[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[sturguard]

Cool. In that case your list is definitely solid. Lots of unit saturation and firepower.

 

Grey Slayers can overpower pretty anyone else's basic troops choices, and you shoot the big bad units to death.

 

I dont know if I would use the word over power- so Sw are going to get what 9 more attacks because of their pistol/cc weapon over a tac marine. So with those 9 more attacks, 6 hit, 3 wound and 1 additional failed save over a basic tac squad on tac squad fight (obviously this is discounting the vet serg on vet serg), of course the SW could lose a model or two on the charge with 20 rapid fire overwatch shots too.

 

Unless I have done my math wrong- which is a possibility.

[Lord Blackwood]

Part of the draw of legion lists is that they can take the shape of whatever you need them to. 

I mean my Imperial Fists Armored breakthrough list has no direct parallel in the fluff either but its a feasible representation of something that could have existed at the time. 

We only have a few instances where we are shown the Vith legion operating in the field a few of those are Tra  ,  we get to see a Space wolves Superheavy Tank company !  in  Leman Russ Greatwolf headed up by an Ironpriest in an absolutely hilarious scene. 

Realistically a great company could operate with a bunch of speeders. 

Remember the wording from Prospero Burns ? 

The Vith do whatever it takes to win , whatever it takes , Bjorn straight up took a guardian spear to the side so he could tear his enemies throat out. 

Army composition that doesnt use X units or X rite of War shouldn't disqualify someone or even dillute the fact that they are a list that can represent that legion. 

Also  its a tactica thread ( i know you aint picking on anyone and I hope my tone didint come across as combative or anything )   Its a tactically sound list thats a good thing. 

[Runefyre]

 

Cool. In that case your list is definitely solid. Lots of unit saturation and firepower.

 

Grey Slayers can overpower pretty anyone else's basic troops choices, and you shoot the big bad units to death.

 

I dont know if I would use the word over power- so Sw are going to get what 9 more attacks because of their pistol/cc weapon over a tac marine. So with those 9 more attacks, 6 hit, 3 wound and 1 additional failed save over a basic tac squad on tac squad fight (obviously this is discounting the vet serg on vet serg), of course the SW could lose a model or two on the charge with 20 rapid fire overwatch shots too.

 

Unless I have done my math wrong- which is a possibility.

 

Are you factoring in +1WS, +1Str (furious charge), and the Great Frost Blade? All those things should equal a distinct edge against opposing tactical marines.

 

Plus Baluc didn't pay for them, but in all my lists I always pay for at least 2 power weapons per 10 Grey Slayers. Furious Charge power swords are quite good at mincing opposing power armour.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Grey Slayers are basically Despoilers on crack.

[Runefyre]

They'd be even better if we could purchase Warrior's Mettle for our HQ choices. Then we could put speakers/apothecaries freely in our grey slayer units.

[Nova_chron]

I feel like that would fix alot of the feeling of being forced into mediocre choices

[Baluc]

I treat grey slayers like they tacs. Try to spend as little on them as possible and hope they can take an objective.

 

I may still add a power weapon or two to the unit, but as it is I'd much rather let my heavy assault units do the fighting. Like the Praetor or the Vorax. And the Great Frost blade with furious charge should do 2 wounds consitently so I'm happy with that when it comes to fighting vets and tacs. Without the +1 ws on the charge I probably just wouldn't be playing SW at all and have done Custodes.

 

The lack of SW units is disappointing I guess... but how many legions actually use their legion units besides 2W terminators?

And, again... I don't need combat units with middling assault applications, I have to take grey slayers.

 

The Land Raider should have really been updated to carry 12 models or 5 bulky models. But, oh well.

 

I'm considering putting up a plog. Most of my stuff is like have done but it be fun to document finishing 2.5k in 4 weeks.

[Baluc]

They'd be even better if we could purchase Warrior's Mettle for our HQ choices. Then we could put speakers/apothecaries freely in our grey slayer units.

It would still be a false choice I feel. The idea would be giving up character support for a transport. Which even at the humble rhino a much better choice.

 

Unless they plan for us all to field two Spartans. In which case WE are a significantly better army over all.

[Runefyre]

The full implementation of warriors mettle would include the option for any sw unit with the LASR to purchase it at 5ppm. 15ppm for independent characters and automata.

 

And I would argue that wolvea could definitely compete with world eaters. Power armour doesnt care about free chainaxes. But we get to take as many power swords as we like. Plus the huscal can kill the sergeant before he can swing with an ap2 weapon. Add in a speaker and the eaters only have their 5+++ while we enjoy 3+\5+++.

[Baluc]

Well... massed +1 S for free is a pretty potent free rule. And arguably "better" than the option to purchase power weapons.

 

Things to keep in mind when it comes to the huscarl the WE sgt gets +1 ws in a challenge.

 

Between their LA:WE, RoW, and Apothecaries WE have a lot of rules in assault.

[Purge the Daemon]

Well... massed +1 S for free is a pretty potent free rule. And arguably "better" than the option to purchase power weapons.

 

Things to keep in mind when it comes to the huscarl the WE sgt gets +1 ws in a challenge.

 

Between their LA:WE, RoW, and Apothecaries WE have a lot of rules in assault.

And if talk about inducti... Grey slayers will be wiped for way less points. S6 hatred rage FNP does not bode well and they are simply better multipurpose unit to.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Grey Slayers are super Despoilers. I will be running mine in land raiders.

[Runefyre]

But most of the WE's rules revolve around quantity of attacks, not quality (apart from str6).

 

The key is not to let them charge you. Grey Slayers on the charge with a speaker and power weapons mixed in (and the mandatory GFB and AA on the Huscarl) I think have a great chance of sweeping WE tacticals. There's also no chance of the Wolves getting swept unless your insanely unlucky and the speaker dies.

 

Though my preference would be just to pop the spartan and unload plasma vets into them and watch them impotently flail their chainaxes at me. Then kill the stragglers in a one-sided combat.

[Purge the Daemon]

But most of the WE's rules revolve around quantity of attacks, not quality (apart from str6).

 

The key is not to let them charge you. Grey Slayers on the charge with a speaker and power weapons mixed in (and the mandatory GFB and AA on the Huscarl) I think have a great chance of sweeping WE tacticals. There's also no chance of the Wolves getting swept unless your insanely unlucky and the speaker dies.

 

Though my preference would be just to pop the spartan and unload plasma vets into them and watch them impotently flail their chainaxes at me. Then kill the stragglers in a one-sided combat.

While maybe a Speaker and armed Grey Slayers win over the charge you also cost easily a 100 points more I'd hope you would win.

[Runefyre]

The other bonus is Grey Slayers can score, inductii WE's can't.

[Jackalwolf]

So I've decided the best way for me to use the Pale Spear is to build a force like the Night of the Wolf, an army that can outmanouver everyone on foot with their extra run and charge distances, hit and run, etc.

 

Leading that will be the Wolf King himself, but my question is which should be his retinue heading into battle? He has to have at least with him a power armored marine and he'll gain Hit and Run which is intensely powerful to avoid anyone bogging him down. The options for his retinue are:

 

- Wolf-Kin of Russ: Nice ablative wounds plus 2+ look out sir plus in late game they can detach and deny an objective with their speed.

- Command Squad: Just the basic 3 artificer armor marines to grant Hit and Run, have another scoring unit if they survive until the end of the game, more ablative wounds and ability to play with their chosen warrior rule to accept/issue challenges. Also it could look pretty awesome from a modeling perspective.

- Speaker of the Dead in Aether rune armor: On top of Hit and Run, grants feel no pain and preferred enemy infantry

- Caster of Runes: Just added it cause it's cool and Russ would have one in his council for sure.

- 5 man veteran unit: Maybe the less fun of choices but more cost efficient? I'd rather go with the 3 command squad to give more modeling variety.

 

Which are your advice gents?

[Nova_chron]

My only comment on the wolf kings is that they do not form a unit with russ they are totally independent just keep them within 6" for LOS funsies but I like the idea of perhaps a small command squad and speaker

[Jackalwolf]

Thanks mate, I already did buy all the pieces to start converting a command squad with artificer armor.

[Charlo]

Other great thing about a command squad is you can give them all combat shields, like the wooden ones in the artwork :D

[Guest Drekkan]

Speaking of shields, is it worthy to spam it on grey slayers ?

[sturguard]

I would say no- all the grey slayer options are just a trap, yes they look good on paper until all of a sudden that 125 pt Grey Slayer squad is now 220 pts and you could have taken much better equipped Vets for the same points.

 

I think probably the most cost effective squad would be

10 GS

1 Powerfist (just to help with dreads)

Serg- AA, GA and if he can take them meltabombs.

 

That should be 160 pts and you have the ability to damage a dread/armor, and get a few kills from power armor or terminator armor, even then though it borders on too expensive. Given you can get a Javelin for 65 pts or so with CML and MM with longer range its a difficult choice. In the grand scheme of things GS even given all their options have no real increased built in survivability, if you want 10 men in a rhino so should be treated just like tac squads, all they are there for is object camping.

 

When you see all their options the first thing that comes to mind is how many marines you can kill with power weapons and fists and adding combat shields and bolters, but then you remember they die just like all other power armor and you just give up more points than they are worth.

[Purge the Daemon]

I would say no- all the grey slayer options are just a trap, yes they look good on paper until all of a sudden that 125 pt Grey Slayer squad is now 220 pts and you could have taken much better equipped Vets for the same points.

 

I think probably the most cost effective squad would be

10 GS

1 Powerfist (just to help with dreads)

Serg- AA, GA and if he can take them meltabombs.

 

That should be 160 pts and you have the ability to damage a dread/armor, and get a few kills from power armor or terminator armor, even then though it borders on too expensive. Given you can get a Javelin for 65 pts or so with CML and MM with longer range its a difficult choice. In the grand scheme of things GS even given all their options have no real increased built in survivability, if you want 10 men in a rhino so should be treated just like tac squads, all they are there for is object camping.

 

When you see all their options the first thing that comes to mind is how many marines you can kill with power weapons and fists and adding combat shields and bolters, but then you remember they die just like all other power armor and you just give up more points than they are worth.

I'd agree here I'd maybe Cobsider bolters simply because it's the same as giving a tactics squad extra ccw in price but far more valuable. Otherwise I feel like the points spent make them hugely expensive.

 

I like AA armour power fist (though gfb is good but getting more expensive) melta bomb and vexilla can be considered (bolters are probably the only lyrics other upgrade I'd look at)

 

I honestly 5hink if you have Russ I'd never take Grey Slayers as I simply believe marksmen Veterans dof everything better and let you scout more other units. Also they take a better benefit from using outflank with our LA. Also marksmen vets might actually kill something, and get more cqc attacks anyways.

[Guest Drekkan]

 

I would say no- all the grey slayer options are just a trap, yes they look good on paper until all of a sudden that 125 pt Grey Slayer squad is now 220 pts and you could have taken much better equipped Vets for the same points.

 

I think probably the most cost effective squad would be

10 GS

1 Powerfist (just to help with dreads)

Serg- AA, GA and if he can take them meltabombs.

 

That should be 160 pts and you have the ability to damage a dread/armor, and get a few kills from power armor or terminator armor, even then though it borders on too expensive. Given you can get a Javelin for 65 pts or so with CML and MM with longer range its a difficult choice. In the grand scheme of things GS even given all their options have no real increased built in survivability, if you want 10 men in a rhino so should be treated just like tac squads, all they are there for is object camping.

 

When you see all their options the first thing that comes to mind is how many marines you can kill with power weapons and fists and adding combat shields and bolters, but then you remember they die just like all other power armor and you just give up more points than they are worth.

I'd agree here I'd maybe Cobsider bolters simply because it's the same as giving a tactics squad extra ccw in price but far more valuable. Otherwise I feel like the points spent make them hugely expensive.

 

I like AA armour power fist (though gfb is good but getting more expensive) melta bomb and vexilla can be considered (bolters are probably the only lyrics other upgrade I'd look at)

 

I honestly 5hink if you have Russ I'd never take Grey Slayers as I simply believe marksmen Veterans dof everything better and let you scout more other units. Also they take a better benefit from using outflank with our LA. Also marksmen vets might actually kill something, and get more cqc attacks anyways.

 

 

@ sturguard : true, I do agree, still I don't see specialists as competitives as grey slayers.

 

@ Purge the deamon : Veterans troops granted by Russ must have warrior's mettle.

[Charlo]

For an alternative view if I may...

 

Tacticals? Yes - keep them cheap. They are there to just bolter things and maybe capture an objective. I tried to list hammer a lot of DG lists in the day always insisting on a Scythe, Rad nades, Extra CCWs etc and really, all I was doing is making a meh unit a bit more diverse and good at fighting it's equivalent - which, it would probably never do.

 

Grey Slayers on the other hand? You are getting the equivalent of other Legion's elite choices in your troops - no matter what rite you play. This is powerful. It means instead of a Tax you get a solid unit that can be invested in and counted upon.

 

Yes - your tooled up Grey Slayers are now 220points... But that is 220pts that you got to spend without any sort of troops tax. Plus they are a total steal at 15 points each with a bolter and combat shield. You have a tactical marine with an invuln (arguably better than FNP in most cases where your armour save is ignored) and more flexibility, backed up by specialization.

 

OH and you get special weapons and power weapons.

 

Honestly the only real tragedy is the lack of Land Raider Dedicated Transports... But these could be unlocked with the correct Rite of War :)

[Jackalwolf]

 

 

 

@ sturguard : true, I do agree, still I don't see specialists as competitives as grey slayers.

 

@ Purge the deamon : Veterans troops granted by Russ must have warrior's mettle.

 

 

They can select a different veteran tactic. Literal wording: "These represent the Wolf Guard Huscarls of Russ' own Great Company and may have the Warrior's Mettle special rule (see page 231) instead of selecting one of the listed Veteran tactics as usual."

 

Key word being may.