9th Ed. Wishlist?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

4D3 exterminator autocannon with no grinding advance would be fine. It's the same as the Castigators twin autocannons. I'd leave it at damage 2 though, like the Castigator.

I wouldn't.

1 - the Castigator isn't taken because it comparatively sucks

2 - the Castigator is 160 points with 3 HBs and BS of 3 compared to a normal LRExterminator with BS of 4. Ya, we get T8 & 12W vs. T7 and 11W, but in 9th that really doesn't mean anything. We'd have to drop to ~140 points to be comparable to a tank that isn't taken, and I want the LRExterminator to be viable

3 - with the new GW recommended terrain layout (and the massive amount of terrain nowadays) and mission objectives, static gunlines are gone. You need to be able to move into position and DELETE something, because the next turn you can kiss your tank goodbye. If you haven't traded equally, you're losing the game.

 

The autocannon is supposed to be good against heavy infantry and light vehicles (T6/7, AV4/5ish), so I wouldn't use the Castigator as a reference, I'd use the AdMech Onager Dunecrawler (T7, 11W, 3+/5++) with Twin Heavy Phosphor Blaster (BS3 Heavy 8, S6 AP-2, D2) for 115 points as a baseline. Sad thing is, even the Dunecrawler isn't taken that much because the other options are better.

 

 

Running the Dunecrawler against a generic T6 4+ tank, we're looking for a median average of 4.0 damage, just to be comparable to a 115 point tank, not including the HBs, from 6 months ago. Codex creep means we should beat that, especially since AdMech aren't kings of the hill anymore.

 

with

- 8 shots at 2D: Median 2.0, Avg 2.6 (e.g. 1 shot hits, wounds and penetrates)

- 8 shots at 3D: Median 3.0, avg 4.0 (e.g. 1 shot hits, wounds and penetrates)

- 10 shots at 3D Median 6.0, Avg 5.0 (~2 shots)

 

 

So 8 shots a 3D barely brings us up to par with a tank that isn't taken. With all the ignore -1AP and -1D, anything 2D is really DOA nowadays. But I do agree on dropping the Grinding Advance, it cripples our already laughable shooting.

ive posted here before about a few special rules that could help out, that aren’t lethality upgrades to the guns, such as some sort of scout type move.

[jarms48]

 

Looking at the GSC Goliath, the Autocannon is unchanged, so a heavy bolter is better in every scenario except against a T7 model.  You're better off taking the Punisher.

against T6/3+ tank (at baseline, double the result for grinding advance):

- Punisher: median 1, Avg 1.1 dmg

- Exterminator: median 2, avg 1.3

 

 

The Goliath at the moment is actually a pretty decent model. Obviously next week it's going to change with the new codex but at the moment it's:

 

75 points for a twin autocannon and heavy stubber. Is open topped so models inside can shoot out, and can be upgraded to fire the equivilant of a close range battle cannon. It's certainly better than a Chimera or a Taurox. 

 

 

If you've noticed, we only play in the shooting phase, and lose the game in the 10 melee phases we do nothing in.  As soon as we're in melee, the game is over and we've lost.  That's why our TCs are the only thing holding our win rate, it's because they can pick up a unit, ANY unit, in 1 go (or at least cripple the target unit so they don't wipe us out). 

 

This isn't true, obsec spam is the other way to go. Pure infantry lists still do alright. Provided you're taking at least 18 infantry squads and/or spamming Cadian sentinels. This method of play just isn't fun at all. It's very time consuming.

 

18 10 model scion squads can be fun. HSLG's at least have a chance to do damage. 

 

 

 

So we have to have the firepower to overcome all of that, or just throw our army in the trash.  And 4 (even 8) shots from an AC won't even come close. 

 

As I said, I'd put money on Leman Russes lossing grinding advance. The best we can hope for the Exterminator 4D3 shots. That's an average of 8 shots. If we still get to keep some form of shot reroll, then the average goes up to about 10. That's better than 3 heavy bolters worth of shooting in the turret weapon. Yeah, -1 damage will kill its output but that's an issue with any D2 weapon. 

 

* * * * *

 

In other news, I made a wish list document on potentially making an Emperor's Fist Tank Company Army of Renown. It's with our current codex in mind and intended to be useable right now. 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rw9lvUIq56QZnMmz7RV7vGWSFn7dAeGZJiXsoXDFFw8/edit?usp=sharing

Edited January 7, 2022 by jarms48

[OldWherewolf]

Yes, tons of obsec bodies has some play, but nobody wants to play that, it's just a meme list.  It's not fun to play, and it's not fun to play against.  And we definitely don't want it to be the theme of the guard army.

 

Losing Grinding Advance is really a movement upgrade, and not a firepower upgrade, as I rarely move a TC more than 6", and our firepower would still be half of where it needs to be. 

 

With 8 shots from an AC we kill ONE model.  With 16 shots, we kill 2 models, or 3 intercessors including the 3xHBs.  Great, we just traded our 130-160 point tank for 60 points and didn't even kill what you were shooting at.  You just lost the game.  That's literally how bad we are right now.   That's literally trading at 50%, which is unsustainable.  Even a 55-point guard squad trades down against just about everything, and that's one of our cheapest units. 

 

A 120 point dakkajet does 4W on average, and it's all at 1D so it ignores -1D and doesn't have LOS issues, and it has ramshackle.  Even a 90 point squad of incubi kills 7 intercessors in 1 pass.  Why can't our 160 point tank do the same?  So comparing against incubi, that 160 point tank costs almost twice as much for half the output.  That's a minimum of 3x increase in lethality just to keep up with a 8 month old codex, probably 16 months by the time our codex comes out in Q3.  4-5x if you want to count that the incubi can do that twice in a game turn.  That's more than our Tank Commander!

 

At the micro (single model) scale, it doesn't seem that bad, it just seems like we just need a tweak or two.  But when you look at the IG army as a whole, 80% of our units are unplayable, and they all have the exact same problem.   We literally have 0 durability in 9th, with half the firepower of an updated codex, and usually cost more than equivalents.

 

We need to shift from static gunline to fire-and-maneuver.  The rules/orders we have in this thread get us the "maneuver" part.  But again, our firepower is so lacking because our units are based around a static gunline getting their points back over 4 turns.  Except units are removed in 1-2 turns.  So everywhere you look, we need a 2x increase in output just to bring us up to the current meta, not where we need to be in 6+ months when the next Marine codex comes out!

[jarms48]

 

Losing Grinding Advance is really a movement upgrade, and not a firepower upgrade, as I rarely move a TC more than 6", and our firepower would still be half of where it needs to be.

 

With 8 shots from an AC we kill ONE model. Great, we just traded our 130-160 point tank for 60 points and didn't even kill what you were shooting at.

This is what GW are moving towards if we like it or not. Every faction so far has lost their half move double shoot mechanic.

 

We just have to look at things like the Castigator to see what they're going to do with our vehicles.

 

As I said:

- Exterminator: Likely 4D3.

- Eradicator: Likely 3D3.

- Battle Cannon: D6 shots, but flat 3 damage.

- Demolisher Cannon: No idea, cause the Vindicator is still D6.

- Execution Plasma Cannon: D6 shots, but flat 2 damage on standard, flat 3 on overcharge.

- Punisher: Likely -1 AP.

- Vanquisher: Probably something similar to the Macharius Vanquisher or Railgun.

 

Is it what I want? No, not really but this is likely what GW will do.

Edited January 7, 2022 by jarms48

[OldWherewolf]

We're already at at 40% win rate. 

 

You can't play 9th with an army that can't move

You can't play 9th with an army that can't kill/trade appropriately

You can't play 9th with an army that can't move, can't kill/trade, and is 50% overcosted.

 

If we have to look at the Castigator to see what will become of our army, then we will be just like the Castigator: an unplayed meme.

[sairence]

Not that I want to tell you how to play your game mate, but it probably wouldn't be the worst idea to take a breather. You make Guard sound like the last trash. We can't compete with the top third of the field and we need a lot in a new Coxex...but we're not nearly as terrible or as toothless as you make it out.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I got it, a fluffy rule to make exterminators damn near an auto take.

ObSec and an extra 2” movement to represent its fluff as a faster Russ, and a reconnaissance tank.

 

Who can pass up a T8 obsec unit with over 10W for guard?

[OldWherewolf]

I got it, a fluffy rule to make exterminators damn near an auto take.

ObSec and an extra 2” movement to represent its fluff as a faster Russ, and a reconnaissance tank.

 

I like it :-)

 

I want to take this discussion in a different direction now.  I was watching the recap of Tabletop Titans, and something they said hit me, making me want to change our playstyle entirely.  Yes we still need to be fire-and-maneuver, but the key comment they made was "AdMech and Tau have a very non-interactive playstyle" (which is the same as us): If our opponent gets to us, we lose, otherwise we win, end of story.  That is  our barrier to a fun & effective game that needs to change

 

So let's change that.   Let's keep our flavor, but make us more interactive.  Off the top of my head, maybe something along these lines

• drop Get Back in the Fight / Back Pedal / Fix Bayonets and the Defensive gunners strat and Grinding Advance
• new order:  Defend Yourselves! (lasts until your next command phase)   Infantry can shoot with their weapons in melee rather than fight with a bayonet (a-la old True Grit).  Tanks can shoot non-blast weapons in engagement range without the -1 hit penalty.  Turret weapons can still fire at units not in engagement range during our shooting phase, even if there is a unit within engagement range.
• Units not given "Defend Yourselves!"  can shoot twice in the shooting phase (drop FRFSRF), but uses their normal attacks against models in engagement range.

This changes us dramatically

• opponents can't just tag a tank anymore, they either kill it, or it's still murdering them.  It makes consolidating into a tank an actual decision
• we don't have to increase our overall firepower by 3x/4x/5x, we can probably be in the 1.5x range, since we'll interact in 2 more phases
• It would be funny and fluffy as hell to give a Leman Russ "Defend Yourself", have it fire once in shooting, charge your opponent, then shoot in each of the next 2 melee phases. 
• It buffs our ranged firepower, without having to be excessive.

Now our tanks want to charge into melee, our infantry can at least consider it, and forces our opponents to have to choose between staying in melee with a Hellhound that explodes on a 4+ and getting shot, or taking the falling back penalty.  And if they can't damage a Leman Russ, then getting into melee is a boon for us!

 

Then if we have a stratagem like "Hose Them" (can fire Str 5 & lower weapons against a unit in engagement range with a tank), we just turned the guard army from "I'm trapped in here with you" to "you're trapped in here with ME!" 

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I got it, a fluffy rule to make exterminators damn near an auto take.

ObSec and an extra 2” movement to represent its fluff as a faster Russ, and a reconnaissance tank.

I like it :-)

 

I want to take this discussion in a different direction now. I was watching the recap of Tabletop Titans, and something they said hit me, making me want to change our playstyle entirely. Yes we still need to be fire-and-maneuver, but the key comment they made was "AdMech and Tau have a very non-interactive playstyle" (which is the same as us): If our opponent gets to us, we lose, otherwise we win, end of story. That is our barrier to a fun & effective game that needs to change

 

So let's change that. Let's keep our flavor, but make us more interactive. Off the top of my head, maybe something along these lines

• drop Get Back in the Fight / Back Pedal / Fix Bayonets and the Defensive gunners strat and Grinding Advance
• new order: Defend Yourselves! (lasts until your next command phase) Infantry can shoot with their weapons in melee rather than fight with a bayonet (a-la old True Grit). Tanks can shoot non-blast weapons in engagement range without the -1 hit penalty. Turret weapons can still fire at units not in engagement range during our shooting phase, even if there is a unit within engagement range.
• Units not given "Defend Yourselves!" can shoot twice in the shooting phase (drop FRFSRF), but uses their normal attacks against models in engagement range.

This changes us dramatically

• opponents can't just tag a tank anymore, they either kill it, or it's still murdering them. It makes consolidating into a tank an actual decision
• we don't have to increase our overall firepower by 3x/4x/5x, we can probably be in the 1.5x range, since we'll interact in 2 more phases
• It would be funny and fluffy as hell to give a Leman Russ "Defend Yourself", have it fire once in shooting, charge your opponent, then shoot in each of the next 2 melee phases.
• It buffs our ranged firepower, without having to be excessive.

Now our tanks want to charge into melee, our infantry can at least consider it, and forces our opponents to have to choose between staying in melee with a Hellhound that explodes on a 4+ and getting shot, or taking the falling back penalty. And if they can't damage a Leman Russ, then getting into melee is a boon for us!

 

Then if we have a stratagem like "Hose Them" (can fire Str 5 & lower weapons against a unit in engagement range with a tank), we just turned the guard army from "I'm trapped in here with you" to "you're trapped in here with ME!"

Well not to drag us back to the exterminator but your mention of tanks shooting during melee I guess the exterminator and punisher fill a niche to help counter melee armies that might try to tie up tanks in melee, since they can also shoot their turret weapons in melee

[Slave to Darkness]

Im unironically working on an all infantry army, loving it, and I know a few other people doing it too, its not a meme army.

[Diagramdude]

I like the theory of an all infantry army but not the physical requirements of playing it

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I like the theory of an all infantry army but not the physical requirements of playing it

bruh me too.

That’s sooo much damn painting

[Diagramdude]

Painting aside, it’s just a ton of model movement, even with move trays, and rolling literally dozens of dice per wound caused. In a competitive, clocked game you would honestly assess whether resolving lasgun fire is worth the rolling time.

[OldWherewolf]

It can be fun to play a meme list (like when in 3rd/4th edition I literally ran 100 space marines, 60 tac, 20 assault and 20ish devs).  But it's not what I want the core of the IG army to be.  I want to compete on a level playing field, and not just spend 3 hours picking up models.

[Slave to Darkness]

Shame we dont always get the army 'we' want, they should do it so meatshield lists are just as useable as other army builds, then Guard vs Guard match ups wont just be two people using the same netlist. :/ 

 

As for painting a horde army, fun to play as, crap to paint... Im so bored of grey. :lol: 

[Slave to Darkness]

Painting aside, it’s just a ton of model movement, even with move trays, and rolling literally dozens of dice per wound caused. In a competitive, clocked game you would honestly assess whether resolving lasgun fire is worth the rolling time.

True, but competitive games are not the only way to play, and most people I know in real life dont care for competitive environments. Guess thats just down to GW, the only data they can gather thats accurate (ish) is from the tourny scene, and they are not representative of the whole player base.  

 

Other than my horde Guard Im building a Vet and Russ army, would be nice to use that successfully as well. I would love Assault squads to make a comeback, may be worthless against marines but would be great against tau and certain eldar. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Slave to Darkness

[Red_Shift]

It would be nice if gw did a tank upgrade sprue with a few extras. I’m thinking sentinel multimelta options, autocannon sponsoons for the russ and also chimera turret, conversion kit to turn russ into a rapier/tank destroyer. One sprue could fit in a lot of options that would get some extra use out of a lot of the IG range.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

It would be nice if gw did a tank upgrade sprue with a few extras. I’m thinking sentinel multimelta options, autocannon sponsoons for the russ and also chimera turret, conversion kit to turn russ into a rapier/tank destroyer. One sprue could fit in a lot of options that would get some extra use out of a lot of the IG range.

i just wish the upgrade sprue was put back in the vehicle kits instead of them milking us for more money.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

It would be nice if gw did a tank upgrade sprue with a few extras. I’m thinking sentinel multimelta options, autocannon sponsoons for the russ and also chimera turret, conversion kit to turn russ into a rapier/tank destroyer. One sprue could fit in a lot of options that would get some extra use out of a lot of the IG range.

i just wish the upgrade sprue was put back in the vehicle kits instead of them milking us for more money.

 

I did wonder why my Russ tanks didnt have them when the one I bought over ten years ago had one... All I wanted was Heavy Stubbers on the turrets. :'( 

[Phubar]

Having all heavy weapons available on all russ, sentinels and hellhoumd varianta would be nice as versatility could be a nice thing.

So we can decide to have a cheap, a fast and a durable option for delivering the weapon that we need.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

It would be nice if gw did a tank upgrade sprue with a few extras. I’m thinking sentinel multimelta options, autocannon sponsoons for the russ and also chimera turret, conversion kit to turn russ into a rapier/tank destroyer. One sprue could fit in a lot of options that would get some extra use out of a lot of the IG range.

i just wish the upgrade sprue was put back in the vehicle kits instead of them milking us for more money.

I did wonder why my Russ tanks didnt have them when the one I bought over ten years ago had one... All I wanted was Heavy Stubbers on the turrets. :'(

right? Or a :cussing dozer blade?

 

I used 4 dozer blades to make a baneblade dozer blade back in the day.

[Feral_80]

My main desideratum for the next codex is relatively simple, and stems from a consideration: fluff-wise, AM is a horde army. But playing a horde army is boring and inefficient, as you spend far too much time unpacking, deploying, moving, firing, removing casualties,and re-packing (bonus: many old infantry models in current AM range suck, and nobody likes to buy and paint a horde of that). So I do not wish to have guardsmen back at 4ppm or so.

 

However, AM cannot obviously be elite either, so it must keep some numbers. The current numbers may be fine, and I do not ask for points discounts over our whole army. What we really need is not discount, but rather good rules, as the (pathetic) adjustments in the new CA show all too well.

 

Therefore, I'd like the new codex to implement a mechanic which simulates that what you have on the battlefield is but a fraction of your real force: you are focusing on a tiny section of a huuuuge battle line, miles deep, most of which lies off-board as countless reserves, supply trains, and long-range fire support.

 

To implement this, I would expect a system based eg on supply points (call them however you like) which you start with and generate in various ways. You can spend these in a variety of ways, eg: to bring to the board fresh units replacing depleted ones (cfr the old Valhallan strat), to increase the firepower of 1 leman Russ as if it was a whole armoured column firing, to bombard anywhere on the field with artillery support located 40 miles away (we used to have this in the 2nd ed codex, eons ago), to call aeronautica imperialis support and gun down a specific spot, to disrupt the enemy as a secondary brigade of parachuters attacks their supply lines. Etc. etc.

 

I mean, the kind of stuff that reflects how large-scale ww2 warfare was, and which no other codex implements. This would reflect what we all expect from AM, after all, and make it unique. There is nothing like combat patrol for the Guard, just the spearhead of half a million men marching behind them :)

Edited January 24, 2022 by Feral_80

[Shamansky]

Well said. But i'm afraid most of those fluffy and interesting 'off-board' things can not be sold in a store like models. So unfortunately we most likely will get only some renovated old stratagems and doctrines, not whole new mechanics giving bonuses without something material on the table.  For example to get one-use 'orbital bombardment' now you need MoO or OoF models, and their abilities don't make enemies running scared to be honest.

[duz_]

I've been thinking along the lines of Feral for a whole.

 

I think giving IG a practical way of reintroducing lost models would be a great way to show their vast numbers without the tedium of moving 120 models each game

[OldWherewolf]

I've been thinking along the lines of Feral for a whole.

 

I think giving IG a practical way of reintroducing lost models would be a great way to show their vast numbers without the tedium of moving 120 models each game

Bump guardsmen to 2W each?