New codex coming this year...

[TheHarrower]

 

"That one thing nobody wants to take is better than the other thing nobody wants to take". It really doesn't matter who of those two are better since if possible they get replaced by a unit from the Elite, Fast Attack or Heavy Support section anyway.

I think the Codex will change that. Most players who have received a new Codex want to run at least 3 Troop units for CPs to power the various stratagems that the new codices include. You can run a Battle Forged army based on Spearhead/Vanguard/Outrider Detachments but you may find yourself thirsting for more CPs after the first couple of turns.

 

Of course we also have Scouts but I think Intercessors may have some mileage, particular as they are apparently dropping to 18ppm in our Codex and CA. Suffice it to say I have 10 from Dark Imperium and I will give them a chance to prove their worth.

 

 

I don't think much will change. For those 3 troop types people will most likely be taking 5 man Scout units. They're cheap, they keep your backline safe since they can infiltrate, and they can add in a Missile Launcher for long range work. I think you might see Intercessors played a bit more, but by and large mini marines will rule the troops slot. If I would use Intercessors I would go with auto bolt rifles so they can serve as mobile objective grabbers. I could see using 1 unit of them. Nothing more than that.

[Blindhamster]

Intercessors in 5 man squads with a grenade launcher in each are able to deal with light armour stuff thanks to the 30" krak grenade and cost a whopping 91 points per squad now, they have a better engagement range than tacticals and better shooting for the squad. They can afford to walk across the battlefield from cover to cover, or more likely will sit on an objective and hold it.

 

intercessors with auto bolt rifles probably wouldn't bother with the grenade launcher and would cost 95 points for a 5 man squad that is surprisingly mobile, and if the blood angels get an advance and charge rule, I'd say they'd be a pretty obvious choice for BA to take as it meshes so well (move 6, advance d6, shoot twice, charge 2d6).

 

If you have the tacticals in a rhino, they aren't benefitting from the lascannon as the rhino doesn't have firepoints anymore. And suddenly the 5 man squad costs around double the intercessors. I agree completely that the lascannon is a big deal, but its the sole workhorse of the unit, if the sergeant has a special weapon, that may make a difference as well.

[Blindhamster]

Don't get me wrong, I think tacticals can be great, there is a reason I have 8 tactical squads built... I just feel that Intercessors have a more specialised role (which makes sense considering the name), they're fairly resilient and are reasonably good at both shooting and melee (unlike tacticals bar 1/2 models). However they are not geared toward killing vehicles, they're well suited for dealing with infantry. I'd seriously consider running a tactical squad to be the work horse via its gun and bubble wrap with intercessors these days.

 

and again, if we get advance and charge, i'll be seriously considering swapping weapons on mine to auto bolt rifles for the pretty awesome mobility it'd provide.

[Panzer]

I'll take Auto Boltrifle Intercessors for my KoB for sure. I mean it's the variant I like the least but the most fitting so I kinda have to. :D

but its the sole workhorse of the unit

Yes, it's a Lascannon with 5 wounds and maybe a Plasmagun with it.

[Blindhamster]

Scouts as noted will likely remain the go-to troop choice for most players.

 

I'd like to have some scouts myself... if they had decent models.

[Pendent]

Agreed. I really like the rules for scouts but I just cannot stand the models at all anymore. I can't think of a single kit in the entire space marine range I dislike more.

[TheHarrower]

I wouldn't put the tacticals in a Rhino. I'd take a Razorback with AssCans. I agree that putting the Tacs in there is a waste, my point was if you needed to get them somewhere quick you could much more easily. When you say light vehicles for that grenade launcher, what exactly are you referring to? Krak Grenades don't do much. Sure the 30" range is nice, but it's S6 D3 -1. That isn't taking out much of anything.

[Blindhamster]

I'm intrigued to see if we will be shown how scouts fit into a primaris marines creation. Primaris still don't get the black carapace till the end of their creation, but in theory will be very large by the time they do...

Might have to look at how I could make some primaris scouts (I wouldn't use reivers because they are still in power armour which requires the carapace)

[Panzer]

S6 really isn't for vehicles anymore with the new wounding table. It's more for more durable infantry or bikes and such. I learned that the hard way with my T'au Pathfinder and their Rail Rifles.

 

Yeah I thought about Scouts as well. I mean you could use the old models for very young scouts (unless the BA way to make Primaris will result in fully developed Marines even before Scout training again) and the more experienced ones would be almost or fully Primaris sized. Would be cool to get Primaris Scouts but it kinda overlaps with what Reivers do. :D

[Blindhamster]

I wouldn't put the tacticals in a Rhino. I'd take a Razorback with AssCans. I agree that putting the Tacs in there is a waste, my point was if you needed to get them somewhere quick you could much more easily. When you say light vehicles for that grenade launcher, what exactly are you referring to? Krak Grenades don't do much. Sure the 30" range is nice, but it's S6 D3 -1. That isn't taking out much of anything.

 

After points changes that 5 man tactical squad in a razorback costs 219 points. (assuming combi plasma on the tac sergeant to make the unit have 2 useful models). It's little surprise that they are more useful than the intercessors then, you're paying more points than a 10 man intercessor squad costs.  (around 30 more to be precise).

 

Regardless, it's apples and oranges, they have different roles and fit different play styles. I personally am sick of razorback spam already and think they should cost even more than they are being bumped up to.

 

p.s. fair point on the grenade. I still think that it adds a little versatility to the squad, especially if you're going MSU. For reference two of my most common opponents are tau, so s6 is useful vs their battlesuits.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Blindhamster

[Brother Crimson]

Intercessors in 5 man squads with a grenade launcher in each are able to deal with light armour stuff thanks to the 30" krak grenade and cost a whopping 91 points per squad now, they have a better engagement range than tacticals and better shooting for the squad. They can afford to walk across the battlefield from cover to cover, or more likely will sit on an objective and hold it.

 

Has the point reduction of intercessor been published somewhere or it is still based on the Naftka Blog ?

 

Because at 90 point they are obviously better.

 

As for the tactical versus intercessor, I think they can both be used depending if you need special weapons or objective holder. I like to mix and match.

[Blindhamster]

Blood of Kittens also has the details and they're a pretty reliable source. It also fits with whats been mentioned on the community posts.

[TheHarrower]

 

Intercessors in 5 man squads with a grenade launcher in each are able to deal with light armour stuff thanks to the 30" krak grenade and cost a whopping 91 points per squad now, they have a better engagement range than tacticals and better shooting for the squad. They can afford to walk across the battlefield from cover to cover, or more likely will sit on an objective and hold it.

 

Has the point reduction of intercessor been published somewhere or it is still based on the Naftka Blog ?

 

Because at 90 point they are obviously better.

 

As for the tactical versus intercessor, I think they can both be used depending if you need special weapons or objective holder. I like to mix and match.

 

 

The rumored point changes are legit. I got a chance to flip through Chapter Approved and I compared it to what was posted on Dakka. They were all right.

 

Grenade launcher is definitely worth it for versatility at 1 point. I just wouldn't expect it to do much. 

 

Blindhamster

 

After points changes that 5 man tactical squad in a razorback costs 219 points. (assuming combi plasma on the tac sergeant to make the unit have 2 useful models). It's little surprise that they are more useful than the intercessors then, you're paying more points than a 10 man intercessor squad costs.  (around 30 more to be precise).

 

 

 

AssCans rule the day even with Razors and AssCans going up in points. I'd take an AssCan Razor and 5 Tac against Intercessors everytime. Not saying Intercessors are useless with the point drop. They just aren't as good of a choice vs. Tactical Marines or Scouts IMHO. I agree that the spam is dumb. I only run 2.

[Xenith]

Intercessors v tacticals v hellblasters is apples and oranges. 

 

Intercessors lack the damage output of a tac with 2 specials, but the tac squad lacks the damage output of a hellblaster squad. 

 

Saying intercessors arent powerful is like saying dire avengers arent powerful because they do less damage than firedragons.

 

Primaris have become specialists, like Eldar, as opposed to generalists. Your intercessors shouldn't be taking on the hard targets, that's for the Hellblasters. Intercessors are there to sit outside charge range and rapid fire weakened stuff. 

 

I think that in general marines are being redesigned as the army that has 'staying power'. 3+ save and 2W across the board goes a long way here. 

[Panzer]

 

I think that in general marines are being redesigned as the army that has 'staying power'. 3+ save and 2W across the board goes a long way here. 

I really hope so. It was always sad to see Marines to die in droves on the table.

[Blindhamster]

sorry yeah I was going to make the point about the razorback + tacticals costing only a few points less than 5 intercessors and 5 hellblasters but decided not to as then it's a leap frog thing of "well for just a few points more you can get x".

 

But they serve very different roles and it depends what you're looking for.

the combination of 9 intercessors and 9 hellblasters for 459 (464 if you want grenade launchers and a power sword on sergeant) is a pretty good one in terms of wounds on the table (38) and firepower (9-18 AP-4 plasma shots plus 9-18AP-1 bolter shots, all at 30" range) and on top of that, its all as good as having assault marines should it come to close combat (due to 2 attacks pm).

in a battle, I imagine the intercessors + hellblasters would "win" against the 2x6man tactical squads with combi plasma and lascannon in assault cannon razorbacks) (which would be 464 points)

But I still also agree that the maneuverability of the tacticals cannot be underestimated from an objective perspective.Likewise, the tacticals will do more damage to heavier vehicles IF they don't get in the razorback and make use of the lascannon.

And again, they have different roles, intercessors are supposed to be resilient enough to get to and hold an objective, because of this I would typically aim for 10 man squads (I didn't in the above example purely because I wanted to equal pointed forces for the example).
 

[Panzer]

It's also important to note that you don't HAVE to put the Tacticals into the Razorback. If you don't fear an alpha strike and have good objectives in your deployment zone you can just deploy them on their own.

It really just depends on the rest of your list. Lascannon Tacticals are good when the thing you're lacking is anti-vehicle firepower and already have everything else. Intercessors are good if you're lacking anti-infantry firepower.

Can't really view any of them in a vacuum, but so far thanks to Razorbacks it doesn't seem like Marine lists are lacking anti-infantry firepower so Lascannon Tacticals are more popular in competetive lists.

[Bremon]

If anything Primaris reinforce the idea that Guilliman sees the codex as misguided and is going back to legion strength and legion style armaments; one squad; one weapon type lol. The skeptic in me sees this as dumbing down an army that was already fairly plain so baby’s first army is less confusing to play. We’ll see! At least intercessors win over Tac marines in the looks department

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Scouts are great for troops in 8th edition. Lascannon tacticals are also good. I think primaris generally suffer from our access to cheap storm bolters elsewhere.

I don't think our codex will change these, but will be fine if it does I suppose. I just want a playable army at this point.

I suspect that cheap scouts for some command points and other 'troop' points go instead to elites to make use of said points will likely be the way of things for me.

 

From a story perspective it sounds like the scouts should all be pretty much wiped out and the Blood Angels are not making more is my understanding.

I think GW needs to get their fluff in order as it is beginning to drift from the crunch units pretty significantly in my opinion.

I am not against new models, but the lore is pretty hamfisted currently and needs sorted out I think regarding the demise of the old armies.

 

Will be interesting to see what the codex fluff says. Part of me thinks they will not address this for now.

It will remain use what you have and don't worry about it I believe, but the story I am hearing seems to say these units no longer exist in significant numbers.

 

Scouts are just an example. The Tacticals (and so forth) should be about gone as well I would think storywise.

GW has always suffered a bit when considering the logistics of things.

They need to connect some dots pretty soon and explain some things better in universe I feel.

Likely they will not do it soon, so just try and have fun.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Blindhamster]

Close to 300 normal marines survived. Scouts are still a thing, primaris marines don't get the black carapace any earlier than other marines, so that suggests they either just don't fight till they have the carapace or they fight as scouts.

[Schlitzaf]

(I enjoy reading this thread but as always keep in mind my prospective as primarily Black Templar Player). But the question of Intercessors I think SF Panther covered it. Intercessors are best in support I have found of ‘Tactical’ Equivalant.

 

My current list (more so posted approved) has more Primaris Squads than their normal Astartes. I could never see them replacing my Astartes. Instead their lack of firepower is made up by two aspects. Well more like 4.

 

1) Staying Power. A Primaris Marine compared to a regular Astartes, is 10 (9) Points a wound. Vs Smite lists this is apparent. What makes it more important is when it’s turn 4-5 that 3 Man Intercessor Squad gonna be more valuable and durable than that 2-4 Man Tactical Squad. Durability in late game when both sides are running around with weakened Squads and lacking their heavy hitters, is paramount.

1B) In other words, Intercessors should be held back and move up slowly as fire support. The enemy Plasma and Weaponry has likely picked other more salient targets. Assuming both sides have had an equal and semi-reasonable exchange that those 3-4 remaining Intercessors are a Tactical Squad worth of attack + a mini Character (with 4 Chain Attacks in case of BA).

 

2) The best comparison espacially post approved is a Tactical Bro with Lascannon vs Intercessor. Both are 90 Points and good at backfield. The difference is as noted in the previous section, those Tacticals? Someone sneezes and they are dead. Charged by a outflanking bully unit like ASM they are dead or disabled for two turns. Intercessors? Your opponent needs to dedicate heavy fire power before they dream of dislodging them. And bully units? A Scout v Intercessor slap fight. My money on the Intercessors.

2b)This also means Intercessors can shift role to support your center or run as flank defense. Sense they can ward off bully and be an effective bully unit. Also cheap enough to not be a large time and point investment.

 

To sum up what I am trying to say here. Intercessors are Blood Angels just as much as your Tactical Marines. And your Tactical Marines are Blood Angels are just as much as your Intercessord are. Intercessors are nice filler being able to shore up body count while being Units that can transition. You still need to bring your big guns like Lascannons to pop heavy armor. Every unit has a role. Proper Tool for the Proper Job. And one Tool being better at its niche doesn’t invalidate the other Tool at its niche.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

Close to 300 normal marines survived. Scouts are still a thing, primaris marines don't get the black carapace any earlier than other marines, so that suggests they either just don't fight till they have the carapace or they fight as scouts.

The recruiting and replenishment numbers have never really made sense realistically for space marines. But it's a game so we will put that aside.

Yeah there is a scout marine likely running around in those 300 remaining dudes surely... but for how long after reorg of remaining forces? One battle, two...

I think I only need 15 of them to be scouts for my 'final' battle.

 

If you shut off the magic space marine generator in story and send all new recruits to become primaris marines...

How long are scouts and tacticals likely to be around ? Considering the brutal fighting leading to death promotion etc?

We used to get around being almost wiped out by saying time passed and we recruited and rearmed... That is not gonna be happening anymore being my point.

 

Anyhow, prolly better not to think too much about it.

Going to try and have fun with all these models I have spent so much much time and treasure accumulating over the years while I still can =)

Hopefully the codex sees them out on a high note.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Blindhamster]

 

 

Close to 300 normal marines survived. Scouts are still a thing, primaris marines don't get the black carapace any earlier than other marines, so that suggests they either just don't fight till they have the carapace or they fight as scouts.

The recruiting and replenishment numbers have never really made sense realistically for space marines. But it's a game so we will put that aside.

Yeah there is a scout marine likely running around in those 300 remaining dudes surely... but for how long after reorg of remaining forces? One battle, two...

I think I only need 15 of them to be scouts for my 'final' battle.

 

If you shut off the magic space marine generator in story and send all new recruits to become primaris marines...

How long are scouts and tacticals likely to be around ? Considering the brutal fighting leading to death promotion etc?

We used to get around being almost wiped out by saying time passed and we recruited and rearmed... That is not gonna be happening anymore being my point.

 

Anyhow, prolly better not to think too much about it.

Going to try and have fun with all these models I have spent so much much time and treasure accumulating over the years while I still can =)

Hopefully the codex sees them out on a high note.

At least a squad of scouts got away.

 

However, again, primaris marines in theory would need to be scouts initially as that cannot wear power armour till the same point as any other marine.

[tkni]

So, er, this was in the dakka thread mentioned...

 

Furthermore, I hope you like that swing twice, and attack a 3rd time Berserkers have, Death Company have it.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

via anonymous sources on Faeit 212

 

White Dwarf came early! I can confirm that White Dwarf says Dec. 2nd pre-order for Blood Angels and Dec. 9th release.  Dark Angels are Dec. 9th pre-ordet and Dec. 16th release.