Withershadow Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 So just to reassess. Elites Sekhmet Terminators = Raptora for better invuln and harness TK on 3+ - OR - Pyrae for Hammer of Wrath and 3+ harness on Pyromancy. Blade Cult = Pavoni for better run and charge distances and harness Biomancy on 3+. Veterans = Corvidae for re-rolling 1s when stationary and harnessing Divination on 3+. Rapiers = Corvidae for re-rolls Troops Breachers = Raptora for 4++/5++ Assault Marines = Raptora for 4++/5++, Pavoni for run/sweep bonuses, Pyrae for extra hammer of wrath Rotor/caliver support squads = Corvidae for re-rolls Charger/CCW support squads = Pyrae for hammer of wrath for 6 attacks per model. Fast Attack Bikes = Pyrae for 2 hammer of wrath attacks Seekers = Corvidae for re-rolling 1s when stationary Heavy Support Heavy support squads = Corvidae for re-rolls Honestly I am not sure I will use a lot of the generic options. Breachers are cool, but without Infiltrate or access to Rhinos/Pods, I still don't see their use outside of Zone Mortalis (where with the Zone Mortalis Rite they become ridiculous with a 3++/4++ Invulnerable save, lol). If using Ahriman or Amon, I'd be leaning towards Pride of the Legion for Corvidae Veterans or Armoured Breakthrough for cheap scoring predators and veterans/support squads in fast rhinos. Corvidae seekers seem nice, but I would much rather take ML1 Veterans with asphyx shells. Assault marines actually look quite solid, but I think I want to save them (and bikes) for my inevitable Blood Angels expansion. For the most part, I think I will be gravitating towards the unique units and the Corvidae generics. Caillum 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Polo Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Pavoni is +1 to run and sweeping advance, so less useful than a charge bonus. It's pretty much only there for harnessing on 3+ 99% of the time. Agree with the list. I think those are more or less the go-to choices, but I would say for the Sekhmet combining Raptora with Pyromancy should be worth it. WC2 on a 4+ is not so bad, to combine molten beam with the improved invulnerable. Edited February 6, 2017 by Mango Polo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Pyrae wouldn't be bad on Blade Cults either, just more attacks to stack on their ridiculous amount already. But they'd always be rolling on biomancy so the 3+ to harness edges out. Also didn't notice anvillus pods got internal guidance back with their points increase in the new red book. Definitely investing in one or two of those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Pavoni is +1 to run and sweeping advance, so less useful than a charge bonus. It's pretty much only there for harnessing on 3+ 99% of the time. Agree with the list. I think those are more or less the go-to choices, but I would say for the Sekhmet combining Raptora with Pyromancy should be worth it. WC2 on a 4+ is not so bad, to combine molten beam with the improved invulnerable. They have no ranged weapons, and occasionally you may need to run, so that's not bad. The sweeping bonus is nice because these guys are designed to mulch infantry squads, and it will be hard to get away from them. The harnessing bonus is good on its own, but the two minor perks are not bad either. Honesty the only "bad" one are Atheneans, and even that can be situationally useful if facing down Night Lords or in a mirror match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Its hard to say no to potential Iron Arm (S7 Ap2 w/ ~50+ attacks on the charge or 1 S10 Ap2 Attack per marine, with Toughness 7 to boot) or Warp Speed (8 Attacks per model at 10 men on the charge at I7) when dealing with the Blade Cult. Add in a character also rolling on Biomancy for Endurance and you've got some nifty shenanigans there. For extra lols, you could try rolling on Sanctic with an IC and aim for Hammerhand for +2S. Vortex and GOI are also options therein but the rest of the tree is pretty bleh. A lot of RNG involved, still, if you can get this rolling, theyre going to murder their way through a LOT of stuff. The only real downside to them is that they NEED psychic powers to truly stand out / shine and don't have access to invulnerable saves outside of cults/psychic powers which means they have to hit hard and take down what theyre trying to kill to neuter the return fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 A Raptora Forge Lord with a cyber familiar and refractor field/boarding shield has a 3+ invulnerable save. Defensive and rad grenades would both be very nice for Blade Cult, although you would still want to roll Biomancy. Pavoni may be a thematic and useful perk to stick on Apothecaries, since it seems like the run and sweep bonus would apply regardless. So for an assault marine squad I would take Pyrae for extra killiness, and add a Pavoni apothecary to make them better at sweeping. Also would be a decent choice to go Athenean if you face a lot of Night Lords or fellow Thousand Sons. The page on the cults is the one thing I'm missing, can you pick at the beginning of the game, or is it set at army construction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Honestly I am not sure I will use a lot of the generic options. Breachers are cool, but without Infiltrate or access to Rhinos/Pods, I still don't see their use outside of Zone Mortalis (where with the Zone Mortalis Rite they become ridiculous with a 3++/4++ Invulnerable save, lol). If using Ahriman or Amon, I'd be leaning towards Pride of the Legion for Corvidae Veterans or Armoured Breakthrough for cheap scoring predators and veterans/support squads in fast rhinos. Corvidae seekers seem nice, but I would much rather take ML1 Veterans with asphyx shells. Assault marines actually look quite solid, but I think I want to save them (and bikes) for my inevitable Blood Angels expansion. For the most part, I think I will be gravitating towards the unique units and the Corvidae generics. Breacher's are great now with Raptora, give them some Melta guns/grav and stick them in a dedicated proteus. Move them up the board hop out in front of a killy unit, let loose and then let them choke trying to kill the unit in assault with their 4++ Invulnerable save and defensive grenades, while your assault units get into position to effect a devastating counter charge ( I'd use the Blades squad for this). It's expensive for a sacrificial unit, but it does its job well, and even gets you a Land Raider without taking up a Heavy support slot. Edited February 6, 2017 by Athrawes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 I disagree that the blade cabal need powers to stand out, for one they get some no matter what(namely force), and that many force sword attacks for that price is murderous. They have built in discounts. Also the comparison to AL Head Hunters isn't quite fair, they're over priced. Along with Phoenix termis. If those units were well priced and the Sekhmet were in the same range it would make sense to compare them. But comparing something that's over priced to anything that isn't is always a bad idea. The Laern termis you might have a point with, but they were designed strangely to begin with. I don't think there was ever winning with them. Plus you're AL, you can steal any unit in the game. Magnus is mechanically broken; until he gets nerf'd you can't compare him to anything. And for the most part the complaints are more alongside "Good, but there's better." with the snipers. Sure they're the best snipers in the game, but sniper rifles are mediocre to begin with. Twinklined, shred, and ignores cover in one power would be broken on anythin-just had a thought*-g besides a unit of sniper rifles. Plus they'll be Corvidae with heavy weapons at BS5, the twinlinked is useless. They would be good against rapiers and automata though. *My thought is the power affects the entire unit. Master of Signal(s) with Orbital bombardments that have twinlinked, shred, and ignores cover would be insane. So average of 4 unlimited range S8 AP3 Ordnance shots with twinlinked, ignores cover, and shred. Plus I mean you could make them psykers to act as batteries or buff your battle line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 *My thought is the power affects the entire unit. Master of Signal(s) with Orbital bombardments that have twinlinked, shred, and ignores cover would be insane. So average of 4 unlimited range S8 AP3 Ordnance shots with twinlinked, ignores cover, and shred. Plus I mean you could make them psykers to act as batteries or buff your battle line. That's beautiful. Let's just psychically guide in these shells and... yeah, get wrecked. I'm reading through Inferno's campaign section right now (because I'm stuck in the airport for 9 hours, hooray), and that's not actually far off. They do things like destabilize a building and then empower the rubble itself to crush with the force of an orbital bombardment as it falls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 The power is not useless even if you're rerolling ones, because getting shred on sniper rifles that are always wounding on 4+ is pretty good. Plus, I'm half convinced they will be better as a forward nuncio vox and backup melee/anti-tank unit rather than snipers sitting on an objective. They don't score unlike Recon squads, so no point just parking them in one place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Any thoughts on the utility of running Amon with them? He can make their cover saves insane, Infiltrate with them, and tank with his save? He also forms an anti-deep strike and outflank bubble by being up on the board with them and doesn't even need to be the Warlord for the bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) The wording of the weapon upgrades on the Sekhmet Terminators is really weird. Any model in the squad may exchange their force weapon for a Power Fist with one of the following: Lightning Claw Power Fist Chainfist Does that mean you swap the Force Weapon for a Power Fist and then have to take either another Power Fist, Lightning Claw or Chainfist instead of the Combi-Bolter? Edited February 6, 2017 by Halandaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 The wording of the weapon upgrades on the Sekhmet Terminators is really weird. Any model in the squad may exchange their force weapon for a Power Fist with one of the following: Lightning Claw Power Fist Chainfist Does that mean you swap the Force Weapon for a Power Fist and then have to take either another Power Fist, Lightning Claw or Chainfist instead of the Combi-Bolter? Looks like a typo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Looks like a typo. I'm inclined to agree, think it should read "Any model in the squad may exchange their force weapon for one of the following:" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 Looks like a typo. I'm inclined to agree, think it should read "Any model in the squad may exchange their force weapon for one of the following:" I agree with this, it's the most logical way of seeing it. The book seems ripe with typos and misprints, so it's fair to take a more "conservative" stance on some of the more awkward rules imho. Halandaar 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apostle of the 30th Host Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 am guessing no, and that the rules are each unit with legion astartaes: TS must pick 1 of the cults. However does the TS psychic dreadnought have the LA:TS rule? Correct, vehicles don't get cults, and the Osiron Contemptor is not LA(TS). This also means it can't fire psychic powers through Castellax-Achea, interestingly enough, and neither can Magnus. How do the Cult Arcana interact with one another in terms of characters joining squads? i.e. If a Corvidae Praetor joined a Raptora Terminator Squad. The wording in the photo of the page only says 'the unit', so unless there is a restriction later on it would seem they overlap? For example, the stealth special rule applies to the unit if one model has it so this seems like it works the same. Does that mean that you can stack benefits on units? Like in the example below the Praetor gains the +1 Inv while conferring the re-roll 1s. I think "the unit" can be a single model. So if you buy some Apothecaries and make them non-Raptora and have them join a unit of Raptora tacticals, the Apothecaries themselves don't get the +1 invuln bonus. Does that make sense? Thanks for that. Yeah, that makes sense. So in your example, the unit gets the +1 Inv but the Apothecary doesn't, whilst only the Apothecary benefits from his cult bonuses. So essentially only models that are in that cult receive the bonuses. *Unless you take Athanaen, which grants a Special Rule (Adamantium Will) which then does affect a whole unit - i.e. only the Apothecary gains Adamantium Will as the cult bonus, however one model with Adamantium Will can affect the whole unit. Does anyone therefore think some Athanaen Apothecaries might be decent? If they aren't doing more than providing FNP and can't benefit from the unit's Cult then then they might as well choose something that can help the unit. Gives a bit of defence against other Psykers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Wait, if the apothecary is Athanean, he has immunity to fear. Does that spill over to the squad? Nvm, the logical way would be that the apothecary isn't affected by fear but the rest of the squad is. Edited February 6, 2017 by Excessus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 I guess Pavoni Apothecaries would have an impact as well, as they add +1 to Sweeping results. On the fence about whether the +1 Run would work out, or just for the Apothecary's movement within the squad, or what. Apparently most of the Legion's Primus Medicae and a lot of their Apothecaries are Pavoni, though. Which makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Looks like a typo. I'm inclined to agree, think it should read "Any model in the squad may exchange their force weapon for one of the following:" Looks like it, which is a bummer because for a moment I thought they could get PF/LC which would have been amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Looks like a typo. I'm inclined to agree, think it should read "Any model in the squad may exchange their force weapon for one of the following:" Looks like it, which is a bummer because for a moment I thought they could get PF/LC which would have been amazing. If you read it way too literally your power fist could have a power fist. That's also why I think it's almost definitely a typo, because it's too close to nonsense :D Halandaar 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Personally I'm liking the idea of tactical squads taking Corvidae just for the lols when it comes to Fury of the Legion helterskelter 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Polo Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Thinking some more of Amon, unless I missed any others, he can only join two units to Infiltrate: Recons and Ammitara, both of which are... not good. So because of Infiltrate he can't join anyone in a vehicle at the start of the game (like say, a Seeker squad). Alternatively, he can Outflank, in which case he can join other Outflankers. But then if you are not going first, you are likely to be wasting his 24" bubble of no outflank + 12" no deep strike. He seems perfect in general for leading a small force (and at higher points just for his passive bubble), but I don't quite see where to put him safely yet. Edited February 6, 2017 by Mango Polo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeratil Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Doesn't an IC with Infiltrate confer it to a unit that he joins (like Shrike although he has some extra restrictions)? I thought the restriction was only the other way around - you can't take a unit with infiltrate and attach an IC during deployment of any kind. I don't recall there being a restriction on doing it the other way around (I could easily be mistaken if someone wants to point out where it says you can't do this). Never mind, I googled it Edited February 6, 2017 by Zeratil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Polo Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Nope, if an IC has Infiltrate, they cannot deploy with non-Infiltrators at the start. Infiltrate doesn't get conferred to the unit, and Infiltrators MUST deploy after everyone else. Or, quite simply per the FAQ: Page 166 – Independent Character, Independent Characters and Infiltrate Change this sentence to read: ‘An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa. This makes Amon somewhat problematic. Edited February 6, 2017 by Mango Polo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Apothecaries can join terror squads and they still infiltrate, but that's just a "character" I suppose Edited February 6, 2017 by helterskelter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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