the BIG 9th edition room

[Hymnblade]

14 points for a Neophyte is really steep when Boyz are 8 with the same WS/S/T and an extra attack. Without forward deployment, I really think they should be less than regular scouts.

 

Still, 2W initiates that can pass of 2D attacks to the neophytes could be pretty good. A big 20-man crusader squad is a great target for stratagems and buffs - good luck chewing through 20 bodies with Transhuman Physiology.

[Acebaur]

I'm not sure crusader squads are going be better than assault Intercessors honestly. You Los the ability to take neophytes but for 1 point more you get a much better pistol and an extra attack.

[Punchomatic]

It really depends on points. Are we sure scouts are only 1 point less? That seems insane given 1w vs 2w.

[Hymnblade]

Right now they're 1 point less. Assuming they stay the same in the codex and that Initiates go up like Tacticals, it'll be 18 vs 14.

[Medjugorje]

I think then their points could be accurate. If you have a squad with different wound characteristics is a very nice feature. I know your problem is that 14 points in general are too expensive...

[Acebaur]

I was referring to Initiates in crusader squads vs assault intercessors. The crusader squads are going to be 18 ppm for the Initiates but assault intercessors are only 1 ppm more at 19. You get a better pistol and an extra attack for that 1 point which pretty much means that crusaders are out classed by assault intercessors in every way.

 

The only advantage that crusaders have is the ability take power weapons(for now, I'm expecting the intercessor Sgt to gain access in the codex) and the ability to ride in a transport that can take 10 models. But given the new terrain rules I think it's a lot easier to foot slog than in previous editions so that's not as much of an issue.

[Medjugorje]

I dont have that problem because the damagedealer are other units then but if we could hold them cheap it could be a good objectiveholder especially if all other unit types are 3 bladeguards, 3 outrider, 3 aggressors, 3 eradicators etc... then a squad of 20 models with 30 wounds on max to wound 4+ ; 4++, 5+++ could be very tough. normal wounds on the Initiates and multiple damage weapons on neophytes could be a thing.

[SirJyo]

20 models with 30w siting on an objective, double tapping with bolters at 24" for 40 shots? Seems pretty hot to me.

Add in a sweet new multi-melta doing 2 shots in case something big comes along.

 

Otherwise making 31 ap -1 Chainsword attacks and 30 ap0 combat knife attacks on the charge, goodbye any infantry unit.

Mix in power weapons for taste.

 

Not points efficient at 320 base, completely hamfisted, but hard to shift and has templar all over it.

 

And you bet I'm gonna take these to friendly games.

Edited August 26, 2020 by SirJyo

[Urkh]

I'm honestly worried about neophytes in crusader squads if they stay at 14 ppm. If initiates are 18 ppm and two wounds, then for only 40 more points, you can just take another 10 initiate crusader squad than putting in 10 neophytes, and you have 10 extra wounds.

 

The other side of it, however, is thinking in terms of attacks, rather than wounds. Paying for more initiates gets you more wounds on the board, but how much does it hamper total attack (either ranged or melee) than taking the cheaper neophytes? They last longer because of the wounds, but maximum output per turn is lowered because fewer guys are actually shooting. At what point does having more wounds outweigh having more weapons on the table?

 

Sadly, both of these make me feel like agreeing with implausible nature about the crusader squad. (Assault) Intercessors just seem to be more efficient. I'm not big on primaris, and still want to see my firstborn shine.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Brothers, I just saw the rule we need back from the past. It isn't vows, its the rule from Codex:Armageddon that the EC doesn't take up any slots on the Force Org chart.

[SydonianDragoon404]

I agree Adelard either no force org slot or elite choice. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

I agree Adelard either no force org slot or elite choice.

He's just not a good enough force multiplier these days to be a HQ. When I was routinely taking at least four, he was an auto include. (As everyone else had at least four HQs for him to hunt down.)

Now, he's just not making the cut.

[Punchomatic]

The rule I want back is Favored Enemy: Everyone. That and the thing where if we fail morale from shooting we run forward.

[Medjugorje]

last thing is not easy to rebuild into 9th edition but prefered enemy should be possible.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

last thing is not easy to rebuild into 9th edition but prefered enemy should be possible.

 

 

Not as hard as you'd think. If we take a look at the nearest available GW rule, which happens to be an Ironjaws faction trait for Sigmar, we get:

 

Mad as Hell: Nothing infuriates the Ironjawz more than cowardly foes that attack them from afar. At the end of any phase, if any wounds or mortal wounds have been inflicted in that phase on an IRONJAWZ unit that is more than 9" from any enemy units, that IRONJAWZ unit can move D6".

 

So. For Black Templars to have a move after being shot trait we could do it one of two ways:

 

Zealous Advance: At the end of the opponent's shooting phase, choose any number of unengaged Black Templars units that lost at least one model to enemy shooting this turn. every model within those units can move up to d6 inches, but must end their movement closer to the nearest enemy model.

 

(This version lets you choose if your boys move or don't, but if you choose to move them every model must move. Slight adjustments can make it stronger or weaker depending.)

 

Untamed Zeal: During the morale phase, if a friendly  Black Templars unit from your army fails a morale check, and at least one model in that unit was destroyed by a shooting attack during a previous phase of that turn, no models flee from that unit. In addition, if no enemy units are within engagement range, you must move the unit d6 inches toward the nearest enemy unit. This move can take you within engagement range of enemy units.

 

...

 

The language isn't perfect, but I don't have any of my 40K books on hand to make a comparison.

[Punchomatic]

That is amazing and I want you to write our codex (supplement)

[SirJyo]

I'd love to have those balls-out moves against an opponent, even if not voluntary. Only problem is I've never lost a morale roll with SMs in 8th/9th.

 

I could see a stratagem

 

--zealous aproach-- 2cp

Use this stratagem at the end of the morale phase.

Pick a Templars' unit that lost models this turn (do not count combat attrition casualties).

This unit must move d6"+ however many models were lost this turn, and must end it's move closer to the nearest enemy unit.

----

Boom, neophytes are worth their price and are straight gas in both senses of the word.

Need to balance it, it can land you in trouble by moving too close.

Edited August 29, 2020 by SirJyo

[Medjugorje]

it would be better if there is a rule which gives you a charge for that 2 CPs or each unit gain this ability for an extra pile in move after the morale phase if its lost any models (which would be not too often in the game).

[SirJyo]

it would be better if there is a rule which gives you a charge for that 2 CPs or each unit gain this ability for an extra pile in move after the morale phase if its lost any models (which would be not too often in the game).

The main use would be on your opponent's turn since they may be shooting. I guess it is a pile in if we allow the unit to move into engagement range

[Mmmmm Napalm]

In regards to assault intercessors, my speculation was that they'll either get to use eviscerators, or replace their HBP with a combat shield.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Devout Push kind of reminds me of Righteous Zeal. Edited August 30, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Batrep with Templars vs Nidz by TTT -

 

https://youtu.be/whPgrEi15R0

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Just watched it. Though they have the most engaging personalities of any wargamers on Youtube, they dropped the ball on that bat rep rules wise. Made so many flubs I thought I was watching a MWG review. They also stacked the deck hard against the nids by taking so much dakka with full rerolls, while showcasing almost nothing unique about Templars other than the 5+ FNP for mortals. No special strats, no special litanies, and their gun line won them the day.

 

It was hard to be hype about, and that's a damn shame.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Being fair to them, they have never, to my knowledge, played the Dragons as Templars before and they themselves are trying to limit which armies they play to get better at knowing the rules. I look forward to watching it though, it's nice to see how much more attention we are getting from 3rd party sites in 9th.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Just watched it. Though they have the most engaging personalities of any wargamers on Youtube, they dropped the ball on that bat rep rules wise. Made so many flubs I thought I was watching a MWG review. They also stacked the deck hard against the nids by taking so much dakka with full rerolls, while showcasing almost nothing unique about Templars other than the 5+ FNP for mortals. No special strats, no special litanies, and their gun line won them the day.

 

It was hard to be hype about, and that's a damn shame.

.

I was disappointed and noted they missed out on some key strats I’ve learned here. The game did seem quite stacked right from the start.