8th Edition Rumours

[Hathis]

Feels like GW do not like conversions believe all my tanks are invalid and a few other units as well...sigh.

other than that is looking very promising and hopefully my fears will be at rest when the real codex arrives.

[Archaeinox]

I know a 1 fails but if you're a Rubric and roll a 2+ in the fight phase to hit and have Prescience up, its a hit... but a 5+ is a 6 for the purposes of DttFE? 

[Lord Asvaldir]

I want Chosen to be good, are they really still crap ?

 

I mean, standard Space marine is 13 points per model, Chosen are 16.

For 3 points you get +1 Attack, +1 Ld (don't forget Ld, it means something now).

 

And now Power sword, or every close combat weapon are so cheap. 1 chosen with Power sword is 20 points.

 5 chosen with 5 powers sword are 100 points (while 5 Space marine without special gear are 65 points).

 

Can't be that bad ? (Yeah i really wanna use my palatine blade models). 

 

I don't think they are crap. They keep all  their decent options, can now assault out of rhinos and get cheap power weapons. What's not to like. 

[Lord Abaia]

I know a 1 fails but if you're a Rubric and roll a 2+ in the fight phase to hit and have Prescience up, its a hit... but a 5+ is a 6 for the purposes of DttFE?

I believe so. Prescience is phrased so that you add 1 to to hit rolls instead of modifying your BS and WS. DttFE says it is triggered on a 6+. The + implies to me that a 7 or higher is possible. The only way to achieve that is to add to your dice roll just like what Prescience says it does.

[Guest uk_crow]

Everyone's had a bit of time to digest the rules now, what do you think are strong choices for an Iron Warriors army?

 

Starting from scratch regarding getting back in the game and miniatures so welcome to any and all suggestions. I was thinking a core of maybe a Lord in TDA, sorcerer (warptime) in TDA, a squad of terminators, 2 10 man squads of CSM in rhinos?

 

Or would it be better to wait till the actual codex drops before I get stuck in?

[DreamIsCollapsing]

 

I want Chosen to be good, are they really still crap ?

 

I mean, standard Space marine is 13 points per model, Chosen are 16.

For 3 points you get +1 Attack, +1 Ld (don't forget Ld, it means something now).

 

And now Power sword, or every close combat weapon are so cheap. 1 chosen with Power sword is 20 points.

 5 chosen with 5 powers sword are 100 points (while 5 Space marine without special gear are 65 points).

 

Can't be that bad ? (Yeah i really wanna use my palatine blade models). 

 

I don't think they are crap. They keep all  their decent options, can now assault out of rhinos and get cheap power weapons. What's not to like. 

 

 

Yep, i'm thinking of taking about 8 Chosen with 5 power sword and 2 special weapon (dunno wich one) in a Rhino with a standard Chaos Lord. 

What's your opinion on the best special weapon for a power sword chosen squad ? Melta ? Flamer ? Plasma ? 

 

This and a 10 raptor squad + 5 Termi should be great for close and personnal slaanesh hug. 

 

Starting from scratch regarding getting back in the game and miniatures so welcome to any and all suggestions. I was thinking a core of maybe a Lord in TDA, sorcerer (warptime) in TDA, a squad of terminators, 2 10 man squads of CSM in rhinos?

 

I'm not sure Rhino is worth it now for standard ranged CSM. I mean, now it cose 72 points. So 144 points just to transport regular CSM ?

They can't shoot while in rhino. 

Now ruins and other builind don't slow down infantery !

You can shoot with that heavy bolter/Autocannon/Rocket launcher while you move. 

 

So now your CSM squad isnt as slow as V7, and not as useless as in V7 before she reach mid table. 

 

One rhino is 4,2 Raptor (almost a squad without wargear), and they are M12" as well. Maybee it's a better alternative to rush objectives ? 

 

I'm kind of suspicious for Character in TDA now. What's your intention with them ? Because pop up a squad of Termi + Chaos Lord + Sorcerer right in front of your opponent is tempting.  But you could easily get surrounded (so direct hit on your character). 

 

Did you give a thought about Sorcerer in TDA + Obliterators ? Prescience on Assault 2 F9 Ap-2 2Dmg seems great (it also mean you can overwatch on 5+ or mouving 4+D6 with advance and shooting at normal CT. 

[Blackheart1223]

 

I know a 1 fails but if you're a Rubric and roll a 2+ in the fight phase to hit and have Prescience up, its a hit... but a 5+ is a 6 for the purposes of DttFE?

I believe so. Prescience is phrased so that you add 1 to to hit rolls instead of modifying your BS and WS. DttFE says it is triggered on a 6+. The + implies to me that a 7 or higher is possible. The only way to achieve that is to add to your dice roll just like what Prescience says it does.

One of the Nurgle Daemon powers triggers double damage on a 7+ to wound, so this makes sense.

[Guest uk_crow]

 

Starting from scratch regarding getting back in the game and miniatures so welcome to any and all suggestions. I was thinking a core of maybe a Lord in TDA, sorcerer (warptime) in TDA, a squad of terminators, 2 10 man squads of CSM in rhinos?

 

I'm not sure Rhino is worth it now for standard ranged CSM. I mean, now it cose 72 points. So 144 points just to transport regular CSM ?

They can't shoot while in rhino. 

Now ruins and other builind don't slow down infantery !

You can shoot with that heavy bolter/Autocannon/Rocket launcher while you move. 

 

So now your CSM squad isnt as slow as V7, and not as useless as in V7 before she reach mid table. 

 

One rhino is 4,2 Raptor (almost a squad without wargear), and they are M12" as well. Maybee it's a better alternative to rush objectives ? 

 

I'm kind of suspicious for Character in TDA now. What's your intention with them ? Because pop up a squad of Termi + Chaos Lord + Sorcerer right in front of your opponent is tempting.  But you could easily get surrounded (so direct hit on your character). 

 

Did you give a thought about Sorcerer in TDA + Obliterators ? Prescience on Assault 2 F9 Ap-2 2Dmg seems great (it also mean you can overwatch on 5+ or mouving 4+D6 with advance and shooting at normal CT.

The thought about the rhinos mounted squads was just to act as objectives grabbers, but can any units capture objectives now? Also they'd be able to rush up and support the deepstriking elements.

 

The characters in TDA was more rule of cool as I love the idea of deepstriking terminators bringing the pain. Would a jump pack lord with raptors and sorcerer in TDA with obliterators be better?

 

Regarding fire support are havocs now an inferior choice to a predator? Also considering a vindicator as they are fluffy as hell for iron warriors and love the look of them.

[Brother Aiwass]

I never liked oblits as a default IW choice. I like more the meatgrinder :)

 

In my mind, a couple squads of zerkers/possessed (modeled with power axes instead of mutations), terminators, basic CSM and havocs supported by daemon engines. But that's just me :P

 

*Rolls for decimation*

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Everyone's had a bit of time to digest the rules now, what do you think are strong choices for an Iron Warriors army?

 

Starting from scratch regarding getting back in the game and miniatures so welcome to any and all suggestions. I was thinking a core of maybe a Lord in TDA, sorcerer (warptime) in TDA, a squad of terminators, 2 10 man squads of CSM in rhinos?

 

Or would it be better to wait till the actual codex drops before I get stuck in?

 

Pretty much up to yourself.  What do you enjoy gaming wise?

 

- You could go Chaos Marine heavy, with Cultist as fodder & Havocs supporting

- Go Daemonic with Obliterators, combat Obliterator, Forge & Maulerfiend, Heldrake, Helbrutes, have them led by a Warpsmith

- Terminator company maybe with Chosen support?  Like Forrix company from Storm of Iron, which where the more Veterans.

- Again more troop heavy, go sort of Kroeger company from Storm of Iron

- Tank heavy, Rhino mounted troops, Vindicator, Predator support.

​Also rememeber, Forge World will have the Chaos book up for advance order this weekend as well.

 

I've made a quick list for myself yesterday.  Just taken my 1750pts list I took to Warhammer World in March from the Campaign weekend.  Just adding few extra Chaos Marines to get my two squads back to 10 models each, a Rhino for my Havocs, third Obliterators & a fifth Terminator.  That came o 2300pts under the new rule/index book, well I've still got 26pts that I'm not sure what I will spend on.

 

I'm stay with my Rhinos with my Chaos Marine squads, just I prefer gaming with mech armies.  Same with having my Chaos Knight in the list as I like the conversion I done & it will be nice to see him get past turn 2 with out been blow up now!!!

 

I've went with the Spearhead detachment for the heavy support core chose.  I'm also going to try out the detachment where it Elites for my Terminator force, have them supported by Obliterators.

 

I think I'm going to make a over all list with my current models as I like changing my list from game to game & events I attend.  Also I'm wanting to bring my Daemon Prince, Warsmith Abhorred Riddick back, as I've not use him in games (beside boons) for a good while.

[Sception]

 

 

Yep, i'm thinking of taking about 8 Chosen with 5 power sword and 2 special weapon (dunno wich one) in a Rhino with a standard Chaos Lord. 

What's your opinion on the best special weapon for a power sword chosen squad ? Melta ? Flamer ? Plasma ? 

 

That is not a legal squad.  One too many weapon upgrades.  Up to 4 chosen can take a special weapon, melee weapon, or pair claws.  Then one may take a special or heavy.  Then the champion can take champion weapons.  So you could have 5 power swords, including the champion, and one special weapon, or you could have 4 power swords and two.

 

Chosen are certainly better than they were, between being able to assault out of rhinos and being cheaper, particularly melee builds with power weapons which are much cheaper than they were before.  However, they've lost their BP/BG/CS equipment set (despite the fact that the models are clearly armed as such), and they have a lot of competition from other units, particularly possessed, berzerkers, raptors, and warp talons.

 

But the comparison that's really killing them right now is Fallen - essentially the same unit, but a whole two points cheaper per model for no bloody reason.  Frankly, that has to be a mistake, but it's one that I doubt we'll see fixed within the next year.

 

In the mean time, if you do run chosen, I'd run them as counts-as Fallen, a price point that feels more appropriate for them anyway, since it gives you more of a reason to field them in place of the other aforementioned alternatives.

[bozo69pd]

 

 

 

Yep, i'm thinking of taking about 8 Chosen with 5 power sword and 2 special weapon (dunno wich one) in a Rhino with a standard Chaos Lord. 

What's your opinion on the best special weapon for a power sword chosen squad ? Melta ? Flamer ? Plasma ? 

 

That is not a legal squad.  One too many weapon upgrades.  Up to 4 chosen can take a special weapon, melee weapon, or pair claws.  Then one may take a special or heavy.  Then the champion can take champion weapons.  So you could have 5 power swords, including the champion, and one special weapon, or you could have 4 power swords and two.

 

Chosen are certainly better than they were, between being able to assault out of rhinos and being cheaper, particularly melee builds with power weapons which are much cheaper than they were before.  However, they've lost their BP/BG/CS equipment set (despite the fact that the models are clearly armed as such), and they have a lot of competition from other units, particularly possessed, berzerkers, raptors, and warp talons.

 

But the comparison that's really killing them right now is Fallen - essentially the same unit, but a whole two points cheaper per model for no bloody reason.  Frankly, that has to be a mistake, but it's one that I doubt we'll see fixed within the next year.

 

In the mean time, if you do run chosen, I'd run them as counts-as Fallen, a price point that feels more appropriate for them anyway, since it gives you more of a reason to field them in place of the other aforementioned alternatives.

 

That's good to hear for my Dark Vengeance Fallen army!

[Excessus]

Don't forget Chosen swap their bolters for the upgrades now, but I still think that's a mistake...same with CSM/Havoc champions...

[foamy248]

So, just getting this straight... a khorne berzerker can be equipped with a chain axe AND a chain sword. This means that over one assault phase, a single berzerker gets 4 strength 6 attacks, and 2 strength 5 ones (given that RAW a chainsword gives a flat extra attack).... Meaning that a squad of 4 + a sergeant equipped like so gives 22 s6 attacks + 10 s5 ones? Am I right in saying this?

[Sception]

It's not clear yet to my knowledge whether the weapons that grant extra attacks require you to make at least one normal attack with that weapon, but otherwise, yeah, as far as I can tell that's how it works.

[Raven1]

It's not clear yet to my knowledge whether the weapons that grant extra attacks require you to make at least one normal attack with that weapon, but otherwise, yeah, as far as I can tell that's how it works.

I find it fairly clear. If a model has more then 1 attack so A2 and more then one weapon the owning player can choose which attacks are made with which weapon. A Berzerkers as in this example if he had a chainaxe and bolt pistol would make both attacks with a chainaxe resolved at S6 AP -1

 

A Berzerkers with a chainswords and bolt pistol would resolve 2 attacks S5 AP 0 and "Each time the bearer fights he may make on additional attack with this weapon" granting a 3rd attack for each fight.

 

A Berzerker with A2 and a chainaxe and chainswords could make two attacks with the chainsword and 0 with chainaxe, or he could do two attacks with the chainaxe and 0 with the chainswords since it isn't used the extra effect doesnt occur.

 

A Berzerker gets 2 attacks and can attack twice.

Per activation 1 S6 AP -1 & 1+1 S5 AP 0

Champion gets 3 attacks

Per activation 2 S6 AP -1 & 1+1 S5 AP 0

 

So Abaddon if he makes 6 attacks with the Talon of Horus he doesn't get D6 extra attacks since the demon weapon isn't used and conversly 6 attacks with his demon weapon aren't resolved at X2 strength since the Talon of Horus isn't used.

[Khornestar]

Not sure, seems as if you get a free chainsword attack regardless of how many attacks you make with it vs. the chainaxe, but only time will tell the real answer.

[Lukash_]

Friendly observation:

 

Fabius Bile's enhancement now applies to any Chaos infantry unit. Possessed with S6, D3+1 attacks, or T5 seem pretty nice.

[Brother Aiwass]

 

It's not clear yet to my knowledge whether the weapons that grant extra attacks require you to make at least one normal attack with that weapon, but otherwise, yeah, as far as I can tell that's how it works.

I find it fairly clear. If a model has more then 1 attack so A2 and more then one weapon the owning player can choose which attacks are made with which weapon. A Berzerkers as in this example if he had a chainaxe and bolt pistol would make both attacks with a chainaxe resolved at S6 AP -1

 

A Berzerkers with a chainswords and bolt pistol would resolve 2 attacks S5 AP 0 and "Each time the bearer fights he may make on additional attack with this weapon" granting a 3rd attack for each fight.

 

A Berzerker with A2 and a chainaxe and chainswords could make two attacks with the chainsword and 0 with chainaxe, or he could do two attacks with the chainaxe and 0 with the chainswords since it isn't used the extra effect doesnt occur.

 

A Berzerker gets 2 attacks and can attack twice.

Per activation 1 S6 AP -1 & 1+1 S5 AP 0

Champion gets 3 attacks

Per activation 2 S6 AP -1 & 1+1 S5 AP 0

 

So Abaddon if he makes 6 attacks with the Talon of Horus he doesn't get D6 extra attacks since the demon weapon isn't used and conversly 6 attacks with his demon weapon aren't resolved at X2 strength since the Talon of Horus isn't used.

 

It doesn't say anywhere that you need to make an attack with the chainsword to get the additional attack.

[Raven1]

How would it work if you dont attack with the weapon. A model equipped with a chainaxe and chainsword never has to use his chainsword, why would it get the extra attack?

 

Again using Abaddon as an example would he get an extra D6 attacks because of Drach'nyen if he only attacks with Talon of Horus or would Drach'nyen get x2 ate attacks if he doesn't use Talon of Horus. Or if a model has a lightning claw and chainsword does the chainsword get to re roll wounds if he doesn't attack with the lightning claw?

 

I don't see how the benefit comes into play if you dont use the weapon, which would mean at least one attack must be allocated to the weapon.

 

Certainly worth clarification from rule writers

[Brother Aiwass]

I want no derail the thread further, as is being discussed here. But by RAW its pretty clear that is a bonus attack that no need to be triggered by the use of the weapon, but just by having it.

[foamy248]

I think it's pretty explicit that they get an extra attack with the chainsword regardless of whether they use it - 'EACH TIME THE BEARER FIGHTS, IT CAN MAKE 1 ADDITIONAL ATTACK WITH THIS WEAPON.' Not, 'every time the bearer fights with this weapon'. Raven1, I hope I don't sound too salty, I think it's pretty clear cut.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

That is not a legal squad.  One too many weapon upgrades.  Up to 4 chosen can take a special weapon, melee weapon, or pair claws.  Then one may take a special or heavy.  Then the champion can take champion weapons.  So you could have 5 power swords, including the champion, and one special weapon, or you could have 4 power swords and two.

 

 

You're right. So it will be 5 power sword + 1 special weapon and eventually a combi-weapon or plasma pistol on Chosen champion. *

 

In fact for my Slaanesh-hug team i donno what to choose between 9 Chosen (5 power sword + 1 special weapon) + 1 Chaos lord with power maul on a rhino (11 attack S4, AP-3 + 8 standard attack, allreroll 1 to hit) OR 10 possessed + 1 Herald of Slaanesh on steed (stand next to a sorcerer first turn to get 14" mouvement) to get 2attack/possessed Ap-2 S6 and 2 Fight phase per turn. 

 

But the comparison that's really killing them right now is Fallen - essentially the same unit, but a whole two points cheaper per model for no bloody reason.  Frankly, that has to be a mistake, but it's one that I doubt we'll see fixed within the next year

 

 

Keyword are the reason you are looking for. Fallen can't have legion nor Mark of god, they can't be buffed by a Dark Apostle, a Daemon Prince for exemple.

Especially when we will get our codex Fallen will prevent an army for getting Legion bonus. 

[Brother Aiwass]

How I read it <Fallen> is the <Legion> keyword.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Yes, and i think it's for preventing someone to add another legion to a squad of Fallen. So when SM get their chapter doctrine and SMC their legion specific rules Fallen won't have any bonus.