[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Robzilla]

We did a 2000 game today and I took 2 sets of 15 GS, amongst other things, and Hvarl was in the mix. My opponent was White Scars. The verdict was far worse than expected. While I lost the game by one point (because he had one single scoring model left, otherwise it would've been a draw), it was very close, but it only began to even out towards the end, but the game was carried by non-specific units like Outriders, Contemptor Cortus, Sicaran Battle Tank and even the Phobos was very annoying to him.

 

The Grey Slayers were no more after his second turn (bar one last guy who hid in terrain to get line breaker). I tried my best to use the Land Raider for cover and opted for night fighting, which went a long way of keeping the Plasma Outriders at bay. However, all the HB forcing those 3+ saves really took their toll and his Praetor did the rest.

Hvarl and his unit also bit the dust to his Sicaran and Plasma Outriders. The issue was that despite the scout move and transport, they were unable to catch his command squad and I needed them to fight his other bike units they could reach.

 

Without access to more HS and Artillery (I was playing Pale Hunters) I was also lacking ways to make him jink reliably.

 

All in all, Wolves have not done it for me yet. But it was only one game and I will try more. However, I feel mech, especially scouting mech, will be superior, because foot GS are just worse World Eaters.

Hope you don't mind me asking a couple of questions about this.

 

Do you think more grey slayers would have helped (target saturation) or would it just have ended more or less the same?

 

Also, How did the outriders do? I've been harping on a bit about them, so I hope they live up to my hype :p

 

Just a general thought, I do agree that making the Grey slayers mech is definitely a more prudent option overall (due to both protection, and the enhancement it gives to scout moves) but I'm in two minds...

 

I don't believe rhinos are the best call. Cheap yes, but ultimately prevent mobile Charges.

Land raiders would get scout only as a dedicated transport (armoured spearhead) but still caps the squad at 10 men. Whilst it is a decent squad, it will significantly reduce the targets it can take on.

 

With that in mind, what are people's thoughts on angels wrath, and using eagles for scouting? (well, outflank)

 

I love the idea in theory, but I can't help but feel that a turn 3 charge (minimum) is doomed to fail, and is tying too many points off the table.

 

It's hard (still enjoyable though!) to find a balance.

[Baluc]

Infantry most army lists include

 

Veterens

 

Legion Terminators

 

Assault Marines

 

Specialist Terminators

 

Very few Legion special units

 

When you get out of Legions

 

Its SA in Democannon Dracosians

 

tech thralls, but usually cybernetica so Castallex are troops. 

 

The problem with Storm eagles is Turn 3 assaults which for an army apparently designed to assault is a death sentence. In no way can we hope to play 4 of 6 turns and win that game. 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Baluc

[temneb]

Seriously grey slayers are a great compuly troops choice when compared straight up to tacticals.

 

Tacticals 215pts

10 strong, extra chain sword, vex

Sgt aa, power fist.

Rhino

 

Grey Slayers 227

10 strong, 7 bolters, 2 combi plas, 2 power weapons, vex

Sgt aa, power fist, combat shield

Rhino

 

So 17 extra points gets you, 5++ on sgt, 4 ap 2 shots on disembarking, 2 power weapons.

 

Seems like a no brainer compared that way. To me at least.

 

Add to that you have the flexibility to really tool them up and chuck them in a spartan, etc.

[Baluc]

Seriously grey slayers are a great compuly troops choice when compared straight up to tacticals.

 

Tacticals 215pts

10 strong, extra chain sword, vex

Sgt aa, power fist.

Rhino

 

Grey Slayers 227

10 strong, 7 bolters, 2 combi plas, 2 power weapons, vex

Sgt aa, power fist, combat shield

Rhino

 

So 17 extra points gets you, 5++ on sgt, 4 ap 2 shots on disembarking, 2 power weapons.

 

Seems like a no brainer compared that way. To me at least.

 

Add to that you have the flexibility to really tool them up and chuck them in a spartan, etc.

That isn't an apples to apples comparaison though.

 

A tactical squad isn't taking ccw, because they still suck in combat. But the larger issue is that Grey Slayers aren't up against Tacs they are up against Predator tanks, Veterens, Legion and Specialist Terminators and a smattering of Legion Specific units.

 

The only armies that activiely use tacticals are WE, RG, and AL. RG and AL are severly hampered against wolves to start, so I think we can expect to see them move away from their tacticals in favour of breachers. World eaters who do the tactical thing better than anyone with a buffet of free rules. 

 

Anyway, I am actively trying to be positive here. I'm going to go back to OA and see what I can pull up. It is pretty weak against Custodes but oh well.

[GraemePaul]

let's take an objective look at grey slayers

 

At base they are a despoiler squad, cheap infantry with a 3+ Save. So far so normal. So what are their strengths:

 

1. Every model can have access to cheap power weapons (I know of no other unit in the game as points efficient for power weapons)

2. Space Wolves Legion Rules gives a bonus to WS when charging and counter attack which means we will have 3 attacks in the first round of any combat

3. They are a little faster when running and charging

4. Warriors mettle give us a large threat range on foot

 

And our drawbacks

 

1. T4 3+ Is not normally very good on the 30k tabletop due to the sheer amount of marine killing firepower in the game.

2. Characters attached to the unit will interfere with our ability to use Warriors Mettle (let's see if a future FAQ amends this to pass onto the character

3. Being Compulsory Troops the current view is Grey Slayers limit our ability to take certain Rites of War (e.g. Pride of the Legion)

 

Now we have to take at least 2 units. Seeing Grey Slayers as a Tax is not an option as they will take up a decent chunk of our army. I see them being used in one of two ways:

 

1. Mechanised 230pts

9 Grey Slayers, 5 Power axes, 5 Combat Shields, Vexilla

1 Huscarl, Artificer Armour, power Fist,

Rhino

 

2. Foot Slogging 335pts

19 Grey Slayers, 10 Power Axes, 10 Combat Shields, vexilla

1 Huscarl, Artificer Armour, power Fist,

 

Mechanised provides immunity to Bolters and resistance to most weapons Str 5 & 6. They are cheap enough that they can be spammed in a psudo MSU format and should smash any other basic infantry and give elite units a run for their money for a lower cost

 

In respect of the other list options I think boltgun are not worth it. They do too little damage for the cost and prevent you from taking better options such as heavy chain blades or Combat Shields

 

I do not see the point in taking a frost blade for the Huscarl and I suspect that the Great Frost Sword is supposed to be for ICs and not lowly squad leaders (I do not believe this option can be taken and will get cleared up in the eventual FAQ) power Fists are cheap compared to normal legionaries.

 

Ways to improve Grey Slayers

 

Unfortunately, due to the minimum squad size adding a rhino automatically rules out a character and adding a character Gips warriors mettle. Noting this I do think that adding a legion apothecary to a 20 marine unit is worth it even if it means sacrificing Warriors mettle because of the survivability this adds to the unit.

[depthcharge12]

I think two ten man GS squads in rhinos with combis and bolters with a couple of power weapons sprinkled in would work quite well. Dare your opponent to charge you since you get counted attack and have a better chance in cc.

 

I think it's funny hearing that the wolves will have a hard time dealing with armor...well they are an assault infantry thematic army. There isn't a whole lot stopping you from running an armor list actually, but I don't hear any crying from WE players or NL players that have more infantry than tanks, quite the opposite. The wolves don't strike me as a synergy army, and that's reflected in their fluff. If you want a super alpha strike synergy army, play AL, RG, or even TS.

 

Worry about your GS facing off against contemptors, leviathans, and such??? Is this even a legitimate claim? You could destroy all those problems with cheap Javelins, quad mortars, and other spammy stuff. Don't know why everyone feels pigeonholed. HQs got you down? I mean they are actually pretty good since you've got a PM and chappy roles into one character. Seriously amazing for terminator units or GS blobs. Do you want to hear about how crappy my legion rules are in the DAs? Lol. I play around it and do what the army is all about.

[Ranwulf]

Are Combat shield really worth it? It's a 5++ Inv save in CC, while Grey Slayers can shoot with their bolter and then assault.

 

Ran

[Runefyre]

I think two ten man GS squads in rhinos with combis and bolters with a couple of power weapons sprinkled in would work quite well. Dare your opponent to charge you since you get counted attack and have a better chance in cc.

 

I think it's funny hearing that the wolves will have a hard time dealing with armor...well they are an assault infantry thematic army. There isn't a whole lot stopping you from running an armor list actually, but I don't hear any crying from WE players or NL players that have more infantry than tanks, quite the opposite. The wolves don't strike me as a synergy army, and that's reflected in their fluff. If you want a super alpha strike synergy army, play AL, RG, or even TS.

 

Worry about your GS facing off against contemptors, leviathans, and such??? Is this even a legitimate claim? You could destroy all those problems with cheap Javelins, quad mortars, and other spammy stuff. Don't know why everyone feels pigeonholed. HQs got you down? I mean they are actually pretty good since you've got a PM and chappy roles into one character. Seriously amazing for terminator units or GS blobs. Do you want to hear about how crappy my legion rules are in the DAs? Lol. I play around it and do what the army is all about.

We don't get quad mortars in our legion specifc RoWs. But otherwise I mostly agree with your assessment.

[GraemePaul]

Are Combat shield really worth it? It's a 5++ Inv save in CC, while Grey Slayers can shoot with their bolter and then assault.

 

Ran

I see it as an opportunity cost. My other army is Day of Revalation Blood Angels and combat shields on assault units (my command squad) does significantly add to the units survivability in combat (adding an apothecary is just gravy) while a 6+ is better than no save at all against shooting.

[Slips]

I don't know why anyone would feel pigeonholed into running Legion Specific RoWs. I play IF and both of ours are absolute garbage outside of VERY specific scenarios (ZM pretty much) so I actively avoid them because one has a VERY high tax (breachers) and the other actively works against itself (Hammerfall).

 

Hell, even playing without a RoW is fine.

 

Don't artificially limit yourself by thinking you must use RoWs.

[GraemePaul]

I think two ten man GS squads in rhinos with combis and bolters with a couple of power weapons sprinkled in would work quite well. Dare your opponent to charge you since you get counted attack and have a better chance in cc.

I think it's funny hearing that the wolves will have a hard time dealing with armor...well they are an assault infantry thematic army. There isn't a whole lot stopping you from running an armor list actually, but I don't hear any crying from WE players or NL players that have more infantry than tanks, quite the opposite. The wolves don't strike me as a synergy army, and that's reflected in their fluff. If you want a super alpha strike synergy army, play AL, RG, or even TS.

Worry about your GS facing off against contemptors, leviathans, and such??? Is this even a legitimate claim? You could destroy all those problems with cheap Javelins, quad mortars, and other spammy stuff. Don't know why everyone feels pigeonholed. HQs got you down? I mean they are actually pretty good since you've got a PM and chappy roles into one character. Seriously amazing for terminator units or GS blobs. Do you want to hear about how crappy my legion rules are in the DAs? Lol. I play around it and do what the army is all about.

I agree. 30K is less about Jack of all trades and more about combined arms. Each unit should have a purpose. You want to kill armour bring las cannons or chainfists. Infantry you bring Ap3 or Ap2 close combat weapons.

[Baluc]

Could destroy with cheap Javelins... max javs have a strong probablity of doing 3 glances to an AV13 model before cover or invulns, and a good chance of doing 2 every turn after. Assuming cml and 2 Hunter killers. At 200 points.

 

World Eaters actually make a very strong Armoured Breakthrough army exactly becauae their infantry is so good at assault ie cleaeing objectives.

 

I don't really understand what you are trying to say Depthcharge? Should I just refuse games against fw legal mechanicum, militia or SA?

Edited February 11, 2017 by Baluc

[Baluc]

So Orbital Assault 2500. What are out options?

 

Boxnoughts

 

Javs

 

Fire Raptor

 

Levi

 

Lightning

 

Land Speeders

 

meltagun support squads?

[sturguard]

 

One telling piece of information- 59 pages of 1K Sons tactica, 17 pages of SW tactica.

 

Check again because I count 15 TS Pages to the SW 18.

 

 

Otherwise, At this stage, I'm pretty fed up with constantly getting reports about this topic. So this is literally the last warning:

 

Keep it on topic, keep it respectful - if you can't do either, don't even bother posting.

 

Yeah I confused the AL thread with the IK Sons.  Unless posts are being removed, I dont see anyone being disrespectful however.

[Slips]

They Are. Over a page worth at this point.

[Runefyre]

They Are. Over a page worth at this point.

Hope none of them were mine. I've been pretty positive I think?

[Runefyre]

I just realised. Pale Hunters doesn't stop you from taking legion artillery tank squadrons! It specifies artillery TYPE units cannot be taken.

 

Well LATS's are type vehicle (tank), so they're not restricted.

 

Bloodied Claw is more ambiguous, as it says artillery units, not type.

[Nova_chron]

Good spot there runefyre that opens a ton of possibilities up to get some plates for our mincemeat pies we will be serving

[TheWolfLord]

Grey Slayers are an assault unit. They don't even come with bolters, your assertion is disenginous at best. 

 

You are limited to Transports. He is in terminator armour which limites him to KAP, Dreadclaw, LR, Spartan. He can only be in a LR or DR with 8 power armoured models or 4 terminator models. Which means he can only Vets, Seekers, or recon marines. He can go into a KAP or Spartan if he wants to join any other unit. That is be definition limited. 

 

We're "lucky" to have an hq that lets a unit use its special rule... that is a disturbing outlook on life.

 

So unlike say a Primus medicea, or a Chaplian who can join any unit in the legion armour, he is limited to yet again Deathsworn, vets, or recon marines if you want a transport other than a Spartan

 

Where are these spare points? Write a list 2.5 I doubt you fit anything you mentioned in to it.

 

And, no its not going to put pressure, you can't disembark from a transport during scout. So to charge in your own first turn you must be on foot. Which means you get 6+6+1+2d6-1 assuming you have no characters in the grey slayers unit. Which is 19" assuming there is no terrain it drops to a maximum of 17" but more likely 15" if you have to charge through cover. And even when you get there you are over geared tactical squad, what are you charging you don't even have an apothercary.

 

How do Grey Slayers not have Bolters. They may not come stock but when every model can buy them for 2 points I think I was being perfectly valid.

 

There are many more vehicles he can ride in than you've listed, if they are the only ones you wish to consider that's your choice. I don't intend to waste my Fast Attack, Heavy Support and Lord of War slots. If I don't need to buy a Deducated transport because I'm using a transport from another slot how is that a problem?

 

We're lucky to have a HQ that has a matching Special Rule to our Grey Slayers and can run with them. I don't hang our Grey Slayers to,be in the same position as 40k Wulfen and their Bounding Lope, luckily were not as Warriors Mettle still has some use even if you choose to add an IC and we have an IC with the same Special Rule.

 

You keep footslogging your Grey Slayers, I'll put them in an Assault Transport and move 6", disembark 6", run 6+1" and charge 2D6-1. I think that gives them a threat range first turn of 30" if my maths isn't incorrect. I think that's certainly enough to cause my opponent to alter their deployment. I'd use the Scout on support units that don't want to charge first turn.

 

I really think being this negative before you've even played isn't helping anyone.

[TheWolfLord]

I may decide to foot slog at times, I may run with DT Rhinos too but you are not considering all the options available.

 

This is going to take some thinking but we haven't been hard done to at all.

[depthcharge12]

Could destroy with cheap Javelins... max javs have a strong probablity of doing 3 glances to an AV13 model before cover or invulns, and a good chance of doing 2 every turn after. Assuming cml and 2 Hunter killers. At 200 points.

 

World Eaters actually make a very strong Armoured Breakthrough army exactly becauae their infantry is so good at assault ie cleaeing objectives.

 

I don't really understand what you are trying to say Depthcharge? Should I just refuse games against fw legal mechanicum, militia or SA?

I think you could beat them, you just need to know what you're facing. Truth be told, what does your meta look like? I can understand if you face a bunch of stuff, and I wish I had more variety, but are you fighting shadows?

 

If I knew what you're meta looks like I could help. I'm of the opinion that I like strong choices that make for competition but not to the point where I'm spamming or feel the desire to table my opponents...I prefer to play with my prey before killing it :devil:

 

I'd say an orbital list would work quite well, look at:

 

2000 points

 

Praetor (orbital assault)

+ Great frost blade, Tartaros terminator armor, IH, combi melta

 

Command squad (5)

+ Tartaros terminator armor, 5 combi meltas, 2 PS, 2 power fists, 1 chain fist

 

Contemptor

+Kheres Assault cannon, melta gun/fist

 

10 Grey Slayers

+ nuncio vox, 2 combi plas, 8 bolters, 2 power swords

+ drop pod

 

10 Grey Slayers

+ nuncio vox, 2 combi plas, 8 bolters, 2 power swords

+ drop pod

 

5 support squad

+ plasma guns

+drop pod

 

Leviathan

+ melta lance, volkites, siege drill

+ dread drop pod

 

2 Javelins

+ 2 MM, 2 lascannons, 4 HK missiles

 

2 Javelins

+ 2 MM, 2 lascannons, 4 HK missiles

 

Edit: You have 41 extra points to play with (comes out to 1959 points)

 

edit #2: Contemptor still needs a pod, so find 59 points or swap it for something.

Edited February 11, 2017 by depthcharge12

[gizur]

Where is your second HQ?

 

I am going for 3k points Armoured Spearhead list. I think this could work.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hope you don't mind me asking a couple of questions about this.

I do not ;)

 

Do you think more grey slayers would have helped (target saturation) or would it just have ended more or less the same?

Hard to say without furthet testing, especially since I have been wrong about the potential viability of GS blobs before the game. I do not think it will work though. Even with Scout, that is just 6" and then 10.5" per turn after that (move 6" and run an average 3.5" + 1"). I was playing against a pure bike and jetbike list and they hammered them into the ground, hence I do not think even 60 will make a difference when actual dedicated infantry killers and pie plates take the field. You also have to remember, that taking so many GS is taking point away from other slots. They just lack character support and FnP to make it to the end. T4 3+ doesn't even need AP3 or better to be killed. Just force a lot of saves.

 

However, I need to add that I was fairly unlucky with my saves at times. But even if I was rolling average, there wouldn't be enough left to make a difference. They are too slow. It's the same with Blood Claws in 40k.

 

Also, How did the outriders do? I've been harping on a bit about them, so I hope they live up to my hype :p

They did well, even though I was forced to jink fairly often. Being able to Outflank, especially with the SW bonuses, made it rather easy for me to counter the opponent where he was weak. They died to a charging Praetor, but they took quite a bit down in the process. However, I am still split on them. On the one hand, they deliver the punch fairly well and are one of the few ways to bring firepower that synergizes with the Wolves. However, I can not deny that they are criminally overpriced. You should be fine, unless you go overboard. However, play them as a niche fire support unit, not as a main part of the army. You will lack bodies.

 

Just a general thought, I do agree that making the Grey slayers mech is definitely a more prudent option overall (due to both protection, and the enhancement it gives to scout moves) but I'm in two minds...

 

I don't believe rhinos are the best call. Cheap yes, but ultimately prevent mobile Charges.

Land raiders would get scout only as a dedicated transport (armoured spearhead) but still caps the squad at 10 men. Whilst it is a decent squad, it will significantly reduce the targets it can take on.

 

With that in mind, what are people's thoughts on angels wrath, and using eagles for scouting? (well, outflank)

 

I love the idea in theory, but I can't help but feel that a turn 3 charge (minimum) is doomed to fail, and is tying too many points off the table.

The one reason why outflanking and flier would be useful is to have it shoot the side or rear armour. I do not see why I would waste the Scout on a transport flier though. They are fast enough as it is. I am sure there are niche applications though.

 

It's hard (still enjoyable though!) to find a balance.

Answers in italic.

 

After thinking about it, I do think cheaper mech is the way to go. You see, we also need the Slayers to score and throwing then towards the enemy in blobs as the main chopping block is waste of scoring power whereas sitting on an objective is a waste of points.

 

If you mech them up in Rhinos and keep them cheap, they can park on an objective and support from there. The best part about a Rhino is that is it gets wrecked, you still have an LoS blocker.

This is especially true if you Scout them forward. 12" is far better than 6" and they may be in position to score and keep the area clear before the opponent can de-mech them.

 

Seeing as they can be quite choppy, I am not opposed to the idea of a Rhobos with 10 choppy dudes charging out and securing a forward objective or maybe even 15 dudes in a Spartan if you do not have anything else to transport, like a Primarch.

 

I think they can have a broader application than just regular Troops and do the work of light elite units as well. However, always keep scoring in mind.

[Brofist]

I can't believe people are arguing Grey Slayers are bad compulsory troops choices

[Robzilla]

I don't think the argument now is that they are bad, so much as they are awkward.

 

Stat-wise they are ridonkulous.

 

To take advantage of their cool rules however is where the issues crop Up, you lose some of the appeal if you pop characters in with them, but where else do you pop the characters? (needing so many, relatively speaking)

 

Also, you are capped at very small squads if you want to reliably get them where you need them, (via rhino or drop pod)

Or if you commit to a big squad, you are somewhat forcing them into a massive points sink (spartan, land raider, eagle)

 

Generally though, despite playing devils advocate above, I like them. They are too good to consider a tax, but not resilient enough to invest in as a primary attacking force.

 

 

I think the wolves are going to take a lot more getting used to than other legions have in the past. And that isn't a bad thing.