs are still really limited to Belial and Sammael, and now there's no excuse to ever take Azrael at all. Pity, as I still like his model after 5 editions, while Belial is still a vile model.

[lcannard]

Give them a Land Raider Dedicated Transport. It doesn't have the Deathwing Special Rule and is thus Exempt from being forced to start in Deep Strike Reserves.

Problem Solved.

And then you are no longer playing pure Deathwing.

[Slips]

Needs an FAQ, hasn't even been released yet.

 

Well at least we proved those people who insisted that Eldar were the way of the future wrong.

 

The bit about dedicated transports in the Deathwing formation are the drop pods for their Venerable Dreadnoughts.

 

While some aspects are better, and Dark Angels are at least playing the same game as Space Marines, I don't see any particular aspect as excessively powerful. Terminators are still too expensive. Ravenwing are still 4 points more expensive per model than Marine bikes. The HQs are still really limited to Belial and Sammael, and now there's no excuse to ever take Azrael at all. Pity, as I still like his model after 5 editions, while Belial is still a vile model.

Are you sure its only for Venerable Dread Drop Pods? Because its worded as "Dedicated Transports" (plural, btw, even though you can only take 1 Dread in a Pod) which is pretty vague and non-specific and since Terminators can take Dedicated Transports too, the argument that only the dread can take one in a formation that doesn't explicitly forbid the units making up the formation from taking any Dedicated Transports is pretty weak.

[Volt]

Well as a fan of the vanilla DA Ravenwing and my own DIY Chapter being focused on knightly cavalry, I have to say this new dex is a godsend.

 

Tell me o' mighty vets, is this the first time that DA have actually not completely sucked?

[Slips]

Give them a Land Raider Dedicated Transport. It doesn't have the Deathwing Special Rule and is thus Exempt from being forced to start in Deep Strike Reserves.

Problem Solved.

And then you are no longer playing pure Deathwing.

How? You're taking a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport for Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Knights. The only reason the LR's no longer have Deathwing as a USR is so that they dont screw up the formation. And giving a Vehicle Fearless and Hatred CSM is pretty...worthless...

[Varizel]

I just glanced it while working but i seem to like the way the formations go... especially ravenwing's ones. But i think DW being cheaper is nice too, and without testing it on table kinda hard to judge.

Imho at least :

Cons:

* Only the conversion field is left of all our shield... no more displacer, no more PFG.

* Azrael still has AP3, no Eternal Warrior.

* No Formations that supported DW in LR, since they all forces DW to be in reserve.

* No more DW Vehicles

* Monster Slayer of Caliban still more expensive than the buffed Mace of Redemption

* Most likely we will never enjoy the benefit of Lion's Blade detachment.... and why chaplain? and not Chaplain or Interrogator Chaplain?

* DW formations/detachments forces you to put them all in reserve.

* No more standards.... replaced with just Sacred Standard just like 4th ed.

Pros:

* Grav Cannon and Grav Guns

* Str 7 AP3 Blacksword Missile with Missile Lock (which shouldn't have been deleted in earlier codex when we transitioned to 7th)

* 36 inch Plasma Storm Battery compared to the 24 we got before (hey... still a buff )

* AP3 Mace of Absolution, making them much more deadlier to any foes.

* Overwatch bonuses... kinda nice.

* Points adjustment on some units.

* Formations aplenty.

Edit:

* No more I1 Blade of Caliban.

Musings:

* It seems Landspeeders take the place of Attack Bikes now for RW Squads with the Attack Squadron formation. Before we would take 3 bikes, 1 AB. With how our Combat Squad works now, it seems it'll be Bikes and landspeeder with landspeeder fulfilling the role of the attack bikes.

* The DW formations/detachment seems to emphasise on mobility on top of Alpha Strike capabilities.... cheaper pts too. The detachment's limitation is horrendous though.

* Hammer of Caliban is a bit too restricting it seems with the rules that ALL must be in the same squadon. If on a heavily terrained table, it will be a nightmare to move them.

my 2 cents.

[aura_enchanted]

Needs an FAQ, hasn't even been released yet.

 

Well at least we proved those people who insisted that Eldar were the way of the future wrong.

 

The bit about dedicated transports in the Deathwing formation are the drop pods for their Venerable Dreadnoughts.

 

While some aspects are better, and Dark Angels are at least playing the same game as Space Marines, I don't see any particular aspect as excessively powerful. Terminators are still too expensive. Ravenwing are still 4 points more expensive per model than Marine bikes. The HQs are still really limited to Belial and Sammael, and now there's no excuse to ever take Azrael at all. Pity, as I still like his model after 5 editions, while Belial is still a vile model.

Ezekiel could make for some silly games situationally, bring the chapter banner and a dw banner, suddenly your deathwing tied to Ezekiel in an aoe of those banners have 5 attacks base each. Punch some sanguinary guard in the gut and laugh as they try to find the gold spray paint to cover up the hole in their chests. I mean that's 25 power fists and 5 power swords. C c c combo breaker.

 

And asmodai is basically a walking maelstrom of war card with his d3+1 vp for achieving slay the warlord. he could be fun in 1000 pointish games of maelstrom of war.

[Hjarl]

Its still stupid to have a dedicated LR transport, only to realise you cant have the unit it was bought for embarked on it :(

[lcannard]

And if that one LR dies turn one, game over.

[Varizel]

 

 

There's no way to take DW as troops anymore. Pure Deathwing armies are DOA this codex.

Why lament the loss of taking them as Troops when theres Formations in the book that do just that?

 

 

Because if you take those formations, your DW must start in deep strike. So if you take only DW, you auto lose.

 

 

True if you're talking just TDA equipped marines as DW... but using the Detachment you can put Dreadnoughts on drop pod and drop them turn one or LR as dedicated transport. Detachment though yeah, not Formations. The Detachment itself kinda forces you to take another Detachment anyway consisting of RW, since one of the benefit of having the RW would be deep striking terminators willy nilly without rolling reserve rolls. Which could be big, since you can dictate 3 DW squads drop on left turn 2, 2 on middle turn 3 while the rest converging. Not too shabby i thought. Just not a stand alone detachment methinks though.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

 

Needs an FAQ, hasn't even been released yet.

 

Well at least we proved those people who insisted that Eldar were the way of the future wrong.

 

The bit about dedicated transports in the Deathwing formation are the drop pods for their Venerable Dreadnoughts.

 

While some aspects are better, and Dark Angels are at least playing the same game as Space Marines, I don't see any particular aspect as excessively powerful. Terminators are still too expensive. Ravenwing are still 4 points more expensive per model than Marine bikes. The HQs are still really limited to Belial and Sammael, and now there's no excuse to ever take Azrael at all. Pity, as I still like his model after 5 editions, while Belial is still a vile model.

Are you sure its only for Venerable Dread Drop Pods? Because its worded as "Dedicated Transports" (plural, btw, even though you can only take 1 Dread in a Pod) which is pretty vague and non-specific and since Terminators can take Dedicated Transports too, the argument that only the dread can take one in a formation that doesn't explicitly forbid the units making up the formation from taking any Dedicated Transports is pretty weak.

 

 

You can have up to 12 Venerable Dreadnoughts (but only one per slot, just as it says in the main list if they want a drop pod you can only have one Dreadnought per squadron). Multiple dreadnoughts with multiple drop pods is where you get your plural of dedicated transports. Every unit in the Deathwing forces must be kept in reserve and must deploy by deep strike, hence the drop pod requirement and hence why you cannot take Land Raiders. Unlike Blood Angels, Dark Angels don't drop Land Raiders from Thunderhawks (although Blood Angels can't do it now either if I recall correctly).