GW and their recent approaches

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can’t reasonable expect gw to support models indefinitely ,

[Kastor Krieg]

Legends needs to just be removed. If it's not supported it's gone. Don't be all "oh no you can totally use them but not really." Rip that band-aid off.

Why exactly do you want myself or players like me to not play the game anymore?

 

Legends are not supported for tournaments, which I don't give fig about. I want rules, any rules, for the minis I have. They don't need to be super duper optimized, they just need to be compatible with the current edition. If something breaks down the road, I can house rule it with my friends.

 

I just don't want to have to write the rules myself to play with the models I own and I expect Legends to be there in 10ed as well.

[Robbienw]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I highly doubt geedub will drop firstborn any time soon and to say so is purely hearsay .

Even if old marines never get the axe as you say, there is enough going on to make people nervous and that is a solid truth.

 

 

 

Actions speak louder than words. When's the last time we saw a community article that featured artwork and photography of Firstborn, eh?

The answer to this is...very recently

 

The perception that GW don't show art and pictures of classic marines in codices and warcom articles is a false one. Of course newer stuff often gets put front and centre, but that is not new or exclusive to space marines as a faction.

 

Classic marines are here to stay guys.

Have you flipped through the new marine codex? Almost all the "Action photography" features nothing but primaris. The only real photography of firstborn you get is on their datasheets... if that.

I have. Rather like those recent warcom articles you seem to have missed, it is full of classic marine content ;)

[Bung]

You can’t reasonable expect gw to support models indefinitely ,

Yes i can. Thats what other companies do for at least a decade.

[MegaVolt87]

GW could encourage a more positive reaction to legends content if they put those models back into production with new kits and rules in codexes/ supplements. Even if it happens at most in the next edition. Its not a good look for so much loved old content to sit in legends, while the newer unproven content is force fed to everyone. I don't mind a lot of the new content, not all of it will be to taste. Far too much is in legends right now and its souring many who otherwise would actually like to get the new stuff. It also robs new players of classic content they will never get to experience or bother to chase or even know about having it stuck in the musty museam that is legends.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

You can’t reasonable expect gw to support models indefinitely ,

Yes i can. Thats what other companies do for at least a decade.

Do they have anywhere near the same level of inventory ?

[Warsmith Annüss]

I'd like to see the Anvil of Apotheosis from AoS come over. A true character creator would make all of us happy.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Also Grey Knights are definitely Space Marines.

 

Care to explain why? Rather than just stating some as though it is an immutable fact of the universe?

Grey Knights are as much Space Marines as Sisters of Battle or Custodes. Power armour and bolters doesn't make you a Space Marine army, neither does having Adeptus Astartes keyword. Tactical, Assault and Devastator squads, Scouts, Predator Tanks and now Primaris are indicative of a Space Marine army.

 

Basically every Space Marine army is Adeptus Astartes, but not every Adeptus Astartes army is a Space Marine.

 

 

 

 

 If we resorted to fan-made rules and models the game WILL die. The community couldn't make a ruleset that pleases anyone.

Laughs in Battlefleet Gothic and Battlefleet Heresy resurgence and revival internationally

 

A game that hasn't had any official support in over 10 years, and closer to 15 years of no support in reality.

Not to sound conflictive for the sake of conflict, but is that because BFG is a smaller, tight knit community with closer beleief as to how it should be done, because the fan rules are that good or because after 10-15 years of no content that fanbase takes whatever is available?

 

40k is a much larger community that contains way different ideas as to "how it should be done". Ask members of this very board if they are for or against an alternatig activation in 40k and you will see a very heated argument.

 

What gives you the right to say it's a smaller community, eh? Do you play, then? Partake? Counter-point to it being small - there's many pages on socials that dedicate themselves soley to BFH and BFG. Prior to Covid - the NOVA Open had all their tickets for the BFH narrative event sold out. I think it was something like 40-60 tickets, if I recall? Heresy had about 6 slots left. 

 

What's alternate activation have to do with it? There is none in the core BFG rule set. 

 

 

 

I did not mean offense by my statement. However I cannot say that BFG has a community that isn't smaller than mainline 40k with my anecedotal evidence. I don't know anyone, nor have known anyone that still plays BFG and I am not sure I know anyone that ever has.

 

As for the second point that one was on me for my poor explanation. I meant that in reference to the argument that 40k needs alternating activation which spring up from time to time. That point is why I do not beleive the assumedly larger 40k community could write rules for the game without killing the game or alienating large chunks of the playerbase.

 

Hungry Nostraman Lizard

Fan support for an out of print product is one thing. What you are advocating is essentially piracy. I can not support such a course of action because you have a belief that IP doesn't belong to someone. It does. End of story. Warhammer 40k is the property of Games Workshop. Saying anything else is wrong and probably borderline illegal.

 

As i've said to local players. If your codex is pirated and your models are recast you don't get a say in how the game is treated.

 

Now this brings it back to the subject - is it truly piracy if the stuff is discontinued? Space marine deathstorm pods? Legion torso upgrades? Mark 2 armor? For a while - the dreadnought drop pod was gone, just broken mold. The rules still existed, what are fans to do then? A more relative example - the Caestus Ram is still a very popular choice pick in a list - yet the model has been discontinued.

 

That's why I said fan support for OOP products is different to advocating that the fans take over an in print product because Volt has some highly politicized view about IP not belonging to the owner/creator.

 

However, I do feel that Legends is a well intentioned bad idea at best. Supporting models that aren't in production is nice but why not just keep printing their rules in relevant codexes and Imperial Armour? The second they said "Legends is not recommended for Competative Play" it means it is illegal for many groups. The same issue was when Forge World was "ask permission". If they had said Legends is a separate fully legal selection with no caveats or addendums then anti-Legends players wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

[Bryan Blaire]

It's not reasonable to expect GW to exist forever - it's not reasonable to expect any company to.

 

It's not unreasonable to expect support from a company still in business for materials that don't become obsolete, especially when the only thing that someone might be out for said support is time that they are already spending testing, and maybe ink & paper in a book. It's not like this is electronics, where new chip architecture necessitates new firmware and possibly OS or software tweaks. Even software doesn't try to "enhance" every menu function when something is already working right in new versions.

 

Legends is what, 50-ish datasheets? How many of those are simply wargear options? I know that at least the classic Astartes Chaplain on Bike was, and has now been released in Primaris form, so there's not even any concern with whether the rules have to be balanced around this one - if they are balanced for the Primaris version, then they have to be balanced for a classic Astartes version. Therefore this one should be a slam dunk for GW to add back in pretty swiftly.

 

Some of the issue of Legends is in GW's own design of going to "datasheets" rather than an army list entry with options lists. That is, again, on them.

 

The thing with Legends stuff is, if it's so easy to just pause them, then GW could just do that in the Codex. If all they need is minor Edition tweaks, then just do it - they can even use a Keyword for it that indicates in the Codex "This model will not receive more than baseline tweaks between Editions" or something - that helps manage user expectations.

 

The key here isn't "oh, it's too hard to support models that we don't make any more" (especially when at least some of those very models could be made without a ton of work if yo really want to) - it's a different legal issue, and they are providing an excuse from the sounds of things, and some folks have bought it.

 

---------------

 

If all someone has to add to the conversation is a regurgitated company line, they should probably simply see their way out - they've ceased being constructive and discussing the subject. There's also no point in arguing with them directly if that's all they have to add - simply ignore them and move on with other discussions that are actually meaningful and constructive.

[Cpt_Reaper]

nevermind. Post removed as it was not constructive and issue resolved regardless.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Cpt_Reaper

[WrathOfTheLion]

I am fine with the concept of 'Legends', but the implementation is awful. I think one should reasonably expect some lifetime and support out of the model, even if it has been removed from production. Maybe it's a couple editions or something, but when a model can be purchased, go out of production and then be put out with no support within a 1 year period, that inspires no confidence at all in the product.

 

FW is the worst here. I have quite a bit of FW for 30k, but I most certainly will not be purchasing any further kit for use in 40k at this point.

 

In other business, in my case software, we would have a deprecation plan for that. The way they do it where it's basically just dropped is not professional in my opinion.

Edited November 18, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Bung]

 

 

You can’t reasonable expect gw to support models indefinitely ,

Yes i can. Thats what other companies do for at least a decade.

Do they have anywhere near the same level of inventory ?

Just look at Battletech. A game thats been around longer than 40k still supporting Mechs from the start.

 

There is no reason for cant be done.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

Also Grey Knights are definitely Space Marines.

 

 

Care to explain why? Rather than just stating some as though it is an immutable fact of the universe?

Grey Knights are as much Space Marines as Sisters of Battle or Custodes. Power armour and bolters doesn't make you a Space Marine army, neither does having Adeptus Astartes keyword. Tactical, Assault and Devastator squads, Scouts, Predator Tanks and now Primaris are indicative of a Space Marine army.

 

Basically every Space Marine army is Adeptus Astartes, but not every Adeptus Astartes army is a Space Marine.

 

 

 

 

 

If we resorted to fan-made rules and models the game WILL die. The community couldn't make a ruleset that pleases anyone.

 

Laughs in Battlefleet Gothic and Battlefleet Heresy resurgence and revival internationally

A game that hasn't had any official support in over 10 years, and closer to 15 years of no support in reality.

Not to sound conflictive for the sake of conflict, but is that because BFG is a smaller, tight knit community with closer beleief as to how it should be done, because the fan rules are that good or because after 10-15 years of no content that fanbase takes whatever is available?

 

40k is a much larger community that contains way different ideas as to "how it should be done". Ask members of this very board if they are for or against an alternatig activation in 40k and you will see a very heated argument.

What gives you the right to say it's a smaller community, eh? Do you play, then? Partake? Counter-point to it being small - there's many pages on socials that dedicate themselves soley to BFH and BFG. Prior to Covid - the NOVA Open had all their tickets for the BFH narrative event sold out. I think it was something like 40-60 tickets, if I recall? Heresy had about 6 slots left. 

What's alternate activation have to do with it? There is none in the core BFG rule set.

 

 

I did not mean offense by my statement. However I cannot say that BFG has a community that isn't smaller than mainline 40k with my anecedotal evidence. I don't know anyone, nor have known anyone that still plays BFG and I am not sure I know anyone that ever has.

 

As for the second point that one was on me for my poor explanation. I meant that in reference to the argument that 40k needs alternating activation which spring up from time to time. That point is why I do not beleive the assumedly larger 40k community could write rules for the game without killing the game or alienating large chunks of the playerbase.

 

Hungry Nostraman Lizard

Fan support for an out of print product is one thing. What you are advocating is essentially piracy. I can not support such a course of action because you have a belief that IP doesn't belong to someone. It does. End of story. Warhammer 40k is the property of Games Workshop. Saying anything else is wrong and probably borderline illegal.

 

As i've said to local players. If your codex is pirated and your models are recast you don't get a say in how the game is treated.

 

 

Now this brings it back to the subject - is it truly piracy if the stuff is discontinued? Space marine deathstorm pods? Legion torso upgrades? Mark 2 armor? For a while - the dreadnought drop pod was gone, just broken mold. The rules still existed, what are fans to do then? A more relative example - the Caestus Ram is still a very popular choice pick in a list - yet the model has been discontinued.

 

That's why I said fan support for OOP products is different to advocating that the fans take over an in print product because Volt has some highly politicized view about IP not belonging to the owner/creator.

 

However, I do feel that Legends is a well intentioned bad idea at best. Supporting models that aren't in production is nice but why not just keep printing their rules in relevant codexes and Imperial Armour? The second they said "Legends is not recommended for Competative Play" it means it is illegal for many groups. The same issue was when Forge World was "ask permission". If they had said Legends is a separate fully legal selection with no caveats or addendums then anti-Legends players wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

I googled it - wiki lexicanum and a bunch of other;40k sites all said you’re wrong .

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

 

You can’t reasonable expect gw to support models indefinitely ,

Yes i can. Thats what other companies do for at least a decade.

Do they have anywhere near the same level of inventory ?

Just look at Battletech. A game thats been around longer than 40k still supporting Mechs from the start.

There is no reason for cant be done.

Battletech has a much smaller line though .

[Bung]

 

 

 

 

You can’t reasonable expect gw to support models indefinitely ,

Yes i can. Thats what other companies do for at least a decade.

Do they have anywhere near the same level of inventory ?

Just look at Battletech. A game thats been around longer than 40k still supporting Mechs from the start.

There is no reason for cant be done.

Battletech has a much smaller line though .

And GW is a much bigger company.

Sorry, alot of smaller companies do stuff like that. Corvus Belli gives you complete free rules and army builder for Infinity and its not the only one. And for age, Infinity is around for more than a decade.

They even are willing to work with other companies which to terrain and other stuff giving them a "Made for Infinity" license.

 

Thats just one example. And now you are telling me the biggest fish in the wargaming pond should not be able to do the same?

A company that has alot more money in its pockets?

 

The problem is not they cant do, the problem us they wont do, cause it would handicap their marketing practise in forcinvg people to buy the newest release.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Bung

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is so much easier for a small company be cause they has lot less inventory. For example it is easy to maintain say 10 molds but over a 1000 is a different story.

[chapter master 454]

You know, the word "Implementation" seems to keep creeping up on us like a lictor or is that just me?

 

Primaris implementation? Troubled.

Legends implementation? Troubled.

AoS implementation? Troubled.

 

Almost feels like GW have a bit of a problem with implementing things properly and with due respect and reason. I mean, some of those troubles were due to other events but I feel like maybe there is a bit too much...trying by GW to be unique and jazzy. Trying to become bespoke and undeniably known as the de facto source of certain things when aiming to do so has more often just ended in failure (See any game that attempted to be a "X Killer" like a Halo Killer or WoW Killer). Somewhat sadly, GW keeps shouting that they want to be unique and bespoke yet the universe they have built, both Fantasy (not AoS because to me that's just Fantasy but gone loopy. Miniatures do look gorgeous though) and 40K are well known and I would argue that they are the image that many conjure when "Space Marine" is uttered. While they don't own space marine as a name, they do in many minds with many people thinking the power armour of the adeptus astartes first and foremost with only die-hard old school star-craft players being an exception. To cap that off, Eldar maybe is not a unique name (unsure if it is) but ironically Aeldari just sounds more...generic and uninventive (when in doubt, be snobbish by adding A and E together at the start and end on a A, I or O) and I don't think many would have other images other than the rather well known visuals of the 40k versions, I mean...not sure how many franchises at their inception had the ability to capture "Space Elf" architecture so well to being a futuristic version of what elves of fantasy do.

 

Call it odd but...GW are maybe seeking something they already have. They ARE the image of Space Marines. Maybe Orks might be hard pressed but then again, not sure about others but I am pretty sure when you type Ork over Orc, you suddenly know "40k". Tau are a unique facet of 40k along with the myriad of Imperial Guard regiments that both pay homage to historical armies but also incorporate that style into their lore, Tyranids may of started as fairly bland concept but have earned their spot among the host of other "intergalatic Hangry bugs" in other IPs and stand out despite the crowd and can even stand up to being compared to Starship Trooper aliens (can't mind their name) and Zerg without being called "copies". Eldar, Dark Eldar and their host of smaller sects are all unique and diverse that play on known tropes however add their own flare and twists that cause them to be remembered beyond just "Torture Elves, Bone Elves".

Even Orks within 40k have become their own thing, despite common tropes still being there they took a simple idea (give ork gun) and made it feel like what Orks would and could do, and have become a beloved race known for firepower that is as powerful as it is fun!

 

A silly thought but it did cross my mind.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

How would you solve all their problems if they made you CEO tomorrow chief

[MegaVolt87]

How would you solve all their problems if they made you CEO tomorrow chief

For starters, good CEO's listen to other experts and advisors, along with market research/ customer feedback in decision making. Also clever ones don't get their community managers/ PR people to prune off complaints from corporate socials. The even better ones address the public directly, apologize for mistakes and announce step's to correct the problem along with a timeframe. New GW may be engaged far more with the community than ever before, however they are talking at you, not with you and that's something a lot of people have failed to notice about "new" GW

[Cpt_Reaper]

removed non constructive post

Edited November 19, 2020 by Cpt_Reaper

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

How would you solve all their problems if they made you CEO tomorrow chief

For starters, good CEO's listen to other experts and advisors, along with market research/ customer feedback in decision making. Also clever ones don't get their community managers/ PR people to prune off complaints from corporate socials. The even better ones address the public directly, apologize for mistakes and announce step's to correct the problem along with a timeframe. New GW may be engaged far more with the community than ever before, however they are talking at you, not with you and that's something a lot of people have failed to notice about "new" GW

I disagree geedub is doing so much better at PR now seriously.

 

There are questions like how to bring back customization that need a real well thought out answer.

[MegaVolt87]

GW socials merely re-post/ like hobby content. The few rare questions/ responses they respond to are softball questions from known GW positive people or are to praise posts. Hard questions and legitimate respectful complaints are swiftly deleated or radio silent on. That social engagement level is peak talking at your customers/ community, not with them.

[chapter master 454]

I will quickly get a shot here in:

 

Within lore the Grey Knights are a tool of the branch of the Inquisition known as the Ordo Malleus. For all intents and purposes they are a Astartes as they go through the same transformation as we see in Adeptus Astartes but Grey Knights have never had an official name such Malleus Astartes or Astartes Ordo.

 

On the superficial level, Grey Knights appear to be space marines in the generic term and name sense. However as a universe Space Marine actually has a meaning beyond just an image. Space Marines refers more commonly to the Adeptus Astartes, a faction and grouping of super soldiers formed from the aftermath of the Horus Heresy which was pushed by the Primarch of the XIIIth Legion, Roboute Gulliman. At that time, they were called Legionnaire Astartes if I remember right (or some variant).

 

What is getting thrown around is a useless name: Space Marine. What do we define as a Space Marine? I would think in this context that would any individual who has undergone the 19 implants, various Psycho-Indoctrination and Hormonal therapy. This stands them out from Custodes who undergo something else entirely.

So yes, Grey Knights are a form of Space Marine much like the Deathwatch are as well, only their requirements are stricter for their recruits and also require a specific trait which they never worry about as they have the constant train of black ships heading for Terra to comb through for recruits.

 

However, Grey Knights are not Adeptus Astartes as the classification of Adeptus is given to Astartes who follow the Codex Astartes as written by Gulliman, however the level of adherence can vary wildly and in some cases certain parameters are ignored (ether through disregard for the Codex or through a special pardon granted). Grey Knights do not follow the Codex Astartes and are not Adeptus Astartes. From their inception, creation and current methodologies they are a separate form of Astartes, much like the Primaris are (who themselves are a return to the old form of Legion Styling of strategies and thus possible for us to see Primaris Astartes become something akin to Legionaire Astartes). They have some elements that may hark to the Codex but overall their methods and tactics do not reflect them as Adeptus Astartes and that is fully reasonable, they are for fighting the horrors of the warp and not...other Astartes (except for heretic astartes when the need arises).

 

Throwing the word Space Marine around and not defining it is causing discomfort between some here so I thought I would throw a bar in there to see what happens. Grey Knights are space marines as are the heretics, however they are not the same faction as Space Marines as commonly seen and known. It would be like saying Wood Elves are not Elves when you think High Elves are the de facto version bar none.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is obvious geekay are space marines. Otherwise it like try to say kSons arnt CSM.

[Azekai]

Is obvious geekay are space marines. Otherwise it like try to say kSons arnt CSM.

I mean, if you look at how TSons and DG are treated regarding their keywords, they basically aren’t. GW wants them and the GKs to be separated thematically from their parent factions.

 

I think it’s tough for GKs Because they used to be space marines+, but that niche has been occupied by primaris and stomped on by Custodes.