Black Book - Insurrection (PUBLISHED)

[Slips]

 

 

 

 

True Enough. Or, simply, Dreadnoughts (any kind and pods), Depthstriders (and dedicated transports) and Battle-Automata Listed are the only things able to be taken.

 

As mentioned, this would be unprecedented. No RoW is that restricting, choosing to strengthen and encourage a particular aspect of warfare or a formation of a kind. While there are limitations of different types, no current RoW goes as far as to limit an entire army to the degree you listed.

 

I'm uncomfortable with this idea and want to hear from the others, their take of it. Grifft, especially.

True enough. Honestly it reads more as a Formation than it does RoW but the idea was "Big and Stompy" and PA Marines didn't really fit that.

 

 

In which case, I'd suggest just focusing on the dreadnoughts, since they fit the theme of 'rebirth in a different form' that Santor goes through. I don't know about the battle-automata, are they the robots with human brains for CPUs?

Not human brains (you're probably thinking of Penitent Engines there) but yes, organic brains.

 

No, Penitent Engines are people strapped to the machine.

 

Battle Automata are Synthetic Brains that are Programmed.

Thallax are....this:

 

Dreadnoughts we all know about.

[Big Bad Squig]

 

 

 

 

Ditching FC would save 10 points, bringing him down to 222. 

 

The Fearless though... I rate Fearless and Stubborn as the same since Fearless comes with a couple of downsides, whereas Stubborn has no such disadvantage. 

 

If the emphasis is on resiliency, why does he have Deflagrate? 

 

 

The deflagrate was to make his weapon more specialised than just a Ripper Glaive - how about removing one of his wounds, bringing him down to three?

[bluntblade]

Oh

[Grifftofer]

 

 

 

 

True Enough. Or, simply, Dreadnoughts (any kind and pods), Depthstriders (and dedicated transports) and Battle-Automata Listed are the only things able to be taken.

 

As mentioned, this would be unprecedented. No RoW is that restricting, choosing to strengthen and encourage a particular aspect of warfare or a formation of a kind. While there are limitations of different types, no current RoW goes as far as to limit an entire army to the degree you listed.

 

I'm uncomfortable with this idea and want to hear from the others, their take of it. Grifft, especially.

 

True enough. Honestly it reads more as a Formation than it does RoW but the idea was "Big and Stompy" and PA Marines didn't really fit that.

 

 

 

In which case, I'd suggest just focusing on the dreadnoughts, since they fit the theme of 'rebirth in a different form' that Santor goes through. I don't know about the battle-automata, are they the robots with human brains for CPUs?

 

Thinking about it, the Fury of the Ancients RoW is pretty close to what I want. Just need to bolt some extras here and there and it might be serviceable.

 

A combination of that and the Brethren of Iron RoW seems like a good fit. I have some ideas, but its kinda late, so they may have to wait until the morning.

[simison]

 

 

 

 

 

Ditching FC would save 10 points, bringing him down to 222. 

 

The Fearless though... I rate Fearless and Stubborn as the same since Fearless comes with a couple of downsides, whereas Stubborn has no such disadvantage. 

 

If the emphasis is on resiliency, why does he have Deflagrate? 

 

 

The deflagrate was to make his weapon more specialised than just a Ripper Glaive - how about removing one of his wounds, bringing him down to three?

 

 

That would bring him down to 212, little heavy, but not unbearable. I'll approve it.

 

Also, I did get Alexander's calculations at the top of Page 60 and made some suggested cuts. What do you think of that?

[Big Bad Squig]

Oh, sorry, I missed those.  Yeah, those are good -  I feel like potentially we could drop the Thunder Hammer to a power fist and drop him down to initiative 4 to compensate for Thunderous Charge on the jump pack to shave off another ?ten? points as well.

[simison]

10 Point difference between Thunder Hammer and Power Fist. Initiative drop by 1 would be 10 points as well. So, it'd drop him down by 20, leaving him at 195 points. How does that sound?

[Big Bad Squig]

10 Point difference between Thunder Hammer and Power Fist. Initiative drop by 1 would be 10 points as well. So, it'd drop him down by 20, leaving him at 195 points. How does that sound?

 

Yeah, that's good. :)

[simison]

 

10 Point difference between Thunder Hammer and Power Fist. Initiative drop by 1 would be 10 points as well. So, it'd drop him down by 20, leaving him at 195 points. How does that sound?

 

Yeah, that's good.

 

 

Alright, I'll compile the changes to the two characters and pass them to Grifft. Next up, Koschei himself.

[Big Bad Squig]

Grifft made some recommendations in the Primarch Rules Thread I believe for points costs, so that's the newest version of Koschei if you want to check his most recent cost.

[Grifftofer]

SNIP

A combination of that and the Brethren of Iron RoW seems like a good fit. I have some ideas, but its kinda late, so they may have to wait until the morning.

Ok. Now that I am mostly awake again

 

So the three main things that you seem to want are greater access to both Dreadnoughts and Automata as well as a focus on the Depthstriders as the main Legion contingent. Would that be fair to say? Working from those points I think some rules akin to the following:

 

Effects

• Techmarines may join Automata units in a manner like Apothecaries (may not leave during the battle). All Automata units that are joined by a Techmarine/Praevian have the Implacable Advance rule, so long as the Techmarine/Praevian is still alive.
• Legion Dreadnought and Legion Contemptor Talons are a Troops choice, but are no longer an Elites choice.
• Characters can take Cortex Controllers* & Cortex Designators for +15pts & +5pts.
• Teleport Transponders upgrade option for Depthstriders, Dreadnoughts and Independent Characters for +15pts/unit and +10pts/dreadnought or character.

Restrictions

• Depthstriders must be taken as Compulsory Troops choices.
• May not take more Legion Dreadnought and Legion Contemptor Talons than Techmarines.
• Pionus (Wraith) is the only LoW option available to this RoW.
• No Automata units may take the Paragon of Metal rule.
• May not take Allies or Fortifications.

 

*The Optional Heavy Support box is replaced with:

• Optional Units: For each cortex controller present in a Space Marine detachment, 0-1 of the following units from the Mechanicum Taghmata army list become available: Arlatax Battle- automata Maniple, Domitar Battle- automata Maniple, Castellax Battle- automata Maniple, Vorax Battle-automata Maniple. Arlatax and Domitar Battle- automata Maniples are taken as an Elites choice; Castellax Battle- automata Maniples are taken as a Troops choice; and Vorax Battle-automata Maniples are taken as a Fast Attack choice.

I know it is more restrictive (and less powerful ) than the RoW you posted Slips (and also more so than the RoWs I used for inspiration). But I think that it is pretty fair overall as it gives you access to Castellax and Dreadnoughts as scoring troops choices. It also doesn't give away VPs for each killed dread like the Fury of the Ancients RoW and lets you make Techmarines into mini Praevians for added fun One small query I have though is whether you intended the Dreadnoughts to be only 'box' dreads or Contemptors as well?

 

 

On an unrelated note I just realised that we will need to write up what rules pass over to a Praevian's Bodyguard unit via the Legion Inductees rule...

[Slips]

Looks pretty good to me though I will mention that the Arlatax is missing. If thats intentional, then its ok.

 

As for which dreads, I'm a bigger fan of Contemptors, Leviathans and Deredeos than I am the stumpy Box Dreads.

[Grifftofer]

I'll fix the Dreadnought stuff to include Contemptors too. (And no, you can't have Deredeo or Leviathans as troops :P) The Arlatax was in part forgetfulness, but also I wasn't too sure what it did (not read too much on mechanicum units recently). I've since properly looked into it... and I'm honestly not sure. I'll add it in for now as another Elite option that way everyone can have their input when we discuss the Rite properly :)

[Slips]

Didn't mean to have Levis and Deredeos as troops. That would be literal insanity, just that I like them more than box dreads :p

 

For the Arlatax, probably have it as a more restricted selection since its without a doubt the better Battle-Automata when compared to a Domitar.

[Grifftofer]

Maybe simply limit them to a maximum of one maniple in the detachment? Realistically you'll struggle to get more than one or two units of Domitar/Arlatax due to needing the Cortex Controllers to bring them. Unless you're skipping all the other automata and dreadnoughts entirely that is.

[Grifftofer]

KOSCHEI KHARKOVIC 415 POINTS
THE DREAMER, THE LIGHT IN THE DARKNESS

 

                  WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
Koschei       7    5   6 6  6 6 4 10  2+

 

Unit Composition

• 1 (Unique)

Unit Type

• Infantry (Character)

Wargear

• The Black Mantle
• God’s Hand
• Blade of the Pariah

Special Rules

• Primarch (Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, Fear, Adamantium Will, Fleet, Fearless, It Will Not Die, Master of the Legion)
• Sire of the Godslayers
• Psychic Suppressant
• Preferred Enemy (Psykers)
• Bulky
• Weapon Mastery

 

SPECIAL RULES
Sire of the Godslayers
Feel No Pain (5+). While Koschei is on the table, all friendly models with Legiones Astartes (Godslayers) gain +1 to their Feel No Pain to a maximum of 5+, or the Feel No Pain (6+) special rule if they do not have the rule already. Additionally, if a Godslayers army containing Koschei loses half or more of its units, it may subtract two from the dice roll when making Morale, Pinning or Fear tests instead of one.

 

Psychic Suppressant
All blessing and maledictions within 6” inches immediately cease to effect. All psykers within 6” inches suffer -2 leadership. He and his unit may not be targeted by any psychic powers, and he grants all units fully within 6 inches +2 to Deny the Witch rolls.

 

WARGEAR
The Black Mantle
The Black Mantle provides a 2+ armour save and a 4+ invulnerable save.

 

Blade of the Pariah
                               Range      S    AP Type
Blade of the Pariah      -      User    2   Melee, Murderous Strike, Psy-bane

Psy-bane
The Blade of the Pariah gains the Instant Death special rule when targeting a psyker.

 

God’s Hand
                     Range     S   AP Type
God’s Hand       -         x2   1   Melee, Unwieldy, Concussive

[simison]

One quick question before I start up the calculator, is there a specific Primarch I should be using for the base?

[Grifftofer]

Guilliman feels like a pretty close starting point for a comparison.

[simison]

Koschei Kharkovic

 

Comparison Cost: 400 points, (Robby)

 

Attributes

• - 1 BS: (-5) points
  

Total: (-5) points

 

Wargear

 

• Black Mantle v. Armour of Reason: (-10) points
  
• Blade of the Pariah v. Gladius Incandor: [Psybane (10 points) v. Shred (20 points) + Specialist Weapon (-5 points)] (-5) points
  
• God's Hand v. Hand of Dominion: 5 points
  
• Frag Grenades: (-5) points
  
• Cognis-Signum: (-10) Points
  
• The Arbitrator: (-40) points
  

 

Total: (-65) points

 

Special Rules

• Sire: (-5) points
  
• Psychic Suppressant v. Preternatural Strategy ~
  
• -Blessing & Malediction Nullification (15) v. Forced Reroll of Successful Seize (10): 5 pts
  
• -Debuff Psyker LD (10) v. Unit Special Rules Buff (25): (-15) pts
  
• -No Psychic Target (20) v. Challenge Buff (10): 10 pts
  
• -6' Deny Buff (15): 15 pts
  
• -Total: 15 points
  
• Preferred Enemy (Psykers) v. Unyielding Will: (-15) points
  

Total: (-5) points

 

Total cost: (-75) point

 

Unit Suggested Price: 325 Points

 

Notes

• Grifft, how do the special rules compare?
  
• How come Koschei doesn't have a shooting attack of any kind?
  
• Likewise, no grenades? If he charges through terrain, he's hitting at Initiative 1.
  

[Grifftofer]

Hmmmm. Just out of interest could you use Lorgar as a basis for comparison? (Just wondering if my belief that Guilliman is undercosted bares any resemblance to reality)

[Grifftofer]

Having looked through the comparisons. I think the No psychic target should cost 25pts (the same as the equivalent upgrade in the Pariah Abilities). I also think that the auto nullification of powers should be worth more, possibly up to ~30pts. As it stops all powers in the aura and prevents their use against Koshei with no ability to counter. So any Iron Arms or Presience effects cannot be used against him, in addition to him being immune to targeted powers. That would still bring him up to 'only' 345 (the lowest of any Primarch in BotL or canon).

 

I think that Frag grenades can be almost auto included back in. And I suggested an Archaeotech Pistol for him, but Squig wanted him without any ranged weapons, which is why I suggested the Weapon Mastery to give him some added power in combat. (Which I can't see in your comparison, not sure if it has been equated with something else somewhere?)

[simison]

Do you still want a Lorgar-Koschei calculation?

[Grifftofer]

I'd be interested to see how going from Lorgar worked out, but it's a side project level of importance. So only if you have time/an interest in seeing the results yourself.

[simison]

After comparing Koschei to Lorgar, we came up with an answer that was almost exactly 100 points more, compared to Robby. 

 

Therefore, both Grifft and I think Koschei should be priced an even 400 points, while adding some frag grenades. Grifft, did I forget anything? Squig, how does that sound?

[Grifftofer]

I don't think so :)