[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Baluc]

I dont understand the difference. In other Legions you need Troop choices without Support Squad and u dont need to take them with Pride of the Legion. Its the same for SW, just that u dont need Grey Slayers. Also Russ allows to use them and u can take another RoW. Taking Russ and Pride of the Legion is a waste. Also there is no mentioning in the part of grey slayers being compulsary troop choices that this makes certain RoWs unavailable to SW.

 

The Legion Rules say.

 

"Only Grey Slayer units (see page 230) may be taken as compulsory troops choices in any Space Wolves Detachment."

 

Rites of War that change the slots usually say something like "must be selected as the force's compulsory troops choices" So you have too musts, which you can't possibly do resulting in a RoW you cannot take. Its actually a much clearer cut issue than was first presented. 

[Baluc]

So up until now I've just been tooling around with Imperial Fists with plenty of dakka against 30 and 40k forces. I'm looking at the wolves and having a hard time figuring out how to use them but I think we're getting there.

 

Mostly I'm wondering if anyone has good experience moving 40 footslogging PA marines across the field (again been fists in 30k til now, we like to sit still). Answering that problem probably builds most of my lists for me. Right now I'm thinking of having the core of my army start with

 

Centurion - artifice, great frost, refractor, jump pack

 

Priest (speaker of the dead) - artifice, great frost, jump pack

 

Grey Slayers - Sgt artificer/great frost, 2x hidden power fists

 

Grey Slayers - Sgt artificer/great frost, 2x hidden power fists

 

Assault squad - Sgt PF/AA

 

Assault squad - Sgt PF/AA

 

Best I can count that's 1000 pts flat and leaves 850 (my locals preferred size) or 1k for you to play with. I'm thinking of just taking enough HATE to distract my opponent from the infantry. Maybe a pair of sicarans with MM on top and a contemptor mortis with assaults.

 

I actually don't like Fists on Grey Slayers. I don't think they should be in combat with units that require fists to combat. If you play against a lot of Cybernetica it might be worth the points.

[temneb]

I think axes on grey slayers all the way. Possibly 4 combi melts. Makes them good terminator hunters. If it turns out the Huscarl can take the great frost weapon awesome. I'm dubious due to the single price.

[LaLongCarabine]

 

So up until now I've just been tooling around with Imperial Fists with plenty of dakka against 30 and 40k forces. I'm looking at the wolves and having a hard time figuring out how to use them but I think we're getting there.

 

Mostly I'm wondering if anyone has good experience moving 40 footslogging PA marines across the field (again been fists in 30k til now, we like to sit still). Answering that problem probably builds most of my lists for me. Right now I'm thinking of having the core of my army start with

 

Centurion - artifice, great frost, refractor, jump pack

 

Priest (speaker of the dead) - artifice, great frost, jump pack

 

Grey Slayers - Sgt artificer/great frost, 2x hidden power fists

 

Grey Slayers - Sgt artificer/great frost, 2x hidden power fists

 

Assault squad - Sgt PF/AA

 

Assault squad - Sgt PF/AA

 

Best I can count that's 1000 pts flat and leaves 850 (my locals preferred size) or 1k for you to play with. I'm thinking of just taking enough HATE to distract my opponent from the infantry. Maybe a pair of sicarans with MM on top and a contemptor mortis with assaults.

 

I actually don't like Fists on Grey Slayers. I don't think they should be in combat with units that require fists to combat. If you play against a lot of Cybernetica it might be worth the points.

 

I can agree with you there but I also play my lists against 40k armies, a pair of powerfists are mighty useful tools to have.  But if they're not your cup of tea replace them with power weapons, or squad bolters, or combat shields (loving slayer combat flexibility)

 

Right now to stack that list I'm looking at

 

Contemptor Mortis - Kheres Assault cannons

 

Sicaran - dozer blade and pintle multi melta

 

Sicaran - dozer blade and pintle multi melta

 

Thats 550 pts (1550 so far).  Now I still have 300 pts to play with (thinking a leviathan dread with storm cannon and siege drill)

 

On the topic of Rites for wolves, here's my take.  The quote is "Only Grey Slayer units (see page 230) may be taken as compulsory troops choices by any Space Wolves Detachment. All other troops choices found in the Legiones Astartes Age of Darkness army list gain the Support Squad special rule if they are in a Space Wolves army...".  Okay so the context I'm getting from this sentence is saying that Tacticals, Breachers, and Assault squads are now support squads.  Okay thats plain, but Rites of War now add to that.  The phrase "Only Grey Slayer units" is referring to the fact that unmodified they are the only non support troop choice, not they are the only ones that ever may be fielded.  Granted this still leaves some rites inaccessable to the Rout.  For example Drop Assault Vanguard requires you to have your compulsory troops be assault squads, but does not have an extra rule allowing them to be.  On the other hand, Pride of the Legion explicitly adds new troop choices and requires you to take them as your compulsory. 

 

Forgeworld has a habit of writing complex english rules which require common sense and proper interpretation to utilize, this is a problem.  But with a little bit of ingineuity, patience, helpful players, and a U.S. Army paralegal, we can find a way to make sense of these things.

[SkimaskMohawk]

They technically don't, because Rites are all part of the Age of Darkness list. A vet squad in a pride list would still be a troop from the AoD list. Also Russ has specific wording that sets precedent on how the mechanic works

[SkimaskMohawk]

Also, why would bligh say some rows would be restricted if rows remove the restrictions

[LaLongCarabine]

Also, why would bligh say some rows would be restricted if rows remove the restrictions

Because even with my interpretation there are some rites that cannot be used.  It still follows Bligh's comment (ambiguous as it is), again we need an FAQ, and until then it's up to your opponent/community/organizer.

[Baluc]

The issue isn't that you coudl theoretically take preds as Troops in Armoured Breakthrough. Its that you have to contradictory statements. One says you can have 6 balls of any colour you like but the you must have 2 blue balls before you can take any more other colour. The second says you can have 6 balls but you must have 2 orange balls before you can take any other. You can't take blue balls because you need orange balls, and you can't take orange balls Before you take blue balls.

The support sqd rule is superfluous to be honest. 

[1ncarnadine]

You can't take blue balls because you need orange balls

 

QFT

[Exark]

The issue isn't that you coudl theoretically take preds as Troops in Armoured Breakthrough. Its that you have to contradictory statements. One says you can have 6 balls of any colour you like but the you must have 2 blue balls before you can take any more other colour. The second says you can have 6 balls but you must have 2 orange balls before you can take any other. You can't take blue balls because you need orange balls, and you can't take orange balls Before you take blue balls.

 

The support sqd rule is superfluous to be honest. 

Yes but why then not include an explicit statement saying "you can't take these RoW" like BA and Iron Hands rules (Rigid tactics etc.) when there is precedent for it (every other legion with RoW restrictions doesn't have this level of ambiguity). I unfortunately have to agree with assesment limiting us. . That said, has anyone had any thoughts on running Armoured Spearhead?  It'd be expensive but tooled up Grey Slayers in Phobos' might be a viable option.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Exark

[Baluc]

 

The issue isn't that you coudl theoretically take preds as Troops in Armoured Breakthrough. Its that you have to contradictory statements. One says you can have 6 balls of any colour you like but the you must have 2 blue balls before you can take any more other colour. The second says you can have 6 balls but you must have 2 orange balls before you can take any other. You can't take blue balls because you need orange balls, and you can't take orange balls Before you take blue balls.

 

The support sqd rule is superfluous to be honest. 

Yes but why then not include an explicit statement saying "you can't take these RoW" like BA and Iron Hands rules (Rigid tactics etc.) when there is precedent for it (every other legion with RoW restrictions doesn't have this level of ambiguity). I unfortunately have to agree with assesment limiting us. . That said, has anyone had any thoughts on running Armoured Spearhead?  It'd be expensive but tooled up Grey Slayers in Phobos' might be a viable option.

 

Cause its not ambiguous.

 

I have been looking at it, just take two phobos LR for my troops, and moving on. It also doesn't limit Drop pods.

[Nova_chron]

I have given that some thought but I don't think I'm going that route but maybe use bloodiest claw with a land raider squadron. I am trying to find a way to adapt my old list to the new rules we have and I'm digging most of it... the bit about our terminators not being able to get the great Frost blade is kind of a bummer... I had this vision of terminators wielding claymores and dane axes I'm going to do it anyway but really hope it's a oversight or that the theng (however it's spelled) can take one at least Edited February 7, 2017 by Nova_chron

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Also, why would bligh say some rows would be restricted if rows remove the restrictions

Because even with my interpretation there are some rites that cannot be used.  It still follows Bligh's comment (ambiguous as it is), again we need an FAQ, and until then it's up to your opponent/community/organizer.

 

Bligh's comment was specifically about the grey slayers being compulsory, and there's no Rite of War that's restricted because of compulsory grey slayers if they're not restricted...

 

I'm curious, why would rites not overide the part about consuls as compulsory if they overide for slayers?

[Nova_chron]

That bit on the consuls is the hardest thing for me to decide what to do... either always run a praetor or just have a regular centurion and take big man russ

[SpiritFox22]

I have given that some thought but I don't think I'm going that route but maybe use bloodiest claw with a land raider squadron. I am trying to find a way to adapt my old list to the new rules we have and I'm digging most of it... the bit about our terminators not being able to get the great Frost blade is kind of a bummer... I had this vision of terminators wielding claymores and dane axes I'm going to do it anyway but really hope it's a oversight or that the theng (however it's spelled) can take one at least

 

The way I'm reading it we can have any of the Frost weapons for our Terminators.  It says Frost weapon (Axe, Claw, Sword)  However both Frost "swords" are called Blades.

 

Unless they release a FAQ on it I think GFB's Termies are completely legal.

[Nova_chron]

Hmm interesting I guess because it is a separate profile I thought it wasn't available but then you have options that just say Frost weapon.... I'll see what my gaming group feels is good until we get a faq

[Caillum]

There's a notable distinction between frost blades and great frost blades. In classic Forge World inconsistency, they say frost blade & frost weapon, but they're both from the same parent item.

 

Frost blades are +5 points over a power weapon, and come in 3 forms:

- axe (+2Str, AP2, Melee, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy)

- claw (+1Str, AP3, Melee, Shred, Specialist Weapon)

- sword (+1Str, AP3, Melee, Specialist Weapon)

 

Great frost blades are +10 points over a power weapon, and have the following profile:

- +1Str, AP2, Melee, Reaping Blow, Master-crafted, Two-handed

 

Both are for Independent Characters only, unless units specifically call out the ability to take them:

- frost weapon (axe, claw, sword) on Grey Slayer Huscarl for 15 points,

- additional frost weapons (axe, claw, sword) on Varagyr Terminators for 5 points,

- great frost blades on 1-in-5 Deathsworn for 10 points.

 

Varagyr don't get to take great frost blades unfortunately. :(

[The Native]

Speaking of FW inconsistency, I don't know why frost swords are the same price as axes and claws. Anyone in their right mind would take the claw or axe over the sword. Perhaps if we howl loud enough, FW will give Varagyr the option to take great frost swords like when they gave the Justaerin 2 wounds. Terminators carrying great swords would be an awesome modelling opportunity.

[The Native]

 

 

Boom.

 

[..]

 

Space Wolves.

 

• Shock assault
• Search and destroy
• Pursuit operations
• Punitive and excoriation campaigns
• "brutally swift"
• "a shock-assault force as well as tireless pursuers and a peerless hunter-killer force"
• "its campaigns unsubtle, but brutally swift"
• "Conditioned to hold a near-suicidal disregard for danger"
• "a force that has honed in battle against [..] their own wayward brothers"

 

Aside from what is to come by official ruling, let's talk about the fluffside of tactics. To me the tactics that suit the Space Wolves' style of warfare best are as follows:

 

Seeker-squads Sounds like they are made for the Space Wolves. I wouldn't be surprised if we got our own special unit substitution for seekers. They are the most "search and destroy" units the Crusade Legions army list has to offer.

 

Drop-pods/airborne transportation "Suicidal" dropping into the heat and punishing precisely what has to be gone. Like a Wolf. Caestus, Storm Eagles, Spartans delivering pain exactly where it has to be applied.

 

Fast units Continueing the above .. either by means of transports or wargear like bikes or jump packs our units should be fast straight where their force is to be applied.

 

Anti-MEq This is another thing Space Wolves are about. Following dissidents. So let's bring squads designed to counter marines. By this I mean AP<3 ..

 

Unit size Holding the line or win by attrition ..this is not the way of an execution force. So small veteran squads maybe fit more than large tactical blobs. Or don't they?

 

I'd think more of a pack mentality would be there too, so 20 strong ccw BP and bolter armed squads wouldn't look all that out of place as a core

 

small units of Veterans are cool and can fit the SW fluff, but just don't run small squads for the sake of being small. Carefully consider the implications of such a squad size and give them the proper upgrades.

 

No artillery As above. Artillery is cumbersome, cannot be deployed swiftly and has its place in attrition based warfare.

 

Also: Furious charge over Stubborn.

 

 

Those are the basic principles I design my army around. Feel free to object or chime in. What is your vision of heresy-era Space Wolves and their tactics right now?

 

 

So, now that we have the rules, how true to the above do you think FW were? 

 

I think as far as the rules go the above speculation was pretty accurate.

Edited February 7, 2017 by The Native

[Robzilla]

There's a notable distinction between frost blades and great frost blades. In classic Forge World inconsistency, they say frost blade & frost weapon, but they're both from the same parent item.

 

Frost blades are +5 points over a power weapon, and come in 3 forms:

- axe (+2Str, AP2, Melee, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy)

- claw (+1Str, AP3, Melee, Shred, Specialist Weapon)

- sword (+1Str, AP3, Melee, Specialist Weapon)

 

Great frost blades are +10 points over a power weapon, and have the following profile:

- +1Str, AP2, Melee, Reaping Blow, Master-crafted, Two-handed

 

Both are for Independent Characters only, unless units specifically call out the ability to take them:

- frost weapon (axe, claw, sword) on Grey Slayer Huscarl for 15 points,

- additional frost weapons (axe, claw, sword) on Varagyr Terminators for 5 points,

- great frost blades on 1-in-5 Deathsworn for 10 points.

 

Varagyr don't get to take great frost blades unfortunately. :(

Have to (partially) disagree with you there.

 

I quite sadly do agree that the terminators can only get the basic ones (sword axe claw) as they are specifically called out and named as such.

 

However for the huscarl in the grey slayers, it's a much greyer area.

As it specifically says 'weapon' but also doesn't give any example, like you do on the terminators, I think it's purposefully vague, and meant to allow any of the options.

 

Plus it matches the points costs, to upgrade to a great frost blade, from a power weapon in the same way an ic would.

 

As am aside, (and not wanting to hop back on the negativity train again) I'm very happy with the rules on the whole... But...

Is it me or has the space wolf section been the most confusingly worded set of rules to come out of forge world in some time? Lots of ambiguity, confusion, and potential typos (at least I'm hoping the terminators wounds are a typo :p)

[The Native]

FW ambiguity is nothing new. Neither is their lack of decent rule checking or revision. Unless you play competitively in a tournament or gaming group I would think that you adhere to the rule of cool. And if someone disagrees, just smile and allow them to have their way. It's just a game after all.

 

And how much sweeter will it be to beat them after the fact.

[Gorgoff]

Hear, hear!

[The Native]

Well it'll be a shame to lose a Space Wolf player that isn't interested in exploring their abilities on the table top before passing judgement. But good luck to you brother. Until next Winter.

Edited February 7, 2017 by The Native

[Charlo]

Yeah, like all new reveals the judge before you try is pretty hard (and also what got this thread previously locked in part, so tread carefully).

 

Those saying that "well Justaerian got 2W" yes, they did. And Phoenix guard got WS5 etc

 

Thing is, they NEEDED these buffs else they were so sub par and over costed that no one took them and they totally went against the fluff.

 

These wolves TDA though? They seem great the first time around. Incredible flexibility and a top cost with some powerful abilities. Really ask yourselves, do you WANT 2W or do they genuinely need them?

[TheWolfLord]

There is clarification needed.

 

I was behind the argument that Space Wolves are not allowed to take certain Rites of War as it's clear RAW and seemed intended however the same wording that disallows Pride of the Legion also invalidates 'The Circle of the Varagyr' rule.

 

Yes the CotV lets Veterans and Varagyr be selected as compulsory troops but that still doesn't override the rule that says 'only Grey Slayers may be taken as compulsory troop choices in any Space Wolves detachment'.

 

That's clearly not intended as its a wasted rule for Russ but the RAW doesn't allow for anything else.