GW and their recent approaches

[Cpt_Reaper]

I may have forgotten that survey was a thing. Again, when a company does a survey and they don't make a statement soon after discussing the results of said survey i find little reason to trust it wasn't a waste of time.

 

Did GW make a statement about the results?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I can’t remember but IMO they wouldn’t have put so much effort into it otherwise.

 

Let me ask you what will happen to Grey Knights if geedub decides to suddenly abandon firstborn ?

[Cpt_Reaper]

Until such a time as Primaris Grey Knights are created, nothing. Grey Knights are an odd case in that they are Astares, but aren't Space Marines per se. They have power armour and bolters, but are so vastly different as to be essentially not Space Marines, else they would be a supplement for Codex Space Marines.

 

I do hope that made sense in writing as it does in my head.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Why aren’t they Space Marines ?

[Cpt_Reaper]

They are Astartes, but not necessarily Space Marines. This is from a purely mechanical viewpoint rather than a fluff viewpoint, but that's not to say neither can be influenced by the other.

 

Grey Knights have bolters and power armour. That is where they stop being Space Marines. They do not have any squads or units used by Space Marines except for Stormravens, Land Raiders and Rhinos, and every single unit is Psychic in some manner. Not to mention their focus on anti-daemon and anti-Chaos rules.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

 If we resorted to fan-made rules and models the game WILL die. The community couldn't make a ruleset that pleases anyone.

Laughs in Battlefleet Gothic and Battlefleet Heresy resurgence and revival internationally

 

A game that hasn't had any official support in over 10 years, and closer to 15 years of no support in reality.

 

 

 

I highly doubt geedub will drop firstborn any time soon and to say so is purely hearsay .

 

Even if they are not, GW are not behaving in a way that shows it. Too many little things are piling up that say otherwise rightly or wrongly. Rubiconed characters completely replace their first born iterations both in model and rules, 1:1 equivalents of units eg. predator/gladiator and no new first born SM releases or re-sculpts for a long time. The OG firstborn chaplain on bike could have gotten a re-sculpt, instead it's model was discontinued, it went to legends and we got a primaris chaplain on bike instead. Everyone loves chaplins, a re-sculpted old marine one would have sold just as well, both could have been easily accommodated but they were not. Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern- and we have exceeded three separate instances of this trend happening at this point. Even if old marines never get the axe as you say, there is enough going on to make people nervous and that is a solid truth. 

 

All of this. You're completely spot on with the pattern. I understand if people were making the argument prior, but they just released the replacements for old speeders and old predator tanks. All that's really left is drop pods. 

 

 

I highly doubt geedub will drop firstborn any time soon and to say so is purely hearsay .

 

 Even if old marines never get the axe as you say, there is enough going on to make people nervous and that is a solid truth. 

 

 

 

Actions speak louder than words. When's the last time we saw a community article that featured artwork and photography of Firstborn, eh?

Edited November 18, 2020 by Hungry Nostraman Lizard

[Cpt_Reaper]

 

 If we resorted to fan-made rules and models the game WILL die. The community couldn't make a ruleset that pleases anyone.

Laughs in Battlefleet Gothic and Battlefleet Heresy resurgence and revival internationally

 

A game that hasn't had any official support in over 10 years, and closer to 15 years of no support in reality.

Not to sound conflictive for the sake of conflict, but is that because BFG is a smaller, tight knit community with closer beleief as to how it should be done, because the fan rules are that good or because after 10-15 years of no content that fanbase takes whatever is available?

 

40k is a much larger community that contains way different ideas as to "how it should be done". Ask members of this very board if they are for or against an alternatig activation in 40k and you will see a very heated argument.

[chapter master 454]

 

An informed opinion is just that and wow this has gone super OT.... bring out your rants here lol !

 

I see more along the lines of conductive discussion and argument/ counter argument. Its clear someone is still only contributing snappy one liners to such discussions of limited value to the OT (original topic) itself. I wonder who that is. 

 

 

While I agree with the point made here, lets remember the thread is on a thread with mods as I was rather bold to make such a topic. Broadsiding another member ain't a good idea.

 

The purpose of this thread in total is something I feel is needed; a controlled zone where we can try and express our negatives opinions on a matter and have them bounced around, challenged and see if we can find new ground somewhere to help ourselves forward. There has been far too much soiled and sullen moments spanning from 8th to now the start of 9th and while I agree open hostile venting isn't good, constructive venting is. I don't want this thread to become meagre bickering, I want expanded conversation somewhere where it won't de-rail threads, close threads or even see members getting disciplined for less than gentlemen conduct.

 

Primaris are an odd duck. To refute Cpt_Reaper real quick: the two new chaplain models that firstborns got actually are new sculpts. While limited in their release, they are new and unique. This is a counter-point that can be struck against firstborn being axed.

Further to that, as I stated elsewhere during my conversation with a manager; he was struggling to sell primaris but was selling firstborn by the shop full. Intercessors? Got 'em. Hellblasters? He's got 3 easy and then some. Tactical squads? one box left. Devastators? none. Heck, even the new "hotness" of the invader was still in stock with no concern. People are voting with their wallets in places and while one shop a country does not make, I doubt it would be isolated and unique especially considering some frater feelings here. GW will see the charts and may of originally planned to replace firstborns but they are now having to backtrack that and maybe axe the axing. At first, it wasn't a question; why else bring over the characters. But now? Firstborn are selling like hot-cakes and only select few primaris sell and even then, only sell for a little while.

 

I am one of the doomsayers and here I am, placing evidence against it. Knock my argument my brothers, that's the point of a debate!

 

But remember, there are other matters too. Do not get tunnelled in on one thing and get bogged and mired in Primaris doomsaying, what approaches could be taken, any alternatives we haven't thought of? Anything that may be under the radar someone wants to bring up?

 

To state this: This isn't a golden age. This is a tipping point. It will ether enter a golden age or plummet to darkness. GW will ultimately of decided which way it will go in their eyes, however that isn't for them to decide now is it?

[Cpt_Reaper]

I do prefer to be wrong when it comes to my negativity. I have been wrong on predictions in the past, but with the way things are going I have yet been proven wrong, only given fuel for my negatice predictions. That's not to say I have been proven right however.

 

I like to think I want what other's will enjoy. Full creative freedom with my toy soldiers. Some may use that to make META builds like Smash Captains, but that is their choice to make just like it is my choice to bring my Characters to life on the tabletop.

 

Whether Imperial, Heretic or Xenos I just want everyone to be able to have the same freedom in their list building and narrative creation. And I mean having freedom of choice, not freedom to use predetermined loadouts for their units.

[Volt]

Volt, I do not beleive that is the correct course of action. Moreso I do not feel that is the morally right course of action. I do not want to cut GW out of their product until we have given them a chance to fix their practices. Warhammer is their product, we are their customers.

 

If, after the community tells GW that we do not consider their actions to be in our best interest they state they will continue to act as such or do not reply at all then yes, we should stop supporting them wholesale.

 

Until that happens I find it at the very least quetionable how you can support such a course as you have suggested. If we resorted to fan-made rules and models the game WILL die. The community couldn't make a ruleset that pleases anyone.

No, Warhammer effectively belongs to nobody as a concept besides lipservice to specific IP trademarks, but IP law in general was stupid in the first place and antithetical to how art worked in most of human history. The game will not die if people resort to their own rules, it merely shrinks. But hobbies are effort driven in the first place, and if a game survives purely because of corporate inertia, screw it anyway. I'd rather a game with ten local players who are dedicated to it than a game with 100 local players who only play it because it's "in" and just follow whatever meta fad is "in" at the moment. Warhammer Epic for example is still very much alive despite being dead, purely because of the efforts of fans. Small certainly, but it's not gone. And that's true for every part of warhammer, there is no need for GW, it's just a convenience. Lore, models, rules, etc can all be community generated. It just requires some elbow grease.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Fan support for an out of print product is one thing. What you are advocating is essentially piracy. I can not support such a course of action because you have a belief that IP doesn't belong to someone. It does. End of story. Warhammer 40k is the property of Games Workshop. Saying anything else is wrong and probably borderline illegal.

 

As i've said to local players. If your codex is pirated and your models are recast you don't get a say in how the game is treated.

[Volt]

Fan support for an out of print product is one thing. What you are advocating is essentially piracy.

Nope, completely legal under fair use laws provided you do not start marketing copyrighted models. GW themselves are nothing more than thieves who pilfered and plagiarized prior works and concepts ("Eldar" lol) so any degree of respect goes out the window in the first place, and nothing about the space marine besides specific symbols, chapters, and characters are copyrighted. You can 100% just go start minting out a bunch of 'Space Warriors' you designed yourself originally with all of the tropes of power armor and never get legally slapped, see Kromlech and others. Because the ideas are so hopelessly generic they are literally impossible to own under law.

 

 

 

I can not support such a course of action because you have a belief that IP doesn't belong to someone. It does. End of story.

Because of stupid modern laws driven by corporations bloated on avarice, and functionally can be maneuvered around with zero risk to yourself, so there's not really a point to give a damn in the first place unless you're literally making recasts. But no, at the end of the day nobody actually owns the concepts of the God Emperor, Space Marines, or Space Elves, because not only are they hopelessly generic, GW didn't even come up with them. And from a perspective of ethics, the entire idea of owning fictional concepts is logically bankrupt and a bizarre product of recent history and literally antithetical to how human art works (community driven processing of a piece across generations of refinement, giving us wondrous works such as the Iliad, the Poetic Edda, or the Arthurian Tradition).

 

 

 

Warhammer 40k is the property of Games Workshop. Saying anything else is wrong and probably borderline illegal.

 

As i've said to local players. If your codex is pirated and your models are recast you don't get a say in how the game is treated.

Which is nothing more than repeating a line of slavish loyalty to an uncaring company that doesn't give a damn about your life, the hobby, the game, or the story. Literally. It just exists to make money by whatever means possible, and the only commendable thing about GW is their actions of not dodging taxes by offshoring and not exporting jobs from Nottingham. But in terms of the game, you're wrong because they objectively do have a say in how the game is treated, as they're playing it by whatever means they deem necessary - they still are players. And all you need to do at the end of the day is just do what GW did to the people it ripped its ideas off from shamelessly - just file off the names here and there and hey presto, you're now playing Grimdark Posthuman Future, legally totally not Warhammer, while having all of the Warhammer you want, with all of the same factions. Because at the end of the day like how GW learned the hard way, you can't actually copyright base concepts and tropes.

 

Actually to go further, you're behaving exactly as how I've identified over multiple threads about one of the core problems of 40k. Namely, that despite identifying many problems with Games Workshop, you don't actually take steps to do anything about, and are phobic about the very concept, with nebulous waffling about the law (when that is quite literally not a concern as GW has been slapped for specifically trying to prevent this). The entire community could, at any given day just say "you know what we don't need a company" and just literally do everything themselves. But they never do, instead issuing endless complaints about GW for years, the company of course never actually changing in function, and the fans never ceasing to make the same complaints. So what's the next step of the grand plan? An angrily worded letter suddenly makes the price gouging go away? The bad balance? The lack of model support? The bad writing? You could, tomorrow just cast off any ties to Games Workshop and communally source everything, we all could - It's that simple. And it's certainly a more productive option than echoing complaints that been a mantra of the community for longer than some players have been alive.

 

I'm not saying you don't have to hate GW, but if you actually spend any amount of time complaining about GW, simply sitting around and complaining instead of actually taking action is a pretty dumb waste of time compared to actually doing something about it. We've identified problems, and been identifying problems for decades. So maybe instead of sitting on our arses, we could actually pool all our grievances and problems and do something about it instead of sitting in the same situation airing the same complains ad nauseam. Of course this philosophy applies to all things in life, but I find making a community ruleset to be easier than organizing a new political party to end world hunger.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Volt

[MegaVolt87]

Hobby wise, the contrast release was a good one along with the new associated painting guides. However its about time more technical paints are added to the line, like a return of those much harder ink washes we used to have. A metallics re-vamp of existing paints would be welcome, retributor armour and stormhost silver are apparently considered a higher end metallic paint in the range but I am not really convinced. I think its also very recent the heavy metal team switched to using 100% GW paints for studio models/ box art. Nothing more annoying than following an official guide and still unable to replicate the displayed result, a constant pain for people who paint that way. Probably some videos around too from pro's that can't match the GW result following the guide because its actually missing steps/ colours etc. The recent necron vids come to mind, could be wrong, but to me it looks like the end and beginning "battle ready" paint jobs are quite different on the models before they "add" the extra steps to "parade ready". Citadel painting app feels like a wasted concept right now, its not really updated or maintained- maybe because its free?, no idea why its not being used more. 

[Rik Lightstar]

Hobby wise, the contrast release was a good one along with the new associated painting guides. However its about time more technical paints are added to the line, like a return of those much harder ink washes we used to have. A metallics re-vamp of existing paints would be welcome, retributor armour and stormhost silver are apparently considered a higher end metallic paint in the range but I am not really convinced. I think its also very recent the heavy metal team switched to using 100% GW paints for studio models/ box art. Nothing more annoying than following an official guide and still unable to replicate the displayed result, a constant pain for people who paint that way. Probably some videos around too from pro's that can't match the GW result following the guide because its actually missing steps/ colours etc. The recent necron vids come to mind, could be wrong, but to me it looks like the end and beginning "battle ready" paint jobs are quite different on the models before they "add" the extra steps to "parade ready". Citadel painting app feels like a wasted concept right now, its not really updated or maintained- maybe because its free?, no idea why its not being used more.

I'm friends with 2 ex studio painters and both have said that they have only ever used current GW paint ranges at when they've worked there.

 

One of them is pretty active in the Eavier Metal Facebook group and frequently tells people what colours or combinations he used to achieve different effects on stuff that was 25 years ago.

 

Darren Latham is also very open on Instagram and says he uses exclusively GW paints for his work stuff.

 

Rik

[Robbienw]

 

 

 

I highly doubt geedub will drop firstborn any time soon and to say so is purely hearsay .

 

 Even if old marines never get the axe as you say, there is enough going on to make people nervous and that is a solid truth. 

 

 

 

Actions speak louder than words. When's the last time we saw a community article that featured artwork and photography of Firstborn, eh?

 

 

The answer to this is...very recently :lol:

 

The perception that GW don't show art and pictures of classic marines in codices and warcom articles is a false one.  Of course newer stuff often gets put front and centre, but that is not new or exclusive to space marines as a faction.

 

Classic marines are here to stay guys.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The cover of the SW supplement is plastered with terminators.

 

BA one is covered in Sanguinary guard.

 

So really, really recently.

[Dark Shepherd]

Releasing upscaled versions of classic marine range would make them a TONNE of money, thats what theyll do

[Evil Eye]

Not going to make a massive quote pyramid from a few pages ago, but honestly, if a group doesn't allow Legends at all, the problem isn't with GW- it's with the group. There is literally no reason not to allow them in regular games, whatsoever. The whole point was to avoid people being left with unusable models, and it's not like the rules are actually any different from any other datasheet. So yeah, it sucks hardcore if your group doesn't allow Legends, but it isn't GW's fault if they present solutions and people willingly choose not to use them.

 

That said...

 

Releasing upscaled versions of classic marine range would make them a TONNE of money, thats what theyll do , obviously at inflated prices

For the survey, IIRC the first year it was done they released some results or a warcom article on them at least

Exactly this. Why do away with over half of their best-selling range and permanently alienate a tonne of customers when they can make a load of new products, sell loads of those and then redo the entire Space Marine infantry range in a new scale (presumably the same height as the new CSMs) and sell a whole load MORE product, including people who feel the need to rebuy their collection in the new scale? GW has made some absolute howlers in the past, but I don't think even they would miss an opportunity like that- "Remember those old Marines? Well they're new again! Buy them please!". It might not be immediate, but mark my words it will happen. Heck, if they're resurrecting an entire game system (WHFB) after officially squatting it, the chances of them not revisiting their most iconic range in the future are basically nil.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Also Grey Knights are definitely Space Marines.

[Bryan Blaire]

...honestly, if a group doesn't allow Legends at all, the problem isn't with GW- it's with the group. There is literally no reason not to allow them in regular games, whatsoever. The whole point was to avoid people being left with unusable models, and it's not like the rules are actually any different from any other datasheet. So yeah, it sucks hardcore if your group doesn't allow Legends, but it isn't GW's fault if they present solutions and people willingly choose not to use them.

GW writes the official rules - so yes, the blame can only officially be laid at the feet of GW.

 

They don't get to pass off blame for writing things that only they can write.

 

Groups that want to play only the Codexes for game play, whether for competitive reasons or other reasons, that's perfectly in line with the official rules that GW wrote.

 

If GW really wanted all those "Legends" models to still see universal play, they would have put them in the one place that is universally accepted for game play - the Codex. Otherwise, they are the equivalent of a White Dwarf article - absolutely optional.

 

People are well within their gaming rights to decide not to use them, similar to deciding to house rule options for weapons. I know that I, as a player, haven't downloaded any Legends material (I guess they are like an Errata, posted online somewhere?) and haven't gone looking for them - I won't bother building with those rules. I won't necessarily prevent others from using them, as long as they don't end up way out of whack based on a quick review at game table side prior to starting a game, but I'm not going to bother continuing to use or building from the Legends rules.

 

That's GW's fault for officially writing something - literally. They are the only official source. They could have easily made a different official, universal decision. They did not do that.

 

Heck, if they're resurrecting an entire game system (WHFB) after officially squatting it, the chances of them not revisiting their most iconic range in the future are basically nil.

:lol:

 

It's a bit early to say much of anything about Warhammer: The Old World - the announcement didn't actually say which part of the company is going to release it. They do keep writing that the Old World is akin to the Horus Heresy - so there's a chance that it will be released in the same format Horus Heresy is released - ForgeWorld.

 

If that's what happens, and you are happy the Horus Heresy is a completely separate game entity and the support it receives, then would you be happy with GW completely separating all the classic Marine stuff and only supporting it in the Heresy format going forward? Because that's what may happen with the Old World.

 

So all the classic Marine stuff pre-MkX armor, Primaris, the Cicatrix Maledictum - all that stuff becomes "the Old 'Verse" and only sees support from FW. Is that what you are predicting as a "re-visit"? Because GW hasn't actually said how the Old World is coming out and will see support - so you can't actually tout it as solid support for a re-visit of the classic Marine line yet.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

 

 

Primaris are an odd duck. To refute Cpt_Reaper real quick: the two new chaplain models that firstborns got actually are new sculpts. While limited in their release, they are new and unique. This is a counter-point that can be struck against firstborn being axed.

 

Further to that, as I stated elsewhere during my conversation with a manager; he was struggling to sell primaris but was selling firstborn by the shop full. Intercessors? Got 'em. Hellblasters? He's got 3 easy and then some. Tactical squads? one box left. Devastators? none. Heck, even the new "hotness" of the invader was still in stock with no concern. People are voting with their wallets in places and while one shop a country does not make, I doubt it would be isolated and unique especially considering some frater feelings here. GW will see the charts and may of originally planned to replace firstborns but they are now having to backtrack that and maybe axe the axing. At first, it wasn't a question; why else bring over the characters. But now? Firstborn are selling like hot-cakes and only select few primaris sell and even then, only sell for a little while.

 

I am one of the doomsayers and here I am, placing evidence against it. Knock my argument my brothers, that's the point of a debate!

 

 

 

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but to bring it back to neutral, limited release doesn't exactly mean it's on the broad market and available to everyone, yeah? It was nice to see those Termie Chaplains. You can only get one at a store opening, and the other was a week limited special, I believe. It's cool to see Space Marine Firstborn getting *something* model wise. I'm upset that the Space Marine heroes 3 was Nurgle, by god we've had enough NURGLE. Here I was, hoping for upscaled and designed Scouts, or Assault-marines. In not-Ultramarine colors. 

 

 

 

 If we resorted to fan-made rules and models the game WILL die. The community couldn't make a ruleset that pleases anyone.

Laughs in Battlefleet Gothic and Battlefleet Heresy resurgence and revival internationally

 

A game that hasn't had any official support in over 10 years, and closer to 15 years of no support in reality.

Not to sound conflictive for the sake of conflict, but is that because BFG is a smaller, tight knit community with closer beleief as to how it should be done, because the fan rules are that good or because after 10-15 years of no content that fanbase takes whatever is available?

 

40k is a much larger community that contains way different ideas as to "how it should be done". Ask members of this very board if they are for or against an alternatig activation in 40k and you will see a very heated argument.

 

What gives you the right to say it's a smaller community, eh? Do you play, then? Partake? Counter-point to it being small - there's many pages on socials that dedicate themselves soley to BFH and BFG. Prior to Covid - the NOVA Open had all their tickets for the BFH narrative event sold out. I think it was something like 40-60 tickets, if I recall? Heresy had about 6 slots left. 

 

What's alternate activation have to do with it? There is none in the core BFG rule set. 

 

Fan support for an out of print product is one thing. What you are advocating is essentially piracy. I can not support such a course of action because you have a belief that IP doesn't belong to someone. It does. End of story. Warhammer 40k is the property of Games Workshop. Saying anything else is wrong and probably borderline illegal.

 

As i've said to local players. If your codex is pirated and your models are recast you don't get a say in how the game is treated.

 

Now this brings it back to the subject - is it truly piracy if the stuff is discontinued? Space marine deathstorm pods? Legion torso upgrades? Mark 2 armor? For a while - the dreadnought drop pod was gone, just broken mold. The rules still existed, what are fans to do then? A more relative example - the Caestus Ram is still a very popular choice pick in a list - yet the model has been discontinued. 

 

Hobby wise, the contrast release was a good one along with the new associated painting guides. However its about time more technical paints are added to the line, like a return of those much harder ink washes we used to have. A metallics re-vamp of existing paints would be welcome, retributor armour and stormhost silver are apparently considered a higher end metallic paint in the range but I am not really convinced. I think its also very recent the heavy metal team switched to using 100% GW paints for studio models/ box art. Nothing more annoying than following an official guide and still unable to replicate the displayed result, a constant pain for people who paint that way. Probably some videos around too from pro's that can't match the GW result following the guide because its actually missing steps/ colours etc. The recent necron vids come to mind, could be wrong, but to me it looks like the end and beginning "battle ready" paint jobs are quite different on the models before they "add" the extra steps to "parade ready". Citadel painting app feels like a wasted concept right now, its not really updated or maintained- maybe because its free?, no idea why its not being used more. 

I use a lot of the contrast paints as glazes and for weathering. Very cool stuff, but I couldn't ever see myself painting something fully with just contrast. I agree with them bringing in more technical paints. Also, bring back your weathering powders you fools. I miss them. 

 

I'm 2,000% tired of the Eavy Metal style of painting. It feels weaker, old. 

 

 

 

 

 

I highly doubt geedub will drop firstborn any time soon and to say so is purely hearsay .

 

 Even if old marines never get the axe as you say, there is enough going on to make people nervous and that is a solid truth. 

 

 

 

Actions speak louder than words. When's the last time we saw a community article that featured artwork and photography of Firstborn, eh?

 

 

The answer to this is...very recently

 

The perception that GW don't show art and pictures of classic marines in codices and warcom articles is a false one.  Of course newer stuff often gets put front and centre, but that is not new or exclusive to space marines as a faction.

 

Classic marines are here to stay guys.

 

Have you flipped through the new marine codex? Almost all the "Action photography" features nothing but primaris. The only real photography of firstborn you get is on their datasheets... if that. 

[Evil Eye]

 

...honestly, if a group doesn't allow Legends at all, the problem isn't with GW- it's with the group. There is literally no reason not to allow them in regular games, whatsoever. The whole point was to avoid people being left with unusable models, and it's not like the rules are actually any different from any other datasheet. So yeah, it sucks hardcore if your group doesn't allow Legends, but it isn't GW's fault if they present solutions and people willingly choose not to use them.

GW writes the official rules - so yes, the blame can only officially be laid at the feet of GW.

 

They don't get to pass off blame for writing things that only they can write.

 

Groups that want to play only the Codexes for game play, whether for competitive reasons or other reasons, that's perfectly in line with the official rules that GW wrote.

 

If GW really wanted all those "Legends" models to still see universal play, they would have put them in the one place that is universally accepted for game play - the Codex. Otherwise, they are the equivalent of a White Dwarf article.

 

That's GW's fault for officially writing something - literally. They are the only official source. They could have easily made a different official, universal decision. They did not do that.

Huh? That's the same logic that lead to people insisting Forge World units weren't "real GW rules" and not allowing them, except arguably even more absurd because not only are these rules completely free, they're written by the main GW team! If the argument is "it's not printed in the Codex" then by the same book, FAQs aren't official either because they're put out after the fact. As for "It's the equivalent of a White Dwarf article", WD supplements are still official rules so that doesn't work as an argument either. Any rules published by GW through any medium are fair game unless GW says otherwise.

 

Yes, I would agree that it would have been better if they were still in the main book for convenience's sake (though I understand why they don't, to avoid confusion from newer players wondering where this unit that doesn't have a model is), but given that literally the ONLY thing separating Legends stuff from Codex units is the publication they're printed in (a free PDF as opposed to the physical Codex), there is no real reason to actually say "Legends are forbidden here" outside of the most anally retentive tournament environment. They're certainly not about to give anyone an unfair advantage. You can forbid Legends, but by the same logic you can forbid Primaris or Forge World or any other unit/faction/rules you don't like. But just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

This seems like the ultimate "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" conundrum. People want to play with models that no longer remain in production, so GW provides rules- for free, I might add- which can be used in any and all relevant army lists and any game type with the exception of some tournaments. If Legends aren't "universally accepted" then that is quite literally not GW's fault by definition. The Legends rules quite explicitly state that they're suitable for all games, and they have points values- not like we're talking PL-only shenanigans. GW can't social-engineer people to accept Legends; they're a model company, not a global conspiracy. At the end of the day, if GW publishes totally mainline-compatible rules for OOP models, outright states they can can be used for normal play and makes said rules openly available for no additional cost, there's nothing else they can do. I suppose you could argue they could put a section in the rulebook/Chapter Approved clarifying they are totally suitable for regular play, but that's about it. We as a community have agency and free will, and ultimately whether we allow Legends in our games is up to us. If the consensus is that Legends somehow don't belong in regular games (ludicrous as that would be) then the decision and responsibility lies with us as a community.

 

No it isn't ideal that OOP models aren't included by default in Codexes anymore, but I do understand the logic behind it, even if I disagree with it, and Legends as a solution is infinitely preferable to no rules at all.

 

(I take your point regarding WH:TOW though, even if I still 100% maintain that GW would be being unusually daft if they didn't take the opportunity in the future to revisit the Firstborn range for a "Look! Old thing is new again!" quick buck.)

[Bryan Blaire]

The literal (as in written in the book) reason people don't play with Legends, and it is a literally real reason is that it isn't in the Codex. There are people that play without FAQs/Errata as well. Official and optional are two different things. Yes, FW is optional too, no matter how official it is.

 

I get that you think it's daft, but that doesn't matter. It's literally (again, written) what GW did (well, technically what they didn't do).

 

They didn't put it in a Codex. Anything outside a Codex is often viewed as an option, doesn't matter how official, doesn't matter how much the opponent thinks it's daft. People can pick and choose what to play with. It's typically viewed a lot more poorly to eliminate portions of a Codex, but you can, and I think should - depending on game considerations (I certainly have proposed it, especially based on narrative time periods).

 

Heck, even in the rulebook, GW themselves writes "there is no right or wrong way to play", based on agreement between the opposing players. So even by GW's writings, you can't even claim that the players are wrong. ;)

 

People are also taking a dim view of Legends due to how GW has portrayed Legends through comments - they are making them available, but seem to have no real intent to support them like they will with other official materials, such as Codexes, other than seemingly making things available for use based on Day 1 of any new Edition of the game. That makes people like me consider that GW isn't really interested in supporting this material, so if they don't care that much, why should I care much?

 

Again, the "play exclusively and only the Codex" isn't how I prefer to play, I actually like house-rules and advocate for them regularly (sometimes just due to how bad the official rules are), just like I advocate for more creative freedom for models to play with - however, I do see the views of those who are straight Codex-only competitive players and don't limit my arguments to my preferences, especially when GW is dumb. I would always prefer and argue for more universal, officially written material from GW over "just have everyone decide to house-rule it" - that's the kind of social engineering that you can't do too.

 

Here's a "shocking" solution - what if GW just posted all the datasheets, regardless of current source, online for everyone to download, and didn't sell any of them in any kinds of publications. :teehee: If they were really good, they could easily use the Keyword system to formulate rules, and have those rules available in your main rulebook, which they could still force you to buy.

 

If all the datasheets were in a single source, available to everyone, then you'd have a really hard time arguing that this unit is optional over others, etc., and GW could still monetize things for themselves through the main rules, and campaign books, etc.

[Azekai]

...

Here's a "shocking" solution - what if GW just posted all the datasheets, regardless of current source, online for everyone to download, and didn't sell any of them in any kinds of publications. If they were really good, they could, easily use the Keyword system to formulate rules, and have those rules available in your main rulebook, which they could still force you to buy.

 

If all the datasheets were in a single source, available to everyone, then you'd have a really hard time arguing that this unit is optional over others, etc., and GW could still monetize things for themselves through the main rules, and campaign books, etc.

How do I report a mod for heresy? Can you censure yourself, please ? :P

 

[chapter master 454]

Part of the issue with legends is the dismissive tone with it. While someone can play with a model they love, it is never fun to play with a model you love that is missing its kneecaps because it is so old and outdated the rules just don't really work anymore. My Land Raider Excelsior and Rhino Primaris are models I love and enjoyed some of their different allowances of list building (having tank commanders in marines was fun) but they rapidly got nuked in various ways and now, can't even keep pace because their rules don't get updated, looked at or the points aren't kept in line.

Oh sure, you can keep playing with the models but...at that point really you are at the whim of your playgroup to allow it. What about someone like me whose play group is largely a more competitive environment, tournament players. They aren't die-hard rule lawyers or "Oh, you don't play top tier", if fact they often look to make the filthiest list possible from different things and within the armies they like which is something I enjoy but they aren't exactly going to want to practice or play against things like excelsiors because two reasons: it isn't fun to stomp and it isn't fun to be stomped.

Even if it was a irregular occurrence but just minor updates to legends would be nice, not asking for massive points overhauls or rule re-writes of entire datasheets but just minor bits of love here and there. If I wanted to play house rules the game, I would play Uno, Monopoly or Dungeons and Dragons :P 

 

Suppose that is my view there however. I am one of those people. However it comes from the fact that how can I trust someone else's rule writing when we can barely trust GW's?