[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Purge the Daemon]

@ sturguard : true, I do agree, still I don't see specialists as competitives as grey slayers.

 

@ Purge the deamon : Veterans troops granted by Russ must have warrior's mettle.

I've got the rule open in front of me and I'm fairly certain it says may select warriors mettle instead of veterans Tactical and not must.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Purge the Daemon

[sturguard]

Charlo,

See I dont think they compete with our army elite troops. They only have ws5 on the charge, which you cant guarantee they are going to have as your opponent (if he is decent) is trying not to let them charge and will consider their abilities in his tactics. Against shooting they are tactical marines, they are going to die just as fast. If you want them in a rhino, they cant have a Speaker, and if you want them on foot- well I dont believe they work on foot in any competitive environment even with the Speaker's FnP, just too make templates out there which are common in lists would delete them.

 

Now at the above 165, on the charge they can take care of a tactical squad, they can hold up a dread/contemptor for a round or two and put a few wounds on them potentially, and against an elite unit they might kill a model or two- that is better than a plain tac squad which can only do anything vs infantry units so I see the extra 25 pts (the tac squad will most likely have AA on the serg) as an acceptable trade off.

[Purge the Daemon]

For an alternative view if I may...

 

Tacticals? Yes - keep them cheap. They are there to just bolter things and maybe capture an objective. I tried to list hammer a lot of DG lists in the day always insisting on a Scythe, Rad nades, Extra CCWs etc and really, all I was doing is making a meh unit a bit more diverse and good at fighting it's equivalent - which, it would probably never do.

 

Grey Slayers on the other hand? You are getting the equivalent of other Legion's elite choices in your troops - no matter what rite you play. This is powerful. It means instead of a Tax you get a solid unit that can be invested in and counted upon.

 

Yes - your tooled up Grey Slayers are now 220points... But that is 220pts that you got to spend without any sort of troops tax. Plus they are a total steal at 15 points each with a bolter and combat shield. You have a tactical marine with an invuln (arguably better than FNP in most cases where your armour save is ignored) and more flexibility, backed up by specialization.

 

OH and you get special weapons and power weapons.

 

Honestly the only real tragedy is the lack of Land Raider Dedicated Transports... But these could be unlocked with the correct Rite of War :)

You can't actually take a bolter and combat shield it's either bolter/combat shield/power weapon but not a combination. So it's either cheap/shooty/tooled up combat but very expensive/or some survivability vs ap3 but 0% more killy (rather have an apoth)

[sturguard]

Can anyone check to see the exact wording on Pale Hunter (Restrictions) and match it to the Kharybdis to see if it works?

 

The Anvillus has the word drop pod in it- the Kharybdis does not. Legion Kharybdis assault claw. I do not think it has the Immobile Rule on it like drop pods does it because it is a flier? So, would it pass the Pale Hunter test?

[Purge the Daemon]

Can anyone check to see the exact wording on Pale Hunter (Restrictions) and match it to the Kharybdis to see if it works?

 

The Anvillus has the word drop pod in it- the Kharybdis does not. Legion Kharybdis assault claw. I do not think it has the Immobile Rule on it like drop pods does it because it is a flier? So, would it pass the Pale Hunter test?

It has drop pod assault as a special rule so I'm fairly certain that fails it.

[Guest Drekkan]

@ Charlo :  15 points each with a bolter and combat shield is an absolute steal (in my meta at least), therefore veterans/assault/breachers seems outclassed.

 

@ Grieux : Well spotted, my mystake then, seems tempting now.

 

I'll play my calth box first, and decide later how to expand it, when faq and minis hit the board.

[Purge the Daemon]

@ Charlo : 15 points each with a bolter and combat shield is an absolute steal (in my meta at least), therefore veterans/assault/breachers seems outclassed.

 

@ Grieux : Well spotted, my mystake then, seems tempting now.

 

I'll play my calth box first, and decide later how to expand it, when faq and minis hit the board.

The only issue here again is you only get 1/3 options while you can mix and match in a squad each individual model either gets shield, power weapon or bolter

[Charlo]

Ah yeah, didn't see that... But, in honesty - I think it'll really add some personality to the squad with everyone having mixed wargear, very space wolves.

 

Plus you can give a fist a shield, which is cool.

[Guest Drekkan]

 

@ Charlo : 15 points each with a bolter and combat shield is an absolute steal (in my meta at least), therefore veterans/assault/breachers seems outclassed.

 

@ Grieux : Well spotted, my mystake then, seems tempting now.

 

I'll play my calth box first, and decide later how to expand it, when faq and minis hit the board.

The only issue here again is you only get 1/3 options while you can mix and match in a squad each individual model either gets shield, power weapon or bolter

 

 

Thanks, I got it ;) It is just calth kitbashed with sw bits, and all valid as it was calculated according to LACAL before Inferno.

[Baluc]

Grey Slayers are not the equivalent of Legion specific Elites. And, even if they were, that isn't not a very high bar. 

 

If you are playing with Russ, take vets, the ability to do many things determined when you know what the opposition is putting down their army.

 

I really don't understand the significant and rampant over estimation of Grey Slayers is about. Why would I take Grey slayers in Land Raider over Legion terminators in a LR as an assault unit, Assuming I have the option? 

 

Grey Slayers are literally "fine" if you don't overspend and they their profile do their talking for them. As soon as you start adding nonsense like additional power weapons, combi weapons, combat shields, the price is inflated and it doesn't really change the sorts of units they are going to be capable of defeating in assault. While siphoning away your army's ability to shoot.

[Guest Drekkan]

Grey Slayers are not the equivalent of Legion specific Elites. And, even if they were, that isn't not a very high bar. 

 

If you are playing with Russ, take vets, the ability to do many things determined when you know what the opposition is putting down their army.

 

I really don't understand the significant and rampant over estimation of Grey Slayers is about. Why would I take Grey slayers in Land Raider over Legion terminators in a LR as an assault unit, Assuming I have the option? 

 

Grey Slayers are literally "fine" if you don't overspend and they their profile do their talking for them. As soon as you start adding nonsense like additional power weapons, combi weapons, combat shields, the price is inflated and it doesn't really change the sorts of units they are going to be capable of defeating in assault. While siphoning away your army's ability to shoot.

 

They can soak up like breachers, be choppy as veterans, shooty as tactical support and nearly as fast as assault.

 

Even if it just one option per model, it can be optimised to be quiet strong in a beer and bretzels game to me.

[sturguard]

The link to the scanned pages of the book were deleted from page 2 of this thread. Can someone check the exact wording of Pale hunter and the restrictions?

[Purge the Daemon]

The link to the scanned pages of the book were deleted from page 2 of this thread. Can someone check the exact wording of Pale hunter and the restrictions?

Not artillery no fortifications no drop pods of any kind

 

Only 1 heavy support as part of the foc

[Runefyre]

Grey Slayers are not the equivalent of Legion specific Elites. And, even if they were, that isn't not a very high bar. 

 

If you are playing with Russ, take vets, the ability to do many things determined when you know what the opposition is putting down their army.

 

I really don't understand the significant and rampant over estimation of Grey Slayers is about. Why would I take Grey slayers in Land Raider over Legion terminators in a LR as an assault unit, Assuming I have the option? 

 

Grey Slayers are literally "fine" if you don't overspend and they their profile do their talking for them. As soon as you start adding nonsense like additional power weapons, combi weapons, combat shields, the price is inflated and it doesn't really change the sorts of units they are going to be capable of defeating in assault. While siphoning away your army's ability to shoot.

Because who's going to tell me not to

[sturguard]

Purge are those the exact words, doesnt it say something about immobile as well?

 

So how would people view that. The Kharybdis does not have the word drop pod it in, it is an assault claw that uses the drop pod assault mechanic. However, does it have to be a drop pod to use the drop pod assault mechanic? Pale hunter does not say you cant use models with the drop pod assault mechanic and it also takes your one Heavy Support slot, so maybe that is indeed what they anticipated (otherwise maybe the would have allowed no heavy support). What are peoples thoughts?

 

Me, I would say since it isnt a drop pod it is fine to use.

[Purge the Daemon]

Purge are those the exact words, doesnt it say something about immobile as well?

 

So how would people view that. The Kharybdis does not have the word drop pod it in, it is an assault claw that uses the drop pod assault mechanic. However, does it have to be a drop pod to use the drop pod assault mechanic? Pale hunter does not say you cant use models with the drop pod assault mechanic and it also takes your one Heavy Support slot, so maybe that is indeed what they anticipated (otherwise maybe the would have allowed no heavy support). What are peoples thoughts?

 

Me, I would say since it isnt a drop pod it is fine to use.

I left out the starting words of may not include but yeah.

 

Exact wording is

 

Detachments using this rite of war may not take artillery or fortification type units or drop pods of any kind.

Detachments using this rite of war may only take a single heavy support choice as part of the force organization.

 

 

What's really weird is its not artillery "type" units. Which is different then Bloodied Claw which just says units. Maybe this makes no difference or possibly it's a ban on the artillery squadron (Medusas basilisk whirlwinds)

 

I mean the slot could very well be intended for a fire raptor which is probbably what I'll be doing with it. Or the always classic solo Sicaran Venator.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Purge the Daemon

[Guest Drekkan]

Spamming these questions to forge world might give us a faq faster.

 

Tbh, I ain't going to buid anything more before clarification by faq.

 

The rest is just musing and themes for thought for me tho.

[Baluc]

 

Grey Slayers are not the equivalent of Legion specific Elites. And, even if they were, that isn't not a very high bar. 

 

If you are playing with Russ, take vets, the ability to do many things determined when you know what the opposition is putting down their army.

 

I really don't understand the significant and rampant over estimation of Grey Slayers is about. Why would I take Grey slayers in Land Raider over Legion terminators in a LR as an assault unit, Assuming I have the option? 

 

Grey Slayers are literally "fine" if you don't overspend and they their profile do their talking for them. As soon as you start adding nonsense like additional power weapons, combi weapons, combat shields, the price is inflated and it doesn't really change the sorts of units they are going to be capable of defeating in assault. While siphoning away your army's ability to shoot.

 

They can soak up like breachers, be choppy as veterans, shooty as tactical support and nearly as fast as assault.

 

Even if it just one option per model, it can be optimised to be quiet strong in a beer and bretzels game to me.

 

 

What are you talking about... It is defintely is one upgrade per model

 

Soak up like Breachers? Breachers have a squad wide 3+ 6+/5++ and defensive grenades, and re-roll armour saves against blasts

 

They can only have 1 per 5 combi-weapons so they aren't shooting better than anything... 

 

Strong is a relative term, not a contextual term. If you ban non-troop infantry squads sure you could debate if Grey Slayers are strong.

 

They are a fine troop choice, but are definitely an example of diminishing returns. 

[sturguard]

If Deathsworn pack were Str 5 it would have gone a long way towards making them worth their points. Just the fact that they could have instant killed t5 Custodes would have been worth it over say a terminator or a grey slayer.

 

So does anyone agree/disagree that the Kharybdis could be used with Pale Hunter? Again, no drop pod in the name, nothing immobile about it.

[Purge the Daemon]

If Deathsworn pack were Str 5 it would have gone a long way towards making them worth their points. Just the fact that they could have instant killed t5 Custodes would have been worth it over say a terminator or a grey slayer.

 

So does anyone agree/disagree that the Kharybdis could be used with Pale Hunter? Again, no drop pod in the name, nothing immobile about it.

We actually have a way that would be great to make them s5 replace power axe with frost axe and now they can instant kill t4.

[Guest Drekkan]

 

 

Grey Slayers are not the equivalent of Legion specific Elites. And, even if they were, that isn't not a very high bar. 

 

If you are playing with Russ, take vets, the ability to do many things determined when you know what the opposition is putting down their army.

 

I really don't understand the significant and rampant over estimation of Grey Slayers is about. Why would I take Grey slayers in Land Raider over Legion terminators in a LR as an assault unit, Assuming I have the option? 

 

Grey Slayers are literally "fine" if you don't overspend and they their profile do their talking for them. As soon as you start adding nonsense like additional power weapons, combi weapons, combat shields, the price is inflated and it doesn't really change the sorts of units they are going to be capable of defeating in assault. While siphoning away your army's ability to shoot.

 

They can soak up like breachers, be choppy as veterans, shooty as tactical support and nearly as fast as assault.

 

Even if it just one option per model, it can be optimised to be quiet strong in a beer and bretzels game to me.

 

 

What are you talking about... It is defintely is one upgrade per model

 

Soak up like Breachers? Breachers have a squad wide 3+ 6+/5++ and defensive grenades, and re-roll armour saves against blasts

 

They can only have 1 per 5 combi-weapons so they aren't shooting better than anything... 

 

Strong is a relative term, not a contextual term. If you ban non-troop infantry squads sure you could debate if Grey Slayers are strong.

 

They are a fine troop choice, but are definitely an example of diminishing returns. 

 

 

Let's say they are fine flexible troops.

 

Zone mortallis might see them shine.

[Purge the Daemon]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Grey Slayers are not the equivalent of Legion specific Elites. And, even if they were, that isn't not a very high bar.

 

If you are playing with Russ, take vets, the ability to do many things determined when you know what the opposition is putting down their army.

 

I really don't understand the significant and rampant over estimation of Grey Slayers is about. Why would I take Grey slayers in Land Raider over Legion terminators in a LR as an assault unit, Assuming I have the option?

 

Grey Slayers are literally "fine" if you don't overspend and they their profile do their talking for them. As soon as you start adding nonsense like additional power weapons, combi weapons, combat shields, the price is inflated and it doesn't really change the sorts of units they are going to be capable of defeating in assault. While siphoning away your army's ability to shoot.

They can soak up like breachers, be choppy as veterans, shooty as tactical support and nearly as fast as assault.

 

Even if it just one option per model, it can be optimised to be quiet strong in a beer and bretzels game to me.

What are you talking about... It is defintely is one upgrade per model

 

Soak up like Breachers? Breachers have a squad wide 3+ 6+/5++ and defensive grenades, and re-roll armour saves against blasts

 

They can only have 1 per 5 combi-weapons so they aren't shooting better than anything...

 

Strong is a relative term, not a contextual term. If you ban non-troop infantry squads sure you could debate if Grey Slayers are strong.

 

They are a fine troop choice, but are definitely an example of diminishing returns.

Let's say they are fine flexible troops.

 

Zone mortallis might see them shine.

I just don't think there is a reason to even compare them to other Troops primarily because you have no other choice unless you take Russ. Now if you take Russ Varagyr fill a very different roll so no comparison there. Making it if you take Russ should you go Veterans or Grey Slayers and really no other debate.

[Dantay VI]

Employed by many Legions as their primary ship-to-ship assault craft, the Kharybdis is a monstrous drop pod capable of carrying large assault forces through the void and mounting significant firepower to blast a path through defending small craft.

As a fully operational dropship, Kharybdis assault claws also serve as orbit-to-surface transports, a role that allows them to use the firepower of their storm launchers and melta cutters to scour clean their chosen landing zone before disembarking their deadly cargo.

Some aggressive commanders employ the Kharybdis as an effective tank hunter, ramming enemy armour in daring low-altitude attack runs.

[sturguard]

Thats just the fluff writing, as bad as FW writes rules, they may not even be aware they wrote that. As far as unit entry you dont have anything that says Drop Pod.

 

If Deathsworn pack were Str 5 it would have gone a long way towards making them worth their points. Just the fact that they could have instant killed t5 Custodes would have been worth it over say a terminator or a grey slayer.

So does anyone agree/disagree that the Kharybdis could be used with Pale Hunter? Again, no drop pod in the name, nothing immobile about it.

We actually have a way that would be great to make them s5 replace power axe with frost axe and now they can instant kill t4.

 

Yeah but they dont instant kill Custodes with t5.

[Nova_chron]

I'm going to be firmly in a different camp than most on grey slayers I ran 2 squads on Saturday 10 guys 5 shields 1pfist 2 axes in a rhino huscarl had AA and GFB both squads while not game winning did exactly what I needed them to one stopped a World Eater praetor/Surlak/ spartan full of chain-axe men from hitting my partners mechanicum bots in our back line held for one turn to let me charge Russ his Varangyr and dogs into the unit and wiped it picking up warlord and erasing the last scoring unit threatening our objective.

 

My second unit butchered it's way through a warrior unit then held up wraiths for 2 turns to again save the stompy robbits.(was a wolves and mech versus world eaters and necrons 11000 point game)

 

So I believe they do have a use in lists I'm just trying to find that magic balance for my style as I don't always want to put the wolf king on the table.

 

Sorry for the rant I just felt it may help people see another way to use the unit.