Which primarch is next? Or will it be two?

[totgeboren]

 

I think GW might be pushing releases based on story rather than based on sales. I can almost guarantee Angron would have been a better seller than Mortarion, yet the story demanded Mortarion.

 

I mean this with all due respect to the sculptors (who actually decide what to do), but that literally couldn't be less true.

 

"Here's a model." --> "Okay, time to make rules and lore for it." --> Release.

 

The story didn't demand Mortarion. Mortarion was coming, and that demanded a story.

 

 

This comment confuses me. What about all the concept sketches and stuff like that that used to be leaked occasionally back in the day? They were not in general drawn by sculptors, but rather passed on to the sculptors from the game designers.

 

I am sure JJ talked about the process in a WD. First ideas, then sketches, then stuff is decided on, then that goes to the sculptors, the result is either approved or not, and only after that does the model get rules.

But what is sketched in the first place is based on what story the design team wants to tell.

I mean, it's not like a sculptor came up with the Tau model line back in 3ed and GW was like "Oh, neat, lets make a story for these guys!".

 

Unless GW have changed the process markedly lately, the game designers would have asked for design sketches of Mortarion long before sculpting was started. This means they would have the outline of a story in mind at that stage already.

 

But sure, it's not 5ed anymore, things might have changed. I just don't see how GW would function if it was the sculptors that had the first word.

It would be like back in RT days, when they sometimes released a blister of something random that didn't really go with anything else, and that was that!

[A D-B]

 

 

I think GW might be pushing releases based on story rather than based on sales. I can almost guarantee Angron would have been a better seller than Mortarion, yet the story demanded Mortarion.

 

I mean this with all due respect to the sculptors (who actually decide what to do), but that literally couldn't be less true.

 

"Here's a model." --> "Okay, time to make rules and lore for it." --> Release.

 

The story didn't demand Mortarion. Mortarion was coming, and that demanded a story.

 

 

This comment confuses me. What about all the concept sketches and stuff like that that used to be leaked occasionally back in the day? They were not in general drawn by sculptors, but rather passed on to the sculptors from the game designers.

 

I am sure JJ talked about the process in a WD. First ideas, then sketches, then stuff is decided on, then that goes to the sculptors, the result is either approved or not, and only after that does the model get rules.

But what is sketched in the first place is based on what story the design team wants to tell.

I mean, it's not like a sculptor came up with the Tau model line back in 3ed and GW was like "Oh, neat, lets make a story for these guys!".

 

Unless GW have changed the process markedly lately, the game designers would have asked for design sketches of Mortarion long before sculpting was started. This means they would have the outline of a story in mind at that stage already.

 

But sure, it's not 5ed anymore, things might have changed. I just don't see how GW would function if it was the sculptors that had the first word.

It would be like back in RT days, when they sometimes released a blister of something random that didn't really go with anything else, and that was that!

 

Often the sculptors are the same people doing those concept art sketches, by and large. When I say "the sculptors" I mean "Citadel" and "the minis designers, etc.". There's no exact delineation because every project is different, but roughly speaking, no, it's the opposite of what you're saying. It's not the game designers asking for sketches of Mortarion first, starting the process. At least not on most projects. It's a melange of sculpting/design (and marketing, depending on who you ask) that starts the process for a lot of releases, which ultimately ends with the Studio/game designers as the last step of the process more often than not. It isn't "We're taking the story in this direction, please start designing X." It's "Here is the design for X, we're making X next. Invent lore for it."

 

It's not particularly new, either. It's just more noticeable these days to some of us because the setting has a metaplot now, so there are leaps in design and narrative highlighting the differences.

 

I'm NDA'd up, so obviously I can't give named examples. I know of several special characters, for example, who have models done or in the planning process, but no lore to go with them yet because their releases are so far away. (And for anyone watching; don't try to guess based on my books, I assure you that you'll be wrong.) Again, it's nothing that hasn't been said in various interviews by Gav, Jervis, Andy, and co. so I doubt it's a surprise to anyone, but it's always interesting.

 

tl;dr -- It's a cool mix of creative input from various sections (which, let's be honest, has rocked out loud for a lot of the releases, especially in 2017), not a one-way road from the game designers / narrative side.

[Sete]

Yeah they should hurry up with the Custodes General. Need something to do :D

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

I think GW might be pushing releases based on story rather than based on sales. I can almost guarantee Angron would have been a better seller than Mortarion, yet the story demanded Mortarion.

 

I mean this with all due respect to the sculptors (who actually decide what to do), but that literally couldn't be less true.

 

"Here's a model." --> "Okay, time to make rules and lore for it." --> Release.

 

The story didn't demand Mortarion. Mortarion was coming, and that demanded a story.

I meant it more of GW thinking less "Hey what Primarch would make us the most money? Angron? Okay throw him into the story against Guilliman"

 

If GW was only thinking about money (which is still a primary concern no matter what) I don't think they would have released DG over Angron. It is less risky than Slaanesh models which some people avoid in modern culture (aka a blood thirsty demon butchering people is okay. OMG is that a breast, no you can't have that).

 

GW is rather giving DG a chance, and while yes it's a calculated risk, could have flopped. They then introduce the story way before the actual release. We saw DG in Warzone Fenris being rather prevalent a year before DG release. So while I know doubt that the model idea came before the story, they are introducing the story way before the models. The only surprise so far is the Primaris, and that is still being explained, but it left people uneasy with lack of the full details. I mean we thought BA and SW would have their Gene flaws corrected and DA being forced out of their secrets. That seems to not be the case now.

 

In short: GW is releasing models based on a pre-planned story path. So we don't read about Mortarion with no model releases, but suddenly get Angron with no story just to make money.

[A D-B]

 

 

I think GW might be pushing releases based on story rather than based on sales. I can almost guarantee Angron would have been a better seller than Mortarion, yet the story demanded Mortarion.

I mean this with all due respect to the sculptors (who actually decide what to do), but that literally couldn't be less true.

 

"Here's a model." --> "Okay, time to make rules and lore for it." --> Release.

 

The story didn't demand Mortarion. Mortarion was coming, and that demanded a story.

I meant it more of GW thinking less "Hey what Primarch would make us the most money? Angron? Okay throw him into the story against Guilliman"

 

If GW was only thinking about money (which is still a primary concern no matter what) I don't think they would have released DG over Angron. It is less risky than Slaanesh models which some people avoid in modern culture (aka a blood thirsty demon butchering people is okay. OMG is that a breast, no you can't have that).

 

GW is rather giving DG a chance, and while yes it's a calculated risk, could have flopped. They then introduce the story way before the actual release. We saw DG in Warzone Fenris being rather prevalent a year before DG release. So while I know doubt that the model idea came before the story, they are introducing the story way before the models. The only surprise so far is the Primaris, and that is still being explained, but it left people uneasy with lack of the full details. I mean we thought BA and SW would have their Gene flaws corrected and DA being forced out of their secrets. That seems to not be the case now.

 

In short: GW is releasing models based on a pre-planned story path. So we don't read about Mortarion with no model releases, but suddenly get Angron with no story just to make money.

 

...sort of? That amounts to nothing more than "Stuff is coming out, make lore for it" which is 1. What I explained, and 2. The bare minimum, anyway. You posit two extremes with your phrasing, that's all. And the reality is much closer to one side, but still in the middle ground. Yes, they release story/lore for whatever is coming out, because they've done that for... well, since forever, to some degree - like I said, it's just more obvious now because there's a metaplot.

 

In no way does that mean "the story demands X, so they release X". It still means the production line has X coming, so they make a story for it. I'd certainly never argue GW chose factions specifically for the money, no. That'd be a very weird argument indeed. The opposite, in fact: releases are based on sculptor/designer enthusiasm and inspiration, with a side order of marketing and story purpose. 

[Marshal Rohr]

So what sick, sadistic human being sat down and felt enthusiasm for Centurion suits? What horrible traumas were inflicted on these people as children to make them think Wulfen, Dreadknights, and Dreadnaughts with axes were in anyway acceptable?

[Jarl Caldersson]

So what sick, sadistic human being sat down and felt enthusiasm for Centurion suits? What horrible traumas were inflicted on these people as children to make them think Wulfen, Dreadknights, and Dreadnaughts with axes were in anyway acceptable?

Not sure how that applies to primarchs....

[Marshal Rohr]

It's a response to ABD's post, and I didn't feel the need to quote him because he wrote a lot and some people read these forums on their phones.

[Urriak Urruk]

I don't know why people are arguing with ADB when he clearly has a better idea of how models, story and rules are developed.

 

IMO the people who determine what models are made make some vague deliberations on why they want them (Ex: Magnus is popular, let's make Mortarion soon), then they make the models, then they make the story.

 

Still doesn't provide too many clues about which Primarch is next, there are hints for almost half of them now...

[Bulwyf]

Arguing with someone who has an actual relationship with BL/GW over matters like this is just...best not say. I'll leave it as mildly surprising.

[Jarl Caldersson]

I don't know why people are arguing with ADB when he clearly has a better idea of how models, story and rules are developed.

 

IMO the people who determine what models are made make some vague deliberations on why they want them (Ex: Magnus is popular, let's make Mortarion soon), then they make the models, then they make the story.

 

Still doesn't provide too many clues about which Primarch is next, there are hints for almost half of them now...

 

 

I wasn't argueing, simply was saying that we won't have random primarchs show up, because GW tells a story months before hand to get ready for their arrival. Mortarion was discussed back in Warzone Fenris, and we just got him a couple months ago. Guilliman had a whole cadia event leading up to his arrival. 

[Urriak Urruk]

 

I don't know why people are arguing with ADB when he clearly has a better idea of how models, story and rules are developed.

 

IMO the people who determine what models are made make some vague deliberations on why they want them (Ex: Magnus is popular, let's make Mortarion soon), then they make the models, then they make the story.

 

Still doesn't provide too many clues about which Primarch is next, there are hints for almost half of them now...

 

 

I wasn't argueing, simply was saying that we won't have random primarchs show up, because GW tells a story months before hand to get ready for their arrival. Mortarion was discussed back in Warzone Fenris, and we just got him a couple months ago. Guilliman had a whole cadia event leading up to his arrival. 

 

 

Looking at these comments it kind of looks like an argument, but it doesn't really matter. I am in agreement with ADB that your original comment doesn't make much sense, the modelers don't really make decisions based on what is written.

 

Mortarion was mentioned in Warzone: Fenris, but I think the writers of that knew Mortarion/Death Guard would be the next new army and were hinting at it. I don't think the modelers read Fenris and decided to make Mortarion based off of that, I think it was the exact opposite.

 

Still, if you are making a point about "the Primarchs hinted at returning most in recent fluff, are most likely to return," I agree with that. Mortarion in Warzone Fenris is a big indicator of that.

 

Who does that leave?

 

1. Fulgrim: Has probably had the most hints/appearances in recent fluff, more than Angron. He literally tried to corrupt G-Man after his return, and has that big appearance in Dark Imperium's prologue

2. Angron: He's mentioned a couple of times, and Armageddon is again daemon infested.

3. The Lion: In Warzone Fenris I think the Cahngeling came close to breaking into the Rock and breaking the Fallen/Luthor out, and may have been trying to find the Lion. I can't really remember the specifics I don't have the book myself.

4. Russ: Hinted at loads in Warzone F, did someone even have a vision of him? I again can't remember the details.

 

I think it's one of these four, and if it's a loyalist next I'm guessing it's the Lion. I remember that Changeling thing happening and thinking "wow that came really close to some lore-changing stuff!" But Russ too is a big possibility.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Meh make of it as you will my point is simple. It was abvious the moment the DA codex was announced for December that Lion wouldn't come out.

 

There was no story build up to his reveal, these Primarch are getting a couple months of hype before release. They are simply not going to drop random models without some sort of fluff behind it.

[Urriak Urruk]

Meh make of it as you will my point is simple. It was abvious the moment the DA codex was announced for December that Lion wouldn't come out.

 

There was no story build up to his reveal, these Primarch are getting a couple months of hype before release. They are simply not going to drop random models without some sort of fluff behind it.

 

If my Lion guess is so wrong, pray tell who do you think is next?  

[Sete]

Russ.

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

Meh make of it as you will my point is simple. It was abvious the moment the DA codex was announced for December that Lion wouldn't come out.

There was no story build up to his reveal, these Primarch are getting a couple months of hype before release. They are simply not going to drop random models without some sort of fluff behind it.

 

 

If my Lion guess is so wrong, pray tell who do you think is next? ;)

To be honest I was thinking Russ. I don't like it, I'd rather have Lion. It's a weak argument but it seems like GW is releasing primarchs in spring (loyalists) and fall (traitors). RG was released in february or March. SW get their Space Marine Conquest (or Primaris Marine integration novel) in March which would lead up to the SW codex. If they launch a Primarch I would believe it would be during their codex, so SW codex could mean Russ.

 

The issue, there is no buildup right now, every other Primarch had some sort of build up of hype. Maybe they are waiting for after the holidays. Another issue is that SW have HEAVILY been in the spotlight recently. Warzone Fenris didn't introduce any new models for SW although 1ksons did get Magnus. Still to have SW once again in the spotlight causes other players to be disgruntled. Another issue is that I am not sure Russ would fit in the story very well right now, hence why I think Lion is better.

[Urriak Urruk]

 

 

Meh make of it as you will my point is simple. It was abvious the moment the DA codex was announced for December that Lion wouldn't come out.

There was no story build up to his reveal, these Primarch are getting a couple months of hype before release. They are simply not going to drop random models without some sort of fluff behind it.

 

If my Lion guess is so wrong, pray tell who do you think is next? 

To be honest I was thinking Russ. I don't like it, I'd rather have Lion. It's a weak argument but it seems like GW is releasing primarchs in spring (loyalists) and fall (traitors). RG was released in february or March. SW get their Space Marine Conquest (or Primaris Marine integration novel) in March which would lead up to the SW codex. If they launch a Primarch I would believe it would be during their codex, so SW codex could mean Russ.

 

The issue, there is no buildup right now, every other Primarch had some sort of build up of hype. Maybe they are waiting for after the holidays. Another issue is that SW have HEAVILY been in the spotlight recently. Warzone Fenris didn't introduce any new models for SW although 1ksons did get Magnus. Still to have SW once again in the spotlight causes other players to be disgruntled. Another issue is that I am not sure Russ would fit in the story very well right now, hence why I think Lion is better.

 

 

Magnus and Mortarion were both revealed ahead of time, but Guilliman just kind of dropped. There were the two preceding Gathering Storm books, but neither really pointed to Guilliman returning (a lot of people thought it would be Dorn to jump out to save Terra at the last moment).

 

Guilliman was revealed less than a month ahead of release, it was the leaked WD cover that gave it away.

 

I really don't know either, but the unresolved Lion still gives me hope.

 

[Guest Triszin]

Russ next in spring! Lord of winter is 30k, spring time Russ is 40k!

 

 

 

 

Also

 

On April 1st a primarch will be available....

 

Alpharius or lion. Or both

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

 

 

Meh make of it as you will my point is simple. It was abvious the moment the DA codex was announced for December that Lion wouldn't come out.

There was no story build up to his reveal, these Primarch are getting a couple months of hype before release. They are simply not going to drop random models without some sort of fluff behind it.

 

If my Lion guess is so wrong, pray tell who do you think is next? ;)

To be honest I was thinking Russ. I don't like it, I'd rather have Lion. It's a weak argument but it seems like GW is releasing primarchs in spring (loyalists) and fall (traitors). RG was released in february or March. SW get their Space Marine Conquest (or Primaris Marine integration novel) in March which would lead up to the SW codex. If they launch a Primarch I would believe it would be during their codex, so SW codex could mean Russ.

The issue, there is no buildup right now, every other Primarch had some sort of build up of hype. Maybe they are waiting for after the holidays. Another issue is that SW have HEAVILY been in the spotlight recently. Warzone Fenris didn't introduce any new models for SW although 1ksons did get Magnus. Still to have SW once again in the spotlight causes other players to be disgruntled. Another issue is that I am not sure Russ would fit in the story very well right now, hence why I think Lion is better.

Magnus and Mortarion were both revealed ahead of time, but Guilliman just kind of dropped. There were the two preceding Gathering Storm books, but neither really pointed to Guilliman returning (a lot of people thought it would be Dorn to jump out to save Terra at the last moment).

 

Guilliman was revealed less than a month ahead of release, it was the leaked WD cover that gave it away.

 

I really don't know either, but the unresolved Lion still gives me hope.

 

Still there was a event for RG.

 

There is that rumor engine sheet. So I think that Lion shoulder may be that custodes HQ. You can see in the top right two lines that maybe the feathers of that hq.

[Corswain]

I really don't know either, but the unresolved Lion still gives me hope.

See, I really hope that is not the Lion. I will be a little gutted if GW go so cheesy as to put a Lion on a guy named Lion. So bad.

It’s worse than Space Wolves with wolf furs riding on wolves.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

I'm NDA'd up, so obviously I can't give named examples. I know of several special characters, for example, who have models done or in the planning process, but no lore to go with them yet because their releases are so far away. (And for anyone watching; don't try to guess based on my books, I assure you that you'll be wrong.) 

SQUATS!!! Its Squats isnt it?? :P

[M@verik115]

 

 

 

I'm NDA'd up, so obviously I can't give named examples. I know of several special characters, for example, who have models done or in the planning process, but no lore to go with them yet because their releases are so far away. (And for anyone watching; don't try to guess based on my books, I assure you that you'll be wrong.) 

SQUATS!!! Its Squats isnt it??

 

The correct term is Adeptus Parvus

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

I really don't know either, but the unresolved Lion still gives me hope.

See, I really hope that is not the Lion. I will be a little gutted if GW go so cheesy as to put a Lion on a guy named Lion. So bad.

It’s worse than Space Wolves with wolf furs riding on wolves.

Oh it's already happening. Don't you worry, don't you worry...

 

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Lion_El%27Jonson?file=Pre_heresy_lion_el_johnson.jpg

[Urriak Urruk]

 

 

I really don't know either, but the unresolved Lion still gives me hope.

See, I really hope that is not the Lion. I will be a little gutted if GW go so cheesy as to put a Lion on a guy named Lion. So bad.

It’s worse than Space Wolves with wolf furs riding on wolves.

Oh it's already happening. Don't you worry, don't you worry...

 

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Lion_El%27Jonson?file=Pre_heresy_lion_el_johnson.jpg

 

 

Where did they even find a lion big enough to do that...

[SickSix]

And yet Ferrus and Sanguinius are still more likely to return than Jaghatai...

I have insider information that Russ will return, as a primarch sized wolf, with Jahhatai riding on his back!

 

(Not really, but that's the only way I will accept the return of Russ)