Runefyre Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I'm starting to like the idea of running Russ "solo" in a dreadclaw. By solo I mean with his Wolfkin and a speaker. Here's a tentative 2500 point list I threw together with a Russ-bomb in mind. I think it's also probably the most efficient way to run varagyr. 2500 points (Bloodied Claw Rite of War) Centurion (RF, GFB) Speaker of the Dead Wolfkin of Russ Varagyr squad (5x power fists, 5x frost claws, goes in a dreadclaw) Varagyr squad (5x power fists, 5x frost claws, goes in a dreadclaw) Veteran squad (missile launcher, rhino DT) Veteran squad (missile launcher, rhino DT) (3x) dreadclaws Malcador (demolisher cannon, autocannon sponsons) Sicaran Venator Leman Russ Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 A combat shield does not increase survivability of Grey Slayers. Where is this coming from? Its a 6+ save when your power armour is negated by shooting... which is worse than cover, and a 5++ in combat against power weapons which most units that Grey Slayers can defeat in assault won't have.You can't put in on the models with your ccw to hedge against higher 'I' weapons that ignore your save. They are just another Trap/Rule of Cool upgrade. I'm starting to like the idea of running Russ "solo" in a dreadclaw. By solo I mean with his Wolfkin and a speaker. Here's a tentative 2500 point list I threw together with a Russ-bomb in mind. I think it's also probably the most efficient way to run varagyr. 2500 points (Bloodied Claw Rite of War) Centurion (RF, GFB) Speaker of the Dead Wolfkin of Russ Varagyr squad (5x power fists, 5x frost claws, goes in a dreadclaw) Varagyr squad (5x power fists, 5x frost claws, goes in a dreadclaw) Veteran squad (missile launcher, rhino DT) Veteran squad (missile launcher, rhino DT) (3x) dreadclaws Malcador (demolisher cannon, autocannon sponsons) Sicaran Venator Leman Russ Thoughts? A regular SIcaran is suffecient in Bloodied Claw over the Malcador. there is also no reason to have TWO units of Varangyr, or 4 troop units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Drekkan Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 A combat shield does not increase survivability of Grey Slayers. Where is this coming from? Its a 6+ save when your power armour is negated by shooting... which is worse than cover, and a 5++ in combat against power weapons which most units that Grey Slayers can defeat in assault won't have.You can't put in on the models with your ccw to hedge against higher 'I' weapons that ignore your save. They are just another Trap/Rule of Cool upgrade. I'm starting to like the idea of running Russ "solo" in a dreadclaw. By solo I mean with his Wolfkin and a speaker. Here's a tentative 2500 point list I threw together with a Russ-bomb in mind. I think it's also probably the most efficient way to run varagyr. 2500 points (Bloodied Claw Rite of War) Centurion (RF, GFB) Speaker of the Dead Wolfkin of Russ Varagyr squad (5x power fists, 5x frost claws, goes in a dreadclaw) Varagyr squad (5x power fists, 5x frost claws, goes in a dreadclaw) Veteran squad (missile launcher, rhino DT) Veteran squad (missile launcher, rhino DT) (3x) dreadclaws Malcador (demolisher cannon, autocannon sponsons) Sicaran Venator Leman Russ Thoughts? A regular SIcaran is suffecient in Bloodied Claw over the Malcador. there is also no reason to have TWO units of Varangyr, or 4 troop units. Exactly, shieds are just rule of cool and I like better that way. Can we get on something else please ? 1ncarnadine 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sturguard Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) Okay, another try this time Primarchs Chosen to minimize the extra HQ (Russ isnt a LoW) is this correct, please check over my thoughts here. Russ (HQ 1) Wolfkin (HQ 2) Anvillus Centurion (HQ 3)- now I can upgrade him to a Vigilator correct and give 1 squad scout- this might be a sound move. So 2x Vets in Rhinos- they outflank and can support Russ turn 2 (how to equip?) 2x Javelins with CML/MM (obviously anti tank and provide speed and they are cheap) Lightning with Kraken Skyhunters with meltas outflanking Sicaran? Thoughts? So I need some hard hitters to arrive on turn 2. Russ goes down solo with the Wolfkin, they he needs friends to bail him out turn 2. In what form do they arrive? The issue I am having with the SW list is this- the lists that might do well have no unique SW units in them, and don't remotely match up to the fluff of what the SW legion is in the fluff. Yes, there were companies of Knights, I am sure they had lots of tanks etc- but that's not the mental image I get from them when reading the books. You want space marines and currently it looks like the best SW lists will be those that actually take as minimal SW units as possible and just take generic good 30k units. So at the end of the day, you could just take a generic list and paint them blue with no Inferno and they would be just as good. We really should have had a scout unit, I dont understand why 1K Sons got a scout unit when in both 30k and 40k there are plenty of stories written about our scouts. I'm starting to like the idea of running Russ "solo" in a dreadclaw. By solo I mean with his Wolfkin and a speaker. Here's a tentative 2500 point list I threw together with a Russ-bomb in mind. I think it's also probably the most efficient way to run varagyr. 2500 points (Bloodied Claw Rite of War) Centurion (RF, GFB) Speaker of the Dead Wolfkin of Russ Varagyr squad (5x power fists, 5x frost claws, goes in a dreadclaw) Varagyr squad (5x power fists, 5x frost claws, goes in a dreadclaw) Veteran squad (missile launcher, rhino DT) Veteran squad (missile launcher, rhino DT) (3x) dreadclaws Malcador (demolisher cannon, autocannon sponsons) Sicaran Venator Leman Russ Thoughts? Bringing you around am I? I thought you couldnt use the Anvillus in the Bloodied Claw, so I guess I could go that route, but it means another 100 pts in HQ. Has anyone thought about Assault Units? Dont need a transport and can deep strike in and they do get furious charge and ws 5 on the charge? Edited March 7, 2017 by sturguard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) Okay, another try this time Primarchs Chosen to minimize the extra HQ (Russ isnt a LoW) is this correct, please check over my thoughts here. Russ (HQ 1) Wolfkin (HQ 2) Anvillus Centurion (HQ 3)- now I can upgrade him to a Vigilator correct and give 1 squad scout- this might be a sound move. So 2x Vets in Rhinos- they outflank and can support Russ turn 2 (how to equip?) 2x Javelins with CML/MM (obviously anti tank and provide speed and they are cheap) Lightning with Kraken Skyhunters with meltas outflanking Sicaran? Thoughts? So I need some hard hitters to arrive on turn 2. Russ goes down solo with the Wolfkin, they he needs friends to bail him out turn 2. In what form do they arrive? The issue I am having with the SW list is this- the lists that might do well have no unique SW units in them, and don't remotely match up to the fluff of what the SW legion is in the fluff. Yes, there were companies of Knights, I am sure they had lots of tanks etc- but that's not the mental image I get from them when reading the books. You want space marines and currently it looks like the best SW lists will be those that actually take as minimal SW units as possible and just take generic good 30k units. So at the end of the day, you could just take a generic list and paint them blue with no Inferno and they would be just as good. We really should have had a scout unit, I dont understand why 1K Sons got a scout unit when in both 30k and 40k there are plenty of stories written about our scouts. I'm starting to like the idea of running Russ "solo" in a dreadclaw. By solo I mean with his Wolfkin and a speaker. Here's a tentative 2500 point list I threw together with a Russ-bomb in mind. I think it's also probably the most efficient way to run varagyr. 2500 points (Bloodied Claw Rite of War) Centurion (RF, GFB) Speaker of the Dead Wolfkin of Russ Varagyr squad (5x power fists, 5x frost claws, goes in a dreadclaw) Varagyr squad (5x power fists, 5x frost claws, goes in a dreadclaw) Veteran squad (missile launcher, rhino DT) Veteran squad (missile launcher, rhino DT) (3x) dreadclaws Malcador (demolisher cannon, autocannon sponsons) Sicaran Venator Leman Russ Thoughts? Bringing you around am I? I thought you couldnt use the Anvillus in the Bloodied Claw, so I guess I could go that route, but it means another 100 pts in HQ. Has anyone thought about Assault Units? Dont need a transport and can deep strike in and they do get furious charge and ws 5 on the charge? In your list you can't upgrade to a vigilantor as you always need a Centurion non consul or Praetor. In fact due to the wording of this rule primarchs chosen is not legal as you can't take Russ as a compulsory. Also I'd be inclined to agree are special units are just not very good they cost way to much. They also don't really add much like all our units take power weapons if we want why would I bring more power weapon marines that can't score (though I guess both don't get characters) Edited March 7, 2017 by Purge the Daemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) Vlka Fenryka Hvarl Red-Blade 210 The Wolf-kin of Russ 100 Speaker of the Dead: Artificer armour; Great Frost blade; Melta bombs 130 3 Space Marine Chosen: 2 × Power weapon; Single lightning claw; 3 × Combat shield 140 Hunters of Kattegat (10 Veteran Space Marines): Veteran Sergeant (Artificer armour; Power weapon); Warrior's Mettle; 9 Veteran Space Marines; 3 × Power weapon 210 Hunters of Kattegat (10 Veteran Space Marines): Veteran Sergeant (Artificer armour; Power weapon); Warrior's Mettle; 9 Veteran Space Marines; 3 × Power weapon 210 5 Varagyr Terminators: 5 × Second Frost blade (axe, claw or sword); 3 × Power fist; 2 × Chainfist 305 Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought: Two twin-linked lascannons 185 Legion Storm Eagle Assault Gunship: Hull-mounted twin-linked multi-melta; Four wing-mounted Hellstrike missiles 245 Legion Spartan Assault Tank: Dozer blade 310 Leman Russ 455 2,500 points I think this list takes full advantage of Pale Spear by having a fast army with fliers arriving on turn two and redundancy in all departments: - 3 scoring units: 2x vets and Varagyr - 2 denying units: Wolf kin and command squad - Deathstar: Russ, command squad and speaker of the Dead with wolf kin for extra survival. Remember now Russ has hit and run, feel no pain and preferred enemy infantry. All in a Spartan. - Second beat stick unit: Hvarl and the Varagyr with again preferred enemy infantry, able to select ap3 at initiative or ap2 - 2 do it all units in the veterans that despite not having transports guarantee a turn two charge with warriors Mettle and scout extra move. - Decent anti tank power in 2.5k: Spartan, Storm Eagle, Contemptor Mortis and Varagyr in CC - Good anti air: Contemptor Mortis and Storm Eagle Two cons: - Vets can be blasted in turn one but with scout and their great movement you should be able to find cover - Someone will argue you don't have the three compulsory HQ choices. If so unequip the Speaker of the Dead, drop 1 vet in each squad and include a Caster of Runes in the deathstar while you stare into his eyes All in all we'll find negatives but no list is perfect. I feel that while HS Legion limit is restrictive it doesn't matter that much under 3k and over that the Varagyr can take dedicated Spartans and you can beef up on a squad of Vindicators or Malcador. Edited March 7, 2017 by Grieux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Primarch's Chosen won't work, since you need a Praetor or a Centurion as your compulsory HQ, which Primarch's chosen directly contradicts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sturguard Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Are the vets on foot? Whats in the spartan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Sorry was still writing up. Yes vets on foot and Spartan with deathstar. Check all comments I added for thoughts in the list, pros and cons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sturguard Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 So my thought on it (and why I havent pursued the Spartan idea)- so you have a deathstar in the Spartan, the flier is off the board- I assume with the terminators? So whats left, vets and contemptor. Let's say you go second. The enemy will use his anti heavy tank weaponry against the spartan and the rest of his army is free to shoot at the vets and contemptor. That probably results in all that being dead. You dont really have any guns that can cause any damage to him Next turn you have the Spartan and the flier comes on. Now there is only 2 targets left in your army, any anti tank he has will go at the Spartan, anything else that can go at the flier will do so. The rest of his army moves to counter the deathstar. Assuming the spartan isnt destroyed, you move to assault- now you arent going to assault any unit your opponent doesnt want you to, as he has had 2 turns to move his units around, then the resulting shooting phase is going to inflict alot of casualties on you and you dont have much on the ground to really take it. Your army just really has no significant shooting and a deathstar can only take 1 objective and the unit really isnt that fast - it gets +1 to run rolls. I am not a fan of the Storm Eagle as its weapons just arent impressive to me, at least the Lightning gets one job done well- killing tanks, the Storm Eagle is more of an anti infantry, which is what most of your SW units do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 So my thought on it (and why I havent pursued the Spartan idea)- so you have a deathstar in the Spartan, the flier is off the board- I assume with the terminators? So whats left, vets and contemptor. Let's say you go second. The enemy will use his anti heavy tank weaponry against the spartan and the rest of his army is free to shoot at the vets and contemptor. That probably results in all that being dead. You dont really have any guns that can cause any damage to him Next turn you have the Spartan and the flier comes on. Now there is only 2 targets left in your army, any anti tank he has will go at the Spartan, anything else that can go at the flier will do so. The rest of his army moves to counter the deathstar. Assuming the spartan isnt destroyed, you move to assault- now you arent going to assault any unit your opponent doesnt want you to, as he has had 2 turns to move his units around, then the resulting shooting phase is going to inflict alot of casualties on you and you dont have much on the ground to really take it. Your army just really has no significant shooting and a deathstar can only take 1 objective and the unit really isnt that fast - it gets +1 to run rolls. I am not a fan of the Storm Eagle as its weapons just arent impressive to me, at least the Lightning gets one job done well- killing tanks, the Storm Eagle is more of an anti infantry, which is what most of your SW units do. I'd have to agree here Pale Hunters specifically is not suited to trying to use a deathstar simply because you have no means to move one up. If it's a non terminator Spartan then you have no gunsure as it rakes the only heavy support. This ROW requires for sure maxing fast attack because without it you can kill things but you also need a lot in the board but you don't really get that unless you just want to field units in rhinos. It's also really bad the higher points you get once you hit about 2500-3000 you just don't have enough guns to win a game in your list. It's the same reason terror assault also drops off hardcore heavy support is possibly the best slot in the age of Darkness, not having access really hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhali Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Hey guys, my friend just got me into miniatures in general and The Horus Heresy in particular. I read Prospero Burns and have decided that the Space Wolves sound like an awesome legion to play. After reading a bunch of wiki entries about Space Wolves, I was wondering where I find the Heresy rules for Bjorn? His back story makes me want to field him on the table top in a grudge match against my friends Thousand Sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Even if I go second I have scout to reposition all to avoid direct Los in my enemy turn one. Present me a list that can erase two vet squads, kill a Spartan and a mortis in one turn (all without line of sight), and then can actually be playable against other armies (since I'm assuming a competitive setting and not just someone tailoring a list to specifically counter mine) and I might swap armies :) Do a couple lists and let's fake play hypotheticals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Hey guys, my friend just got me into miniatures in general and The Horus Heresy in particular. I read Prospero Burns and have decided that the Space Wolves sound like an awesome legion to play. After reading a bunch of wiki entries about Space Wolves, I was wondering where I find the Heresy rules for Bjorn? His back story makes me want to field him on the table top in a grudge match against my friends Thousand Sons. Bjorn is currently a sergeant as of inferno so he has no rules. It's possible we might see him later on at Yarant. But this won't be for a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I agree Baluc, that a pair of sicarans provides more versatility than a Malcador. They can also help against fliers if need be. The varagyr are for theme and can run through tank parking lots or infantry hordes I face alot. 2500 points Bloodied Claw (with Russ) v2.0 Centurion (GFB, RF) Speaker of the Dead (AA, GFB) Wolfkin of Russ Varagyr squad (4x PFs, 1x chainfist 5x FCs) Varagyr squad (4x PFs, 1x chainfist 5x FCs) Veteran squad (missile launcher, AA, power weapon, rhino DT) (3x) dreadclaws (2x) sicaran battle tanks (las-cannon sponsons) Sicaran venator Leman Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I agree Baluc, that a pair of sicarans provides more versatility than a Malcador. They can also help against fliers if need be. The varagyr are for theme and can run through tank parking lots or infantry hordes I face alot. 2500 points Bloodied Claw (with Russ) v2.0 Centurion (GFB, RF) Speaker of the Dead (AA, GFB) Wolfkin of Russ Varagyr squad (4x PFs, 1x chainfist 5x FCs) Varagyr squad (4x PFs, 1x chainfist 5x FCs) Veteran squad (missile launcher, AA, power weapon, rhino DT) (3x) dreadclaws (2x) sicaran battle tanks (las-cannon sponsons) Sicaran venator Leman Russ Few things in the Russ Dreadclaw I'd defintely find a way to stick a melta bomb on a character he struggles to kill the heavier dreadnoughts. Also while I understand the varagyr they cost 95 more points per a squad then 5 terminators 4 pf 1 chain fist. That's 190 extra points you would have and you really don't miss out on much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defl0 Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) Okay first things first. Grey Slayers cost the same as marines and we trade out boltguns for ccw so we are essentially despoilers and that's great if you wanted that. But as your only Troops they are incredibly restrictive. Pale Hunters gives hit and run to only your power armoured Troops it's also not even hit and run. It's 2d6 unlike the white scars 3d6 one, and since wolves actually don't have go specialist units that benefit from it it's not exactly super useful. Hit and run is really strong on deathstars in fact it's broken as hell there but our deathstars have no access to it. And being barred from the best units available to legions doesn't seem like a strong rite of war. Like space wolves look tons of good until you realise that everything is loaded with restrictions that make trying to.combine rules or use synergy next to worthless. There is no generalship that makes the difference here. Look grey slayers are tacs with vet wargear options, basically. No, you don't get things like rending combi flamers, but face it, other legions play that game better than you anyway. And the rest of the basic troop choices would stuck for wolves. Instead you get a flexible troop choice that can be insanely hitty fit the points or can be as cheap as a basic TAC squads. As for hit and run, you are missing the point. Being able to leave hth let's you shoot at your opponent on your turn and removes shooting from your opponent. You literally get to play both sides of the board. It is the MOST tactical rule in the game. And all your rules and units benefit from charging! Finally, yes there are restrictions. But there is a lot of synergy. You have rad grenade combos. You have hit and run hammer anvil combos, you have out flank with pluses to reserves and bonuses to side deployment combos. You have scouting combos. You have preferred enemy bubble. This codex literally has layers and layers of rules that stack and all fit even within the restrictions. My only gripe is how hth focused the legion is... I would have like Long fangs to even it out, but overall the wolf rules are very good. Edited March 7, 2017 by defl0 Brofist and svane jotunsbane 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purge the Daemon Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) Okay first things first. Grey Slayers cost the same as marines and we trade out boltguns for ccw so we are essentially despoilers and that's great if you wanted that. But as your only Troops they are incredibly restrictive. Pale Hunters gives hit and run to only your power armoured Troops it's also not even hit and run. It's 2d6 unlike the white scars 3d6 one, and since wolves actually don't have go specialist units that benefit from it it's not exactly super useful. Hit and run is really strong on deathstars in fact it's broken as hell there but our deathstars have no access to it. And being barred from the best units available to legions doesn't seem like a strong rite of war. Like space wolves look tons of good until you realise that everything is loaded with restrictions that make trying to.combine rules or use synergy next to worthless. There is no generalship that makes the difference here. Look grey slayers are tacs with vet wargear options, basically. No, you don't get things like rending combi flamers, but face it, other legions play that game better than you anyway. And the rest of the basic troop choices would stuck for wolves. Instead you get a flexible troop choice that can be insanely hitty fit the points or can be as cheap as a basic TAC squads. As for hit and run, you are missing the point. Being able to leave hth let's you shoot at your opponent on your turn and removes shooting from your opponent. You literally get to play both sides of the board. It is the MOST tactical rule in the game. And all your rules and units benefit from charging! Finally, yes there are restrictions. But there is a lot of synergy. You have rad grenade combos. You have hit and run hammer anvil combos, you have out flank with pluses to reserves and bonuses to side deployment combos. You have scouting combos. You have preferred enemy bubble. This codex literally has layers and layers of rules that stack and all fit even within the restrictions. My only gripe is how hth focused the legion is... I would have like Long fangs to even it out, but overall the wolf rules are very good. You've litterally mentioned rules above that don't stack... If you run hvarl in Pale Hunters you aren't benefiting form the hit and run from what is likely a mini combat deathstar or even a big one. The prefered enemy bubble is a Warlord trait so if you take Russ you lose it. Rad grenades the same ones available to all legions as in only forge lords. Your only other option is Deathsworn a unit that can't be made a deathstar at all since characters can't join and has no invulnerable save. Everyone else also had outflank with marksmen Veterans possibly the most common unit in the game. Veterans are litterally the gold standard for Troops because they can actually do something with their points vs all targets (this includes mechanicum and custodes who Grey Slayers do very poorly against) Also in terms of hit and run allowing you to leave in your turn great and you are going to shoot them with all that artillery you brought or those Medusas and vindicators the quad mortars?? In your 1 heavy support slot with a ban on all artillery type units. The biggest issue is this. We are playing in an edition of a game were shooting is by far the better means of killing things, it has more effective time more target options and harder to avoid. This right of War really tries to focus on close combat and reserves, reserves means we have less shooting on the board. So the big problem is we are essentially playing the wrong type of game. Armies that don't shoot and don't have board presence don't do very well. (Mechanicum, solar Auxilla, iron fire are very good for a reason) Edited March 7, 2017 by Purge the Daemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sturguard Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Even if I go second I have scout to reposition all to avoid direct Los in my enemy turn one. Present me a list that can erase two vet squads, kill a Spartan and a mortis in one turn (all without line of sight), and then can actually be playable against other armies (since I'm assuming a competitive setting and not just someone tailoring a list to specifically counter mine) and I might swap armies Do a couple lists and let's fake play hypotheticals! Its not a Spartan and a Mortis and 2 vet squads- its 20 powered armored marines and a mortis. Most likely you arent going to lose your Spartan turn 1, but turn 2 is a possibility. And the scout move is just 6 inches- its not like you can move from one end of the board to the other- most likely unless you re position behind a building if a unit can see you in one spot and you move 6 inches, they still see you. So all the opponents anti infantry will shoot are your 2 vet squads and if the spartan is ignored then all of its anti tank will shoot at the contemptor (that can see it)- contemptors arent that hard to kill. Heck a few squads of quad mortars would erase the vet squads or whirlwind scorpius (both options are dirt cheap and still leave plenty of points for other units), even javelins with the CML's will take out marines. Also, its not like they have to kill the entire squad, if your vet squad is reduced by 6-7 marines, the unit is essentially just looking to hide to maybe claim an objective- it is essentially out of the fight (contributing kills). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Even if I go second I have scout to reposition all to avoid direct Los in my enemy turn one. Present me a list that can erase two vet squads, kill a Spartan and a mortis in one turn (all without line of sight), and then can actually be playable against other armies (since I'm assuming a competitive setting and not just someone tailoring a list to specifically counter mine) and I might swap armies Do a couple lists and let's fake play hypotheticals! Iron Fire... But, any army list with a Drop pod, Rapiers and a sicaran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 I agree Baluc, that a pair of sicarans provides more versatility than a Malcador. They can also help against fliers if need be. The varagyr are for theme and can run through tank parking lots or infantry hordes I face alot. 2500 points Bloodied Claw (with Russ) v2.0 Centurion (GFB, RF) Speaker of the Dead (AA, GFB) Wolfkin of Russ Varagyr squad (4x PFs, 1x chainfist 5x FCs) Varagyr squad (4x PFs, 1x chainfist 5x FCs) Veteran squad (missile launcher, AA, power weapon, rhino DT) (3x) dreadclaws (2x) sicaran battle tanks (las-cannon sponsons) Sicaran venator Leman Russ Few things in the Russ Dreadclaw I'd defintely find a way to stick a melta bomb on a character he struggles to kill the heavier dreadnoughts. Also while I understand the varagyr they cost 95 more points per a squad then 5 terminators 4 pf 1 chain fist. That's 190 extra points you would have and you really don't miss out on much. I already came to that conclusion in my head.....but gosh it just doesn't have the same "cool" feel to it...... Why why why did FW have to screw up the legion specific unit I was looking forward to the most....out elite terminators..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) That's fair but by the same rule I can eliminate any massive infantry killers like a scorpion with two quad lascannons and two twinLinked lascannons, plus if I understand correctly scout gives you another love phase which I could use to move and run, no? That's give me 7+1d6. If necessary I can play it safe on my end for turn one and then charge in turn two with the Eagle. You think I'd be better off though dropping the Wolf kin, changing the Spartan for a phobos and adding in rhinos with multi melta for the vets and maybe a speeder? Edited March 7, 2017 by Grieux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sturguard Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) I could be wrong but I dont think so. You setup your models. Opponent sets up his models. Now you take your 6 inch scout move if you are infantry or 12 inch scout move if you are a vehicle. Now I am just basing my conversation on the Iron Warriors gunline I play against and the Alpha Legion list I was using for a time. As the whole army infiltrates after you are done setting up, I can get all the firing angles I want and most likely go first, and the quad lascannons arent going to do much to artillery as most times they are going to put that in cover, so you might peel a wound or two off 1 quad mortar if the spartan even has LOS. That's just my point, yeah the deathstar when it gets into combat will do fine, but at the expense of that one unit you really have no shooting- it should be easy for a good opponent to isolate and destroy your other supporting elements because the spartan wants to rush up the board right? So its a win for me if I can force you to disembark back in your deployment and keep you from pushing forward. I think for what you want to do the LR is cheaper. I have tried to make Pale Hunter work, the problem is when I start looking at units that take advantage of the rules, they dont play well. So we need shooting- unfortunately you cant take artillery, its cheap and would help the list alot We need to get up and personal fast- drop pods are the best way, but we cant use them Hit and Run is great- wait the units that would benefit most are deathstars and terminators, but terminators cant use it, so you are stuck with a giant expensive deathstar- it would have been better if you had a bunch of 5 man terminator squads that could hit and run. In the end what you get out of Pale Hunter is +1 to reserve rolls and sacrifice alot of units for that 100 pt Damocles rhino effect. When I look through the list of units that really can take advantage of outflank they are few and far between, especially those that have the SW and Outflank rule. I think it comes down to the jetbikes and scout bikes (and vets). Now if our terminators had scout in my opinion that would have made a difference or if the terminators could hit and run, or if the death sworn had an option for an invul save- there are plenty of just minor things that could have made our list pretty good- Im not looking for top tier here, just rules that can work together. Edited March 7, 2017 by sturguard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalwolf Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 As an alternative if I don't have turn one I can outflank both vets squads :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runefyre Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Keep in mind thanks to the latest WH40k FAQ scout doesn't happen until after sieze the initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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