GW and their recent approaches

[leth]

I personally think that overall they are doing just fine. While I am not happy with some of the changes they are making, I am glad they are willing to make the changes that they know will upset some people if it is for the benefit of the game. 
 

Do I want to pay for more books or deal with books that get outdated in 6 months Nope, but I would rather they fix things sooner rather than later and the price per hour is minimal. 
 

do I like the prices they charge? No, no by likes spending money, however it is a luxury good that is non essential and if I don’t think the model is worth it? I either don’t buy it or convert it from my bits backlog that includes over 10 years of extra parts from their other kits.

 

Do I wish more factions got updated sooner? Yes, however I also recognize that marines is their bread and butter. Marines are so popular that they came out with a game that is 100% marines against marines and it was so successful that they ported some of the kits to plastic and general release. Space marines pay for everything else, that is just a borderline fact and every other faction, even when more powerful or new, just doesn’t outsell space marines. 

 

 

the only thing I would like is that they take a more iterative over time approach to making changes, but I also recognize that a significant part of their base would lose their gak if they tried to make constant changes that impacted the meta or army comp of their army every month. 
 

I can recognize that just because I don’t like something, doesn’t mean it’s a bad idea over all. I also recognize that a certain segment is very opinioned and thus will dominate the conversation giving the illusion of being the majority and adjust my reactions accordingly.  It’s amazing how much the ratios changed on dakka once I ignored 2-3 users. Really eye opening. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by leth

[chapter master 454]

I do see some of your point there Leth but I think we can all agree that if Marines are the bread and butter...well...so far it's been "Opps, all Bread and Butter". You maybe get an empty ketchup bottle spray of xenos jam here and a non-existent spreading of chaos occasionally in recent times but really, it has been a non-stop Primaris show for the best part of 8th with no other fun releases. In fact the Necron update is to my memory the only decent xenos update since Rise of the Phoenix (oof) and even then, that PA wasn't exactly...inspiring.

 

Right now, with so many marine releases you face nothing but marines unless you have die-hard faction fans running other things. If it were me, I might of resorted to bringing my Knights if I was facing so many marines over and over again, just to get something interesting to look at on the board, Archimaxes could use the target practice!

 

It isn't as if the other factions wouldn't get sales. Tau have a strong following despite the polarising opinion of them, Chaos for crying out loud is the main antagonist of the Imperium yet they get as much love as the Eldar whom have kits from a time older than some players! (wouldn't be surprised if the sculpts are older than maybe a few newer fraters on here!). However if this Primaris binge is set so they can make a monstrous Xenos/Chaos saga where we get non-stop awesome new updates for the enemies of the Imperium then it would be amazing.

Its not that I don't like the models, I don't dislike bread...but I do like some ham, maybe lunch tongue...heck even some blueberry ( ;D ) jam is nice to keep the bread tasty. Only so much butter does!

[Bung]

Is so much easier for a small company be cause they has lot less inventory. For example it is easy to maintain say 10 molds but over a 1000 is a different story.

So what? Its pretty easy to hire a bunch of people for a big company to get stuff done.

Bit that would need them to admit they would care for a balanced game.

To get it straight, the only thing they would need to do is an Excel sheet with a unit construction formula and run every unit through it.

The last part could even be done by interns.

The problem is it wouldnt generate imidiate revenue and the newest hotness wouldnt sell as much at release.

 

Its just a matter of investing money to get stuff done if they would admit to failure in their design.

Thats pretty much how any big company solves problems.

But GW cant because its to big?

The simple problem is GW doesnt realize its a Problem as long es they earn money and sell the new stuff by the truck load.

[Antarius]

 

You can’t reasonable expect gw to support models indefinitely ,

Yes i can. Thats what other companies do for at least a decade.

How old are most of the models who have been moved to Legends?

 

Edit: I'm not trying to be snippy here, it's a genuine question.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Antarius

[Rik Lightstar]

 

How old are most of the models who have been moved to Legends?

 

Edit: I'm not trying to be snippy here, it's a genuine question.

 

 

A LOT of the entires are for things that have never had distinct models but were options for conversions, things like Librarians on Bikes, Techmarines having melee weapon options other than Power Axes.

 

There are also Forgeworld Weapon options like Twin Autocannon Dreadnoughts (been gone for a while I think) and Limited Release items like the Imperial Space Marine, Rhino Primaris, Land Raider Excelsior.

 

Rik

[Ahzek451]

Simply put, they do not invest enough resources in the rules development of the game. They haven't really since the beginning, and it only makes sense. There is not a lot of monetary incentive. Model company first. Obviously what they put in works for game as a whole and for most people. It's more or less the same recipe from inception. But it's not as good as it could be. And they know it.

 

With the sudden growth in the company over the last few years, they have improved on many aspects (they have yet to get a 100% on matching sprue numbers with instructions  ), and attention to rules was one of them. We got faq's and point adjustments. Major boons from what we had. But, anything is also better than nothing and that's where we were pretty much at. Point it, I'm not sure what fire would be needed to light under them to invest more in this dept. Currently what we have is a quick faq that fixes any blaring bugs and a wait on a chapter approved for some point adjustments. But does nothing to fix imbalances (that a points adjustment can't fix) until the next codex. 

[Lexington]

There are questions like how to bring back customization that need a real well thought out answer.

As I see it, “you can replace [basic weapon] with any any option from the [weapon type] List” doesn’t really require much thought. Heck, even if that’s melting brains in the Studio, they could just open up one of the ancient tomes collectively known as “any Codex released before 8th Edition” to see how it’s done.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

First we need to know why they don’t/don’t want to.

[chapter master 454]

I mean, in terms of customisation we were able to handle it well even back in 3rd edition, in fact back then relics cost points (and special characters were only with permission. Pepperidge farm remembers).

 

I would say the 8th edition form of laying out points is archaic and was a real hassle to work with it. 9th's way of doing it is interesting. Very Granular and able to be adjust to the unit perfectly...but...if we are doing it unit by unit then...why not just...you know...put the costs back onto the datasheets? Maybe only for Codex Datasheets but if each unit has a unique points cost and costing for gear then why not just put them back onto their datasheet...just saying...like we went full circle with it!

 

Not to mention the way other units would chose gear was based on lists much like back in 3rd and from there on a list was always given for characters. Was it a problem? No.

 

As for the model company first argument: GW would sell not even a FRACTION of the models they do now without the games that go with the models. As much as they are a model company, the games are what drive sales and a want for the models. Thus it is in their best interest to make interesting rules, good rules and balanced rules. A game that lasts and people can enjoy for ages will profit them greatly.

I would point out that some games are still holding a legacy due to good community support and systems. Elder Scrolls Skyrim is carried by mods and even the older Elder scrolls such as Morrowind still have a thriving community due to the ability of the community to add and make the game what it is. We have even seen in recent news that the beta tests for Rollback netcode for various fighting games well over 10 (and even 20 years I believe) old just suddenly skyrocket in player count and sales despite seeing no other news in recent times which shows how powerful having a strong community support element.

 

A game is nothing without community and if GW does not respect the games that ultimately drive the sales of models, they will sell no models and die.

 

Addition for the response from Black Blow Fly: Gee, that is a great question and something we would all love to know. Maybe if they did something to allow the community to know and understand their methods, almost like...communicating and talking. "Silencing a man does not stop the truth. It only proves you have something to hide". There is no reason for radio silence, especially during these times and is in fact more so important than ever. They are more than able with how quick I get e-mails and notifications about how "we are still making models" but when we ask questions, they cherry pick.

 

I would point out that similarly, Arc System Works; the creator of Guilty Gear franchise and currently creating Guilty Gear Strive have gone through multiple Betas and have not only been responsive to community feedback but their articles of answering community questions have been packed with not only actual tough community questions they opted to answer but they also gave decent answers and has seen company confidence from consumers rise. There are reasons to keep some things hush, like awesome projects that are soon to be revealed but when asked about very serious matters that the community has wanted answers for now over the course of not just 8th but continues into 9th; it is questionable as to what you have behind your back. If it is flowers, little reason to hide it unless you are holding an axe.

[Ahzek451]

I mean, in terms of customisation we were able to handle it well even back in 3rd edition, in fact back then relics cost points (and special characters were only with permission. Pepperidge farm remembers).

 

I would say the 8th edition form of laying out points is archaic and was a real hassle to work with it. 9th's way of doing it is interesting. Very Granular and able to be adjust to the unit perfectly...but...if we are doing it unit by unit then...why not just...you know...put the costs back onto the datasheets? Maybe only for Codex Datasheets but if each unit has a unique points cost and costing for gear then why not just put them back onto their datasheet...just saying...like we went full circle with it!

 

Not to mention the way other units would chose gear was based on lists much like back in 3rd and from there on a list was always given for characters. Was it a problem? No.

 

As for the model company first argument: GW would sell not even a FRACTION of the models they do now without the games that go with the models. As much as they are a model company, the games are what drive sales and a want for the models. Thus it is in their best interest to make interesting rules, good rules and balanced rules. A game that lasts and people can enjoy for ages will profit them greatly.

I would point out that some games are still holding a legacy due to good community support and systems. Elder Scrolls Skyrim is carried by mods and even the older Elder scrolls such as Morrowind still have a thriving community due to the ability of the community to add and make the game what it is. We have even seen in recent news that the beta tests for Rollback netcode for various fighting games well over 10 (and even 20 years I believe) old just suddenly skyrocket in player count and sales despite seeing no other news in recent times which shows how powerful having a strong community support element.

 

A game is nothing without community and if GW does not respect the games that ultimately drive the sales of models, they will sell no models and die.

 

Addition for the response from Black Blow Fly: Gee, that is a great question and something we would all love to know. Maybe if they did something to allow the community to know and understand their methods, almost like...communicating and talking. "Silencing a man does not stop the truth. It only proves you have something to hide". There is no reason for radio silence, especially during these times and is in fact more so important than ever. They are more than able with how quick I get e-mails and notifications about how "we are still making models" but when we ask questions, they cherry pick.

 

I would point out that similarly, Arc System Works; the creator of Guilty Gear franchise and currently creating Guilty Gear Strive have gone through multiple Betas and have not only been responsive to community feedback but their articles of answering community questions have been packed with not only actual tough community questions they opted to answer but they also gave decent answers and has seen company confidence from consumers rise. There are reasons to keep some things hush, like awesome projects that are soon to be revealed but when asked about very serious matters that the community has wanted answers for now over the course of not just 8th but continues into 9th; it is questionable as to what you have behind your back. If it is flowers, little reason to hide it unless you are holding an axe.

The model company thing is less of an argument and more of a statement directly from them IIRC. And I don't disagree at all that the rules help drive sales, that was the whole idea behind my post. I simply wish there was a better way to inspire them to invest more into this dept. Because it has become clear they don't as much as they should. For some reason. And while this may be anecdotal, I thought I even heard that even with outside playtester sources, GW has outright ignored some issues that clearly needed attending.  

 

I used to think there was more or less a "plan" when it came to selling models. While I cannot see the actual sales figures, we used to see a little bit of a pattern in that new models usually seemed fairly decent to too good. Usually not the other way, but it does happen. With the recent necron release, this methodology is shot down and feels more like choices decided from throwing darts at a dart board. Many new necron units seem lackluster and while I fully admit that I could be wrong and it's only something I've seen in my area, but I don't necessarily see monoliths, hexmarks, and lokhust heavy destroyers flying off the shelves, other than for the sake that the models are pretty. I would have at least expected the monolith to have a couple more surprises to help sell well. At least they are not the other direction and completely OP? Those doomstalkers and tomb spyders...phew..good luck finding those. 

 

As a side note, has no one else noted how much narrative has been gutted from the 9th edition codex's? I can only speak for necrons, but with the amount of new stuff, there is hardly anything. The page-long unit descriptions are gone, and so are the pages with interactions with other races/armies. Feels like GW is cutting cost in this area too? 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Ahzek451

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you listen to their voxcasts you can learn quite a bit about the company and by their practices are such.

[Lord Raven 19]

...little reason to hide it unless you are holding an axe.

They're not, Primaris Ultramarines can't take axes.

[Bryan Blaire]

Unfortunately it hasn't been GW's corporate culture to do a lot of communication with the community except one way, such as through their official statements like on Warhammer Community. You can tell that they are resistant to too much community questioning and are very adverse to negative commentary. Even the VoxCasts, while interesting and giving some insights, are very controlled and don't actually have any community involvement in them. It's not something that builds a lot of faith in the company that they are truly being honest with the community. Then you get the permanent water carriers for the company who, if they aren't on the payroll, probably should be given the amount of shilling and white knighting for the company they do, which isn't a help in the community either - they provide no answers either.

 

Unfortunately GW isn't going to be very honest with the community about their legal situations, but when it is public and things get asked, they end up answering so vaguely as to practically be worse than if they just hadn't answered in the first place. It also doesn't help when people misinterpret actual legal proceedings and misrepresent them.

 

Something that would be really interesting for GW to do would be to provide the results of the various community surveys, with as much openness as possible (sanitized for language, etc.) - if they use statistics, or do grouping, it wouldn't be quite a beneficial to see how the community that cares to respond really views what's going on. I realize the chance of something like that is basically non-existent. Right now, I feel like they are basically using it to do self-confirmation of the community "wanting" what their folks want to actually produce - I know that I don't have a lot of faith that they are actually using the surveys to change things. It would be nice to believe it, but GW hasn't produced anything that makes me really feel they are actually doing it that way.

 

I do realize that GW probably doesn't care about any particular views, as long as people keep buying their stuff. I'm not sure how you change that without specifically cutting them off, but given the pace of sales, that's likely more a "me cutting off from them" than there ever will be a "us cutting them off" situation - given than I still enjoy a majority (as in more than 50%) of the offerings from the company, I haven't hit my threshold to walk away from it just yet.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Bryan if everything you said is true then is there any point really ? I think geedub does care and tries to incorporate the desires of the community.

[chapter master 454]

 

...little reason to hide it unless you are holding an axe.

They're not, Primaris Ultramarines can't take axes.

 

 

Curses...Suppose I will have to just use their Tome Keeper chapter Special Character then ;)

[NovemberIX]

You can’t reasonable expect gw to support models indefinitely ,

GW has stated they want to be the Ferrari of miniature games. I could rock up tomorrow at my local Ferrari Dealership in a 308 older than I am and they would still service the vehicle and source replacement parts if needed.  I'd hazard to say keeping up with a product that helps make them money shouldn't be much harder than that.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That’s comparing apples to oranges at best.

[Bryan Blaire]

GW has stated they want to be the Ferrari of miniature games. I could rock up tomorrow at my local Ferrari Dealership in a 308 older than I am and they would still service the vehicle and source replacement parts if needed. I'd hazard to say keeping up with a product that helps make them money shouldn't be much harder than that.

No doubt if you paid them for it, they'd even be able to find you ways to incorporate and update engine parts and possibly even some body features to get you some of the latest gadgets (you know, like how we pay GW for Codexes to use products we bought from GW).

 

Luxury products tend to like supporting customers, because word of mouth is a great way to get new customers. When there's a lack of support, bad word of mouth builds, and then the company doesn't expand as much as it could, etc.

[The Yncarne]

My main complaints of recent corporate behavior are:

• removing the Books/e-Pub option
• requiring hardcopy purchases to unlock the app's version of the codex
• app design (from my initial impressions)
• having to buy the rulebook for crusade rules while getting the matched play rules and core rules in the GT book
• slim pickings for ~5 years for my factions' models and unit options

I've lived through editions of "all marines, all the time" and I'll live through this one though I hope it isn't a whole edition lifecycle.

[Lexington]

First we need to know why they don’t/don’t want to.

 

Depending on how you choose to view it, they don't want to add any customization beyond what's on the shelves because either

• They don't want anything in a Codex that you can't buy in a store, or
• They don't want to give any opportunities to 3rd party bits makers

I've heard both from reliably connected sorts, and it's likely that there's multiple "real" answers to the question. What's clear is that the lack of customization has nothing to do with the game in and of itself. In fact, as we get further into the "New GW" era, I think it's much more useful to view their games less and less as actual games, and more as interactive marketing efforts that kind of look like games, but with mechanics that are motivated more by sales funnels than by actual game design concerns. Now, I'm sure at this point some deeply insightful people are just itching to explain that it's always been that way, and that's true to an extent, but that extent has changed pretty radically over the last several years. I think the player base should act on that fact accordingly.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

My main complaints of recent corporate behavior are:

 

• removing the Books/e-Pub option
• requiring hardcopy purchases to unlock the app's version of the codex
• app design (from my initial impressions)
• having to buy the rulebook for crusade rules while getting the matched play rules and core rules in the GT book
• slim pickings for ~5 years for my factions' models and unit options

I've lived through editions of "all marines, all the time" and I'll live through this one though I hope it isn't a whole edition lifecycle.

Hang in there soldier.

 

First we need to know why they don’t/don’t want to.

 

 

Depending on how you choose to view it, they don't want to add any customization beyond what's on the shelves because either

• They don't want anything in a Codex that you can't buy in a store, or
• They don't want to give any opportunities to 3rd party bits makers

I've heard both from reliably connected sorts, and it's likely that there's multiple "real" answers to the question. What's clear is that the lack of customization has nothing to do with the game in and of itself. In fact, as we get further into the "New GW" era, I think it's much more useful to view their games less and less as actual games, and more as interactive marketing efforts that kind of look like games, but with mechanics that are motivated more by sales funnels than by actual game design concerns. Now, I'm sure at this point some deeply insightful people are just itching to explain that it's always been that way, and that's true to an extent, but that extent has changed pretty radically over the last several years. I think the player base should act on that fact accordingly.

Actually we know they can do customization for Primaris due to chapter blisters they have released.

[Lexington]

 

Depending on how you choose to view it, they don't want to add any customization beyond what's on the shelves [...]

Actually we know they can do customization for Primaris due to chapter blisters they have released.

 

We're operating from very different definitions of "what's on the shelves," apparently. 

[NovemberIX]

That’s comparing apples to oranges at best.

I'd call it comparing one company to another company they want to emulate. At the end of the day, they are both corporations that manufacture an unnecessary but enjoyable product. If there's one point about support I wanna make it's this, Legends is great, and I'm glad it exists as a stopgap, but what about the things that don't make it into legends? The Land Raider Ares? Razor Back Rikarious? Badab War units? Apoc formations? Siege Dreadnoughts?! IF GW keeps this way, at some point it ends up like back when Enzo's service department annoyed Ferruccio into making more than just tractors. Let's just hope I haven't walk away before then.

 

 

No doubt if you paid them for it, they'd even be able to find you ways to incorporate and update engine parts and possibly even some body features to get you some of the latest gadgets (you know, like how we pay GW for Codexes to use products we bought from GW).

Luxury products tend to like supporting customers, because word of mouth is a great way to get new customers. When there's a lack of support, bad word of mouth builds, and then the company doesn't expand as much as it could, etc.

Continuing to stretch the automotive analogy,  Jaguar now offers drop in electric motors to modernize the classic 1960's E-types, that's the kinda thing I want outta GW, just ongoing support, but I admit it would be cool if GW had a Special Projects division and Henry Cavill asked them to cast his Custodes out of pure gold cause he feels the same way about painting we all do :D

 

One last automotive related tangent, most brands have a halo car that is an aspirational goal and supposed to inspire buyers to their products, I think it's pretty clear Imperials have the biggest aspiration goal right now with the Warlord Titans, but what equivalent is there for Xenos?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I would never compare geedub to an automotive manufacturer that is an equation for disaster. Also a lot of people can afford plastic minis but not Uber expensive sports cars.

[MegaVolt87]

I would never compare geedub to an automotive manufacturer that is an equation for disaster. Also a lot of people can afford plastic minis but not Uber expensive sports cars.

Actually, GW is more like Mercedes Benz. Plastics are C class and up, FW are AMG/ S class in terms of asperations. There is no denying GW considers themselves as a premium brand such as Merc/ Ferrari etc. Their pricing model is definitely prestige pricing, not average joe consumer pricing model.