[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Runefyre]

*slaps self in the face*

 

*Enough ing*

 

 

 

I'm still determined to make Pale Hunters work. Here is yet ANOTHER 2500 point list that attempts to maximize on the benefits of the RoW.

 

Geigor

 

2x speakers

 

2x Grey Slayer squads (AA, GFB Huscarl, Rhino DT)

 

2x legion terminator squads (cataphractii, 5x power fists, spartan DT)

 

3x separate javelins

 

Fire Raptor Gunship (hell-strike missiles)

 

Sub-orbital strike wing

 

2x thunderbolt heavy fighters (hell-strike missiles) (modelled using Xiphons, 'cause they look way cooler)

 

I think this list has some decent staying-power and fire-power. All the infantry have H&R (as of current RaW) and can score, and there's plenty of target saturation.

[Purge the Daemon]

*slaps self in the face*

 

*Enough ing*

 

 

 

I'm still determined to make Pale Hunters work. Here is yet ANOTHER 2500 point list that attempts to maximize on the benefits of the RoW.

 

Geigor

 

2x speakers

 

2x Grey Slayer squads (AA, GFB Huscarl, Rhino DT)

 

2x legion terminator squads (cataphractii, 5x power fists, spartan DT)

 

3x separate javelins

 

Fire Raptor Gunship (hell-strike missiles)

 

Sub-orbital strike wing

 

2x thunderbolt heavy fighters (hell-strike missiles) (modelled using Xiphons, 'cause they look way cooler)

 

I think this list has some decent staying-power and fire-power. All the infantry have H&R (as of current RaW) and can score, and there's plenty of target saturation.

First things first

 

I think giegor is garbage a base Praetor wother refractor field paragon blade costs the same loses a bolter but trades the claw for a paragon blade. Giegor's Warlord trait is the worst one by far especially because those priests of Fenris straight up grant the same thing (though giegor's only affects him and only in challenges). So unless he's running with a block of grey slayers to use warriors mettle he's honestly best avoided especially as a Warlord.

 

In terms of anti tank you've got some 1 use s8? And that's the end plus I guess the odd lascannon you can't actually kill heavier vehicles. Honestly the reserve bonus is nice but you may as well have taken a Damocles and dropped a priest. Hit and run isMt to great on those Grey Slayers as most of the time there isn't much to hit and run with and you can't charge from a Rhino anyways, so there is no save from gunfire for a turn you'll eat it anyways.

[Runefyre]

Eh, Geigor's still cool. I agree though perhaps I should just run his model as a counts as Jarl. Then I have a chance at The Get of Wyrm Warlord trait.

 

Regarding tank-hunting, I think it's probably enough for most lists. I don't have to worry about titans, and the terminators can also deal with vehicles if need be (I could consolidate the power fists into 2x chain-fists 1x power-fist per squad if I wanted to).

 

And I'm not sure why people poo-poo the reserve bonus granted by Pale Hunters. DCR's are very easy to kill, and even if you hide them they can get alpha-struck. If I'm running the RoW, I don't have to worry about reserves as much, and can focus more on purchasing things that help me in combat, such as an additional speaker.

 

Hit and Run will be immensely useful when I face my brother's zealot cultist hordes, or any list that has extensive infantry spam. Plus if I get in a combat that I don't want to be in (and can't run away from because of fearless), it's useful to be able to leave if I survive.

 

Anyway, here's an adjusted list taking into account some of your advice.

 

Jarl (boarding shield, paragon blade)

 

2x speakers

 

2x GS squads (AA, GFB, Rhino DT)

 

2x Terminator squads (3x chainfists, spartan DT)

 

Primaris Lightning (4 kraken penetrators, ground auguries, battle-servitor control)

 

2x separate Javelins

 

Fire-Raptor Gunship (hellstrike missiles)

 

Sub-orbital strike wing: Thunderbolt heavy fighter (kinetic piercer missiles, battle servitor control)

[Ranwulf]

I will post my list from the other games where I  think they worked:

 

LoW

Leman Russ

 

HQs:

Hvarl Red Blade

Speaker of the Dead

Speaker of the Dead 

 

Troops:

10 Grey Slayers inside Rhinos 

10 Grey Slayers inside Rhinos

15 Grey Slayers walking (10 of them were wearing combat shields)

15 Grey Slayers walking

 

Elite:

Deathsworn pack walking

 

Fast Attack

Primaris-Lightning Strike Fighter (Kraken Penetrator)

 

Heavy Support:

Legion Sicaran Battle Tank 

 

One priest, Hvarl and Russ all march together. 

 

The Deathsworn were accompanied by one priest.

 

A big blob of 15 Grey Slayers were HQ free because then they can get to CC fast. REAALLLY fast. 

 

Testing wise - they felt strong. The only thing they couldn't take on was Lorgar massed super power awesome squad of Gal Vorbak. Russ alone with his squad is exactly what he is suppose to be - a missile. A killer. Even if his guys die, he can still wreck other armies because after dealing with the enemy HQ/Champion, he will wreck face of whatever is left. Hvarl himself is also pretty good in CC, his weapon wounds so many enemies with a +2.

 

Ran

[Purge the Daemon]

I will post my list from the other games where I think they worked:

 

LoW

Leman Russ

 

HQs:

Hvarl Red Blade

Speaker of the Dead

Speaker of the Dead

 

Troops:

10 Grey Slayers inside Rhinos

10 Grey Slayers inside Rhinos

15 Grey Slayers walking (10 of them were wearing combat shields)

15 Grey Slayers walking

 

Elite:

Deathsworn pack walking

 

Fast Attack

Primaris-Lightning Strike Fighter (Kraken Penetrator)

 

Heavy Support:

Legion Sicaran Battle Tank

 

One priest, Hvarl and Russ all march together.

 

The Deathsworn were accompanied by one priest.

 

A big blob of 15 Grey Slayers were HQ free because then they can get to CC fast. REAALLLY fast.

 

Testing wise - they felt strong. The only thing they couldn't take on was Lorgar massed super power awesome squad of Gal Vorbak. Russ alone with his squad is exactly what he is suppose to be - a missile. A killer. Even if his guys die, he can still wreck other armies because after dealing with the enemy HQ/Champion, he will wreck face of whatever is left. Hvarl himself is also pretty good in CC, his weapon wounds so many enemies with a +2.

 

Ran

Uhm no offense but does no one around you play with vidicators/medusas/phosphex I think the average ride the iron fire list would end the game by turn 2. Like no offense but you are just walking 50 power armour bodies at your opponent.

[Ranwulf]

 

I will post my list from the other games where I think they worked:

 

LoW

Leman Russ

 

HQs:

Hvarl Red Blade

Speaker of the Dead

Speaker of the Dead

 

Troops:

10 Grey Slayers inside Rhinos

10 Grey Slayers inside Rhinos

15 Grey Slayers walking (10 of them were wearing combat shields)

15 Grey Slayers walking

 

Elite:

Deathsworn pack walking

 

Fast Attack

Primaris-Lightning Strike Fighter (Kraken Penetrator)

 

Heavy Support:

Legion Sicaran Battle Tank

 

One priest, Hvarl and Russ all march together.

 

The Deathsworn were accompanied by one priest.

 

A big blob of 15 Grey Slayers were HQ free because then they can get to CC fast. REAALLLY fast.

 

Testing wise - they felt strong. The only thing they couldn't take on was Lorgar massed super power awesome squad of Gal Vorbak. Russ alone with his squad is exactly what he is suppose to be - a missile. A killer. Even if his guys die, he can still wreck other armies because after dealing with the enemy HQ/Champion, he will wreck face of whatever is left. Hvarl himself is also pretty good in CC, his weapon wounds so many enemies with a +2.

 

Ran

Uhm no offense but does no one around you play with vidicators/medusas/phosphex I think the average ride the iron fire list would end the game by turn 2. Like no offense but you are just walking 50 power armour bodies at your opponent.

 

I posted the last two games in here. Which is another amazing point about how we are making this lists - it's all based on meta and your gaming group. In general, what really made the footsloggers suffer was full flamers from termies, I didn't face vind and medusas because only the Night Lord player has it, and he preferers anything that can wreck armour because so far that is his greatest trouble. Only the IF player uses a lot of the artillery, and even then as he used the artillery on the Gal Vorbak - he killed NONE with 12 shots, he killed some marines at top of a bunker, and did however kill the rest of a 5 man raptor squad. There is also the terrain, the way they depoly, the way you decide to outflank or not, how you walk your army. 

 

Internet list can very well work, but most of us already learned that they don't always work against people that you play constantly, because each person builds their army in their way. In fact our meta is developing very much on the idea of Anti-armor, because that's what most people are worried about. Edit: My Word Bearer friend said to me that doing big blobs of armies never really got into his head, because he was so used to face armor only, but now he is considering. They couldn't deal with so many bodies in the table because they didn't have enough anti-infantry.

 

Ran

Edited March 1, 2017 by Ranwulf

[sturguard]

The problem is quad mortars with phosphex is too cheap- its not the actual vindicators.  80 pts each for 4 small blasts. People dont just take 1 mortar, they take 3, or two squads of 2- thats only 240-320 pts, which is nothing. At least with a vindicator you only take 4-5 hits. Often with phosphex (especially Iron Warriors) you take 15 hits. and you're rolling out of dangerous terrain. 

[Ranwulf]

The problem is quad mortars with phosphex is too cheap- its not the actual vindicators.  80 pts each for 4 small blasts. People dont just take 1 mortar, they take 3, or two squads of 2- thats only 240-320 pts, which is nothing. At least with a vindicator you only take 4-5 hits. Often with phosphex (especially Iron Warriors) you take 15 hits. and you're rolling out of dangerous terrain. 

Yup. He took 3 in one squad, and he even explained that it gets expensive if you buy all of the special ammo. But you still need good line of sight, you still needs a good rolling hand, your oppononets must not be targetting the mortars because they know how annoying they are. Also the game was still objective based. The Grey Slayers worked because as they advanced they could deny and secure objectives themselves, and there were too many bodies on the table to deal with.

 

Ran

[Brofist]

Honestly I'm coming to the same conclusion. It's really frustrating that I can't come up with a list that utilises the buffs from the RoW without using a loophole (because let's face it, terminators are probably the only infantry other than vets that are worth taking in serious numbers).

 

It just makes my heart sink when I look at all the strong and easy to create combos that White Scars, Dark Angels, Sons of Horus, Thousand Sons, etc. can do, and some of those legions don't even have their frickin' special units.

 

I'm getting more and more fed up with our rules. They just feel so frickin' weak compared to everyone elses because all our (poorly written and weak) buffs center around infantry (and JUST un-augmented infantry, 'cause f-u terminators).

 

I honestly have no clue how anyone in the FW rules team can make an honest comparison between Tsons and Wolves rulesets, they just don't compare.

 

And Russ is impossible to fit in a list, because he's a huge point-sink and all he feels like is a big beatstick and nothing more. magnus is a huge beatstick (better than Russ, 'cause Tsons) AND gives out all kinds of candy to his army. It makes him feel like a true general.

 

It's just a travesty that Russ needs the permission of Red-blade to Scout (and by extension, outflank).

I know you're upset, but it's a stretch to say your rules are weak because you can't stack an army with min-maxed terminators and vets. Tksons are poorly balanced for sure, but compared to other legions SW a solid option with some strong rules.

[Lord Blackwood]

Bulbafist you know I have a level of respect for you so please don't read this as me being belligerent for the sake of it.

 

But the restrictions in our army list are significant.

 

The compositional requirements consume points in a rather debilitating way.

 

What's worse is that one limiting factor compounds the other in that the extra HQs which we must take can't effectively join the mandatory units we also have to take as troops.

 

I do not think the list is unworkable. No. I don't think that. But I certainly feel like my fists offer me far more flexibility in list building.

 

I find that by the time I'm done ticking boxes with wolves I have very little left in the way of points for fun or interesting things.

 

I'm sure noghtlords feel similar constraints with things like terror assault.

 

I'm not going to not play the legion. But I do feel like it's rules are middling at best. Not great. Not awful but nothing to write home about with significant hurdles to get over in list construction.

 

With all due respect to you Ran

If you played me with a list like that I would likely table you by 3 or 4

 

In my meta infantry can't walk and walking assault units are just tasty means for stuff to get it's points back.

 

Not that it's a bad list it seems for where yer playing. Just I. Theory i would never leave my guys out there like that. Fast though they may be.

[Ranwulf]

What list would you bring to the table? What are the missions objectives? What kind of depoly was set up? How is the table terrain set up? Lots of variables and target priorities. It's easy to say on paper that "This would wreck this", but so far experience showed me otherwise. 

 

As far as I know, I'm one of the few to test the wolves, and by my experience with them,they felt strong but not overtly murderous. You can question my list sucks, but it worked, and I will keep trying them until I find a wall, then I will adapt.

 

Ran 

[Lord Blackwood]

My average lists include 2 imperial knights and a plethora of fast vehicles including a squad of vindicators and sometimes when going light on knights I'll run a typhon I would clear the vast majority of your infantry off the table within two rounds of shooting leaving you very little to work with.

 

Your list doesn't suck.

 

I would have no issue tearing apart the list and those in my gaming group would likely also do the same.

 

For point of argument. List two is a raven wing list with lots of jetbikers with acid bolts and a outriders half with plasma

 

Air support and so on.

 

 

Third list is 5 or six knight s

 

I wouldn't have an issue with the list you field. It that doesn't make it objectively bad.

[Ranwulf]

Aren't Imperial Knights LoW? How are you bringing so many of them onto the table?

 

Ran

[Lord Blackwood]

In questoris knight lists knightly ranks are used to place them into the force org chart

 

This works in their own army as well as in an allied detachment.

[Runefyre]

Bladewolf I'm curious to know how you'd rate the list I created above? If you were running a double-knight list.

[Baluc]

Ranulf plays mega battles keep that in mind.

 

Massed foot grey slayers are relying on high single die rolls to get around the board.

 

But, ignoring that it seems like there is no outside tge box thinking. A single unit of castallex, vorax or domitar would give that army nightmares. Of course so would a typhon since wolves aren't immune to moral.

 

As to restrictions. A flesh over steel restriction would have been more fluffy and consistent witg the core game than our grey slayer compulsory choice. And, left fan favourites like pride and armoured breakthrough available.

 

The RoWs heap on more model restrictions on top of what we already have, for honestly pretty garbage returns.

 

Of all 3 armies released it should have been wolves given model priority seeing as how we've been disallowed taking so many unit choices.

 

And all of that would be fine if this stupid hq tax wasn't also included. I don't want to play hero hammer but fw have insisted that I do with the most boring hqs possible. Its a :cuss first draft of an army.

[Lord Blackwood]

Bladewolf I'm curious to know how you'd rate the list I created above? If you were running a double-knight list.

I think that list would give a few of my builds trouble , even the double knight lists at 2500 would struggle a touch due to the usual limited anti air that I employ ,  the javelins make good hitters , and the chainfist termis may very well tear down a knight if I am not careful ,  I feel like it would be a much closer match for those reasons ,  against the full  armored breakthrough list as well I can forsee problems due to the air stuff  ( though i can think of places to save points to tweak that and the spartan becomes considerably less of a problem in that list)   Though mission wise killing the basic preds would be a good goal for your lesser units since without them only one knight is scoring , knock that knight out as well  and suddenly you just gotta play keep away (  I have lost games like that before. ) 

 

Ranulf plays mega battles keep that in mind.

 

This is assuming 2500  ~ 3000 points  which is the standard for the group I play in and for the pick up games we play of 30k at the store

( I say pick up but its mostly " yo you wanna get a game in this week ?   "   " Yea sure either  X or Y  day " and you just travel with your stuff on those days )  

I have been writing wolf lists  with 2 to 3 knights in this point range 

[Baluc]

So I have my list, or at least the list I'm going to be building. I would have preferred a more substantial 3rd infantry unit, but points being what they are...

 

Praetor

w/ Jetbike, Aether Rune Armour, Frost Claw, Powerfist, Iron Halo

Master of the Legion: The Bloodied Claws

 

Legion Centurion

Vigilator Consul

w/ Scout Armour

 

Legion Centurion

Praevian Consul

w/ Artificer Armour, Great Frost Blade, Boarding shield

4 Vorax Class Battle-Automata

w/ Frag Grenades

 

10 Grey Slayers

w/ Huscarl, Great Frost Blade

Rhino

 

10 Grey Slayers

w/ Huscarl, Great Frost Blade

Rhino

 

6 Recon Marines

w/ Scout Armour

Nuncio-Vox

 

Javelin Squadron

2x Javelin attack Speeders

w/ 2 Hks, and CML

 

Land Speeder Squadron

2x Land speeders

w/ Multi-Melta, and Graviton Gun

 

Land Speeder Squadron

2x Land speeders

w/ Multi-Melta, and Graviton Gun

 

Sicaran Battle Tank

w/ Lascannon Sponsons, and Dozer Blade

 

Whirlwind Scorpius

 

Sicaran Venator

 

LoW: Typhon Heavy Siege Tank

 

I'm considering:

 

Dropping the scorpius, Vigilator and recon marines for a Volkite Support Squad and a master of the signal. Since that would let me buff the venator's BS to 5 in the first few turns and have some heavy anti-infantry on my home objective as well. 

[Lord Blackwood]

I  feel like dropping the vigilator and recon marines is a good idea D:  but the list looks solidly constructed otherwise 

Im not familar with Vorax ?  Any reason to take them over Castellax ?  

Edited March 3, 2017 by Bladewolf

[Baluc]

I  feel like dropping the vigilator and recon marines is a good idea D:  but the list looks solidly constructed otherwise 

 

Im not familar with Vorax ?  Any reason to take them over Castellax ?  

 

Namely Scout, Ws4, I4, and significantly cheaper price per model. The 4 Vorax only get me 2 combat castallex. 

 

After the proposed changes I get.

 

Praetor

w/ Jetbike, Aether Rune Armour, Frost Claw, Powerfist, Iron Halo

Master of the Legion: The Bloodied Claws

 

Legion Centurion

Master of the Signal Consul

 

Legion Centurion

Praevian Consul

w/ Artificer Armour, Great Frost Blade, Boarding shield

4 Vorax Class Battle-Automata

w/ Frag Grenades

 

10 Grey Slayers

w/ Huscarl, Great Frost Blade

Rhino

 

10 Grey Slayers

w/ Huscarl, Great Frost Blade

Rhino

 

Legion support Squad

10x Marines

w/ Volkite Cavliver

 

Javelin Squadron

2x Javelin attack Speeders

w/ 2 Hks, and CML

 

Land Speeder Squadron

2x Land speeders

w/ Multi-Melta, and Graviton Gun

 

Land Speeder Squadron

2x Land speeders

w/ Multi-Melta, and Graviton Gun

 

Sicaran Battle Tank

w/ Lascannon Sponsons, and Dozer Blade

 

Sicaran Venator

 

LoW: Typhon Heavy Siege Tank

 

I think it actually nets me a stronger first shooting phase, as I get the orbital bombardment/BS5 on the necessary unit. 

[Lord Blackwood]

looks solid ,  i guess I value the castellax shooting too much , but I think  it works just find ,  lots of good choices 

[Runefyre]

As Bladewolf said, list looks solid. What points level am I looking at though?

[Baluc]

Sorry its 2500 always forgetting some small detail.

[Runefyre]

Cool. In that case your list is definitely solid. Lots of unit saturation and firepower.

 

Grey Slayers can overpower pretty anyone else's basic troops choices, and you shoot the big bad units to death.

[sturguard]

Unfortunately besides the 270 pts of mandatory Grey Slayers it looks nothing like what you would imagine a SW 30k to look like when you read the novels and fluff- and Im not picking on Baluc- I know in fact he is one of the good ones trying to make something out of nothing.

 

The irony is besides the Thunderwolf lists of 40k, probably the best SW list is the Iron Wolves where you take as many landspeeders as you can in the list- which I had a hard time swallowing because SW have never been known for their land speeders over any other legion, and lo and behold here we have them again.

 

Again Baluc I hope you know I am not poking fun of you, merely the state of affairs of the SW Inferno list.