9th Ed. Wishlist?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

 

 

So, honestly. I'd probably go with the autocannon going to S8. That puts it firmly at an anti-light/medium vehicle weapon, but can still do okay at infantry work. Making the autocannon AP-2 just makes it swap places with the heavy bolter.

S8 might be getting a little bit excessive for a weapon meant to kill light armor lol

Perhaps, but then also its relative to the meta, right? If S8 is what you need to buff light AT weapons because of the prevalence of -1D or -1 to hit, then that's alright. It does fly in the face of the fluff though -- there's no way an autocannon should be as strong as a meltagun, right? Or that much stronger than a heavy bolter round?

 

How would we like to see Sentinels changed? I'd say drop them by 5/10 points, and leave them the same. Maybe give them a bonus in faction/stratagem that lets them interact with vehicles, to represent their role as scouts for armoured companies? Smoke launchers giving friendly vehicles a -1 to hit if within 6" or something.

a S8 buff doesn’t change the -1 damage or -1 to hit issues though lol.

Personally I’d like more weapons options for them, and an option for a second of some sort on the armored sentinel even if it’s just a stubber.

 

Rumor is there’s a new sentinel kit coming so it’s a possibility they bulk the kit out a bit and add something like the grenade launcher we see on repulsors, or a stubber to it as an option.

Wait, how does that mathhammer work out? I'll hash it out later/tomorrow, unless somebody wants to do the honors. Logically, a jump from S7 to S8 would provide an added benefit against T4, T7, and T8. You're going from wounding on 3s to wounding on 2s for T4, from 4s to 3s on T7, and from 5s to 4s on T8. This would provide a benefit even against -1 to hit or -1D, because it improves your likelihood of succeeding at one step of the shooting sequence for T4/7/8.

 

I'm thinking about wounds output against various toughnesses across 5 turns of play, not just a single round of shooting. -1 to hit will make the damage output over five turns more swingy, and -1D will flatly reduce the damage output of any weapon regardless of strength. I think S8 would still make the likelihood of dealing any damage at all more likely, and this adds up after multiple rounds of shooting.

 

This "likelihood over five turns" is how I typically look at weapons from a game balance perspective, which may/may not be different than how I look at it from a list-building perspective.

 

For example, I would only anticipate getting one (or maybe two) turns of shooting out of a volcano cannon, given the target priority and vulnerability of the platform that weapon is attached to. But with Infantry Squad -embedded HWT or even weapons on Chimera/Sentinel chassis, you'll almost certainly get a few turns out of your average HW assuming your opponent's target priority is in order.

 

Full disclosure, I'm just getting off work, so my logic might be wack.

wounding easier doesn’t effect a -1 to hit debuff, nor does it effect a -1 damage debuff

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

A bit more thought and AP-2 might not be necessary, leave the stat line alone just add a rule that ignores -1damage abilities.

[MrKoolPants]

 

wounding easier doesn’t effect a -1 to hit debuff, nor does it effect a -1 damage debuff

 

 

But wait, it does for -1 to hit, but only in certain situations! And only very slightly.

 

Let's look at a target that's a T7, -1 to hit, 4++ model,

 

being shot at by a BS4 unit shooting:

 

A ) three Heavy 2, S7, AP-1, D2 weapons, or

B ) three Heavy 2, S8, AP-1, D2 weapons

 

A )  6 shots, 2 hits after -1 to hit, 1 wound, .5 wounds after a save, x2 damage, for 1 wound on average;

1 wound * 5 turns of play = average output of 5 per game against this target

B ) 6 shots, 2 hits after -1 to hit, 1.3334 wounds, .66667 wounds after a save, *2 damage, for 1.3334 wounds on average;

1.3334 wound * 5 turns of play = average output of 6.667 per game against this target.

 

So in the context of something you might see in game, holding all other factors constant, going from S7 to S8 can provide a small benefit against -1 hit in certain contexts. Namely, in those contexts where the thing that is -1 to hit is T4, T7, or T8, and when you're shooting more than one weapon in isolation. Because you're right, if you're shooting only one gun, the difference will be so small as to be hard to perceive in a game of this scale. Even if shooting three guns for one round it's hard to see. But after several rounds of shooting, the slightly higher chances add up. 

 

Here's the same kind of mathhammer against a T4, 3+ save unit

 

A ) 6 shots, 2 hits, 1.3334 wounds, .6667 after save, 1.3334 damage, 6.667 wounds per game

B ) 6 shots, 2 hits, 1.6667 wounds, .8334 after save, 1.6668 damage, 8.334 wounds per game

 

You are 100% correct that +1S isn't a straight counter to -1 to hit, per se. However, +1S can provide more wounds in the long term against the kind of targets (T4, T7, T8) that you'll typically be shooting at with this kind of weapon, thereby making it a soft counter. It is a pretty small buff though. Maybe autocannons just suck? lol. 

 

Or maybe my rudimentary maths/thinking are wrong here? 

 

 

A bit more thought and AP-2 might not be necessary, leave the stat line alone just add a rule that ignores -1damage abilities.

 

Love this. Ignores -1D would give the autocannon a nice niche against T7 and below transports/units. Maybe still not good enough to take over Lascannons, though. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by LtColKool

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

wounding easier doesn’t effect a -1 to hit debuff, nor does it effect a -1 damage debuff

 

But wait, it does for -1 to hit, but only in certain situations! And only very slightly.

 

Let's look at a target that's a T7, -1 to hit, 4++ model,

 

being shot at by a BS4 unit shooting:

 

A ) three Heavy 2, S7, AP-1, D2 weapons, or

B ) three Heavy 2, S8, AP-1, D2 weapons

 

A ) 6 shots, 2 hits after -1 to hit, 1 wound, .5 wounds after a save, x2 damage, for 1 wound on average;

1 wound * 5 turns of play = average output of 5 per game against this target

B ) 6 shots, 2 hits after -1 to hit, 1.3334 wounds, .66667 wounds after a save, *2 damage, for 1.3334 wounds on average;

1.3334 wound * 5 turns of play = average output of 6.667 per game against this target.

 

So in the context of something you might see in game, holding all other factors constant, going from S7 to S8 can provide a small benefit against -1 hit in certain contexts. Namely, in those contexts where the thing that is -1 to hit is T4, T7, or T8, and when you're shooting more than one weapon in isolation. Because you're right, if you're shooting only one gun, the difference will be so small as to be hard to perceive in a game of this scale. Even if shooting three guns for one round it's hard to see. But after several rounds of shooting, the slightly higher chances add up.

 

Here's the same kind of mathhammer against a T4, 3+ save unit

 

A ) 6 shots, 2 hits, 1.3334 wounds, .6667 after save, 1.3334 damage, 6.667 wounds per game

B ) 6 shots, 2 hits, 1.6667 wounds, .8334 after save, 1.6668 damage, 8.334 wounds per game

 

You are 100% correct that +1S isn't a straight counter to -1 to hit, per se. However, +1S can provide more wounds in the long term against the kind of targets (T4, T7, T8) that you'll typically be shooting at with this kind of weapon, thereby making it a soft counter. It is a pretty small buff though. Maybe autocannons just suck? lol.

 

Or maybe my rudimentary maths/thinking are wrong here?

 

A bit more thought and AP-2 might not be necessary, leave the stat line alone just add a rule that ignores -1damage abilities.

Love this. Ignores -1D would give the autocannon a nice niche against T7 and below transports/units. Maybe still not good enough to take over Lascannons, though.

probably wouldn’t be good enough to usurp the lascannon, but I wouldn’t want it to. I just want it to be better at killing trukks, and dreadnoughts, and generally better at killing vehicles and monsters than a HB.

The HB would still have the edge on heavy infantry though.

[jarms48]

If you want to mathhammer here's some scenarios:

 

Heavy bolter: 

- Against T3 3+: 0.5 unsaved wounds.

- Against T4 3+: 0.5 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.375 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T6 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T7 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T8 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds. 

 

Autocannon: 

- Against T3 3+: 0.417 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T4 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T6 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds.

- Against T7 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds.

- Against T8 3+: 0.167 unsaved wounds.

 

Regular autocannon loses/ties against everything except T6.

 

Autocannon buffed to AP-2: 

- Against T3 3+: 0.556 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T4 3+: 0.444 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T5 3+: 0.444 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T6 3+: 0.444 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T7 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T8 3+: 0.222 unsaved wounds.

 

Autocannon buffed to AP-2 beats the heavy bolter at everything except T4 and T8.

 

Autocannon buffed to S8:

- Against T3 3+: 0.417 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T4 3+: 0.417 unsaved wounds.

- Against T5 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T6 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T7 3+: 0.333 unsaved wounds. 

- Against T8 3+: 0.25 unsaved wounds.

 

Autocannon buffed to S8 beats the heavy bolter at T6, and T7. Heavy bolter wins at T3, T4, T5, and ties at T8. 

 

So, honestly. I'd probably go with the autocannon going to S8. That puts it firmly at an anti-light/medium vehicle weapon, but can still do okay at infantry work. Making the autocannon AP-2 just makes it swap places with the heavy bolter.

 

A -1 to Hit would effect all these equally. As the wound rolls are completely unchanged.

[MrKoolPants]

Re: wishlisting, I’d love if we got regimental rules that supported certain flavors of guard regiments.

 

For tanks regiments, I like the idea of a “Wall of Steel” rule, where <Armoured Company> (or whatever) vehicles get +1 Toughness if within 3” of each other or if in base/model contact. Or maybe instead of +1 T, it’s -1D. And vehicles get Obsec = to wounds remaining, but your warlord must be a vehicle.

 

And for Veteran Infantry, give the “always counts as in cover,” and “-1 to hit if actually in cover” rules. And maybe a cheeky rule like “I’m not dead… yet!” where models in veteran units can stand back up, representing the heroes who never seem to die. Something that works like the Necron reanimation rules.

[Plague _Lord]

Just a random thought to make mortars usefull - give them a pinning effect that for instance halves movement if it wounds a unit. Maybe even make it have to kill a member of the enemy unit so it's not too op - or turn it into a statagem so it can't be abused.

[MrKoolPants]

Just a random thought to make mortars usefull - give them a pinning effect that for instance halves movement if it wounds a unit. Maybe even make it have to kill a member of the enemy unit so it's not too op - or turn it into a statagem so it can't be abused.

Didn’t we used to have rules like that waaay back in the day? Like 6th Ed? Barrage weapons causing a morale or pinning effect. Pretty thematic.

[domsto]

I wish for a mayor price decrease across the Board.

Had a Game against Death Guard Last weekend and it astonished me how much our Tank Commanders are overcosted compared to the Plague Burst Crawler.

They are Basically the same as a TC

Both T8 12W

The Crawler has a -1Dmg and the LR has a 2+save, so i call them even on that front

Both BS+3

Also the Guns are basically the same. Yes we have grinding advance, but the crawler has no-LOS shooting and Plague weapon special Rule.

BUT the Crawler is 85p per Model Cheaper as a Tank Commander.

(Comparing a TC with Battlecannon,Heavybolter and Multimelta to a basic Crawler so the weapons and Damage output is similar)

How is this possible??

[MrKoolPants]

Price decreases are certainly needed. I don’t think we’ll see one on Infantry Squads, but almost everything else.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I wish for a mayor price decrease across the Board.

Had a Game against Death Guard Last weekend and it astonished me how much our Tank Commanders are overcosted compared to the Plague Burst Crawler.

They are Basically the same as a TC

Both T8 12W

The Crawler has a -1Dmg and the LR has a 2+save, so i call them even on that front

Both BS+3

Also the Guns are basically the same. Yes we have grinding advance, but the crawler has no-LOS shooting and Plague weapon special Rule.

BUT the Crawler is 85p per Model Cheaper as a Tank Commander.

(Comparing a TC with Battlecannon,Heavybolter and Multimelta to a basic Crawler so the weapons and Damage output is similar)

How is this possible??

how about with plasma cannons? Those vents help out a lot with plasma

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The necromunda land train kinda makes me want a pintle mounted grenade launcher on our vehicles

[jarms48]

I really want to see heavy weapons be viable for infantry squads again. For this to happen they have to be cheap enough to not inflate the cost to absurd levels.

 

For me a regular guard squad should have these price points:

5pts - regular guardsman

8pts - veteran guardsman (+1bs, +1LD)

2pts - grenade launcher

2pts - flamer

2pts - sniper

5pts - plasma gun

5pts - melta gun

5pts - missile launcher

5pts - heavy bolter

10pts - autocann but with improved profile, if profile the same then 5pts

10pts - lascannon

5pts or free - vox caster that actually does something useful.

 

I think paying around 65 pts for a squad with special weapons and heavy is about right and going for a cheapo loadout of grenade launcher and missile launcher for 57pts would also be decent. Bare bones infantry squads are boring!!

 

Also veterans should of course be troops, it baffles me that storm troopers are troops but vets not

Oh and a big one - command squads should be treated as charachters so should benefit from LOS of course.

 

Honestly, our Troop choices should look something like this:

 

- Conscripts: 5 points per model. Given the Cultist treatment. Buff them to WS and BS4+, loses access to Regiment Doctrines.

- Guardsmen: 5 points per model. Most likely we're going to see the HWT removed as they don't come in the box. Though this would be fine if Infantry Squads could take 2 special weapons. 

- Veterans: 6 points per model. BS3+, Ld 7 on Veterans and Ld 8 on Veteran Sergeants. Like Infantry Squads likely HWT would be removed, possibly the heavy flamer as well. Cause currently they only come in the Command Squad box.

- Kasrkins: 8 points per model. Scion equipment and statline, except Kasrkins get the Regiment keyword. Kasrkins and Scions have same Ld treatment as Veterans. hotshots increased to 24 inches, and hotshot laspistols increased to 12 inches. 

 

- Scions: 8 points per model. Given the Harliquin treatment. Can no longer be taken in regular Guard detachments but can still be taken alongside them in a Patrol detachment, or taken as a mono-Scion army. 

 

Special Weapons:

- Sniper Rifle: Renamed Long-las. AP increased to AP-2. 2 points still.

- Grenade Launcher and Flamer: No stat change, just dropped to 3 points.

- Plasma and Melta: 5/10 points still depending on BS. 

 

Wish-listing Special Weapons:

I know GW won't do it, but I'd love to see a Stormbolter as a special weapon for 3 points as well as a Heavy Stubber for 5 points. The Heavy Stubber I'd increase to heavy 4.

 

Heavy Weapons:

They won't change sadly, but I'd love to see Twin Heavy Stubbers for 10 points, heavy 8 would be cool. Multi-lasers for 10 points buffed to heavy 6. Heavy Flamers turned into HWT models, like the old DKOK one. Plasma Cannon and Multi-melta options. 

[domsto]

 

how about with plasma cannons? Those vents help out a lot with plasma

 

even with the Plasma the Point difference only slightly changes. now the TC is *only* 75points more expansive.

The Point is that a different army with a 9.Ed Codex pays way less for a very similar Unit as we do without any Codex buffs.

You could make the argument that the TC has access to Orders but does this justify the huge Point difference?

 

For me it highlights two things

First GW has absurdly overcosted Vehicles on the start of 9.Ed and is now slowly rolling it back to more reasonable Point costs (IMO the Plague burst crawler is OK priced for what it can do, also we see the same thing with the Marine Tanks)

 

second the laughable "balancing" attempts GW does with the Chapter approved by only increasing the Point of Units that are played often, ignoring the Fact that these Units(in case of Guard TC and Manticore) are the only Units that are somewhat descent and keep the Army in the Game. 

[domsto]

 

 

Honestly, our Troop choices should look something like this:

 

- Conscripts: 5 points per model. Given the Cultist treatment. Buff them to WS and BS4+, loses access to Regiment Doctrines.

- Guardsmen: 5 points per model. Most likely we're going to see the HWT removed as they don't come in the box. Though this would be fine if Infantry Squads could take 2 special weapons. 

- Veterans: 6 points per model. BS3+, Ld 7 on Veterans and Ld 8 on Veteran Sergeants. Like Infantry Squads likely HWT would be removed, possibly the heavy flamer as well. Cause currently they only come in the Command Squad box.

- Kasrkins: 8 points per model. Scion equipment and statline, except Kasrkins get the Regiment keyword. Kasrkins and Scions have same Ld treatment as Veterans. hotshots increased to 24 inches, and hotshot laspistols increased to 12 inches. 

 

- Scions: 8 points per model. Given the Harliquin treatment. Can no longer be taken in regular Guard detachments but can still be taken alongside them in a Patrol detachment, or taken as a mono-Scion army. 

 

Special Weapons:

- Sniper Rifle: Renamed Long-las. AP increased to AP-2. 2 points still.

- Grenade Launcher and Flamer: No stat change, just dropped to 3 points.

- Plasma and Melta: 5/10 points still depending on BS. 

 

Wish-listing Special Weapons:

I know GW won't do it, but I'd love to see a Stormbolter as a special weapon for 3 points as well as a Heavy Stubber for 5 points. The Heavy Stubber I'd increase to heavy 4.

 

Heavy Weapons:

They won't change sadly, but I'd love to see Twin Heavy Stubbers for 10 points, heavy 8 would be cool. Multi-lasers for 10 points buffed to heavy 6. Heavy Flamers turned into HWT models, like the old DKOK one. Plasma Cannon and Multi-melta options. 

 

Would also be cool when our heavy Weapon Teams are getting some sort of "covering fire" special Rule or a Rule to take them in bigger Squads to go around the Rule of 3.

Mortars could mess with the Enemys movement for example

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

how about with plasma cannons? Those vents help out a lot with plasma

 

even with the Plasma the Point difference only slightly changes. now the TC is *only* 75points more expansive.

The Point is that a different army with a 9.Ed Codex pays way less for a very similar Unit as we do without any Codex buffs.

You could make the argument that the TC has access to Orders but does this justify the huge Point difference?

 

For me it highlights two things

First GW has absurdly overcosted Vehicles on the start of 9.Ed and is now slowly rolling it back to more reasonable Point costs (IMO the Plague burst crawler is OK priced for what it can do, also we see the same thing with the Marine Tanks)

 

second the laughable "balancing" attempts GW does with the Chapter approved by only increasing the Point of Units that are played often, ignoring the Fact that these Units(in case of Guard TC and Manticore) are the only Units that are somewhat descent and keep the Army in the Game.

75pts is a bit extreme, but it is an HQ with orders vs heavy supports

[jarms48]

Would also be cool when our heavy Weapon Teams are getting some sort of "covering fire" special Rule or a Rule to take them in bigger Squads to go around the Rule of 3.

 

Mortars could mess with the Enemys movement for example

 

This could be fixed pretty easily. There's 2 ways:

- The Simple Way: Just rename the HWS to Heavy Weapon Platoon and then make it a 1-3 unit option. Basically like vehicle squadrons.

- The Complex Way: Go back to how they worked in 3rd - 3.5 edition. Have a Fire Support Squad with HB or Autocannons. An Anti-Tank Squad with Missile Launchers or Lascannons. Then a Mortar Squad with Mortars. 

 

Both would allow for 9 HWS's to be taken. The latter though still limits you to 3 of each type. So you couldn't have say just 9 lascannon HWS's, while the first option does allow that. 

[WarriorFish]

I like the idea of giving HWSs a sort of LO,S rule where they gain some sort of benefit by being near a closer Infantry Squad. I'm not sure what it could be as a direct copy of being unforgettable wouldn't work, but maybe a penalty to hit and buff to their saves could help? Along with something like giving them a better save naturally to represent their entrenched position it might be a simpler way to give them some durability and make them more viable?

 

I have taken HWSs as they are cool and part of the Guard infantry experience, but they have made little impact on games for all the obvious reasons

[Feral_80]

About HWT, to both improve survivability and to reflect the actual models (what are those sandbags there for, at the moment?), I'd like seeing a rule like the following:

 

Entrenched: as long as this unit has not moved in the previous Movement phase, add 2 to its Toughness and 2 to its Save characteristics (does not work in CC).

 

=> T 5 and Sv 3+ (2+ if in cover) would make them decently survivable at least against small arms fire.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Feral_80

[The Pounder]

Great idea Feral_80!

 

IIRC when Krieg had their unique orders one was called “dig in” and that did something similar to what you’re suggesting!

 

So there is a precedent for that type of rule.

 

 

I’ve played a few games with my Krieg now and I have to say that most of my artillery is severely over costed.

 

I think both Medusa and Earthshaker Carriages should be around 85pts rather than the steep 120pts it is now.

 

I love my Demolisher Tank Commander but again, overpriced and easy to kill by any decent anti tank weapons.

 

Hopefully there’ll be some nice surprises in our new codex (when ever that will be)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Great idea Feral_80!

 

IIRC when Krieg had their unique orders one was called “dig in” and that did something similar to what you’re suggesting!

 

So there is a precedent for that type of rule.

 

 

I’ve played a few games with my Krieg now and I have to say that most of my artillery is severely over costed.

 

I think both Medusa and Earthshaker Carriages should be around 85pts rather than the steep 120pts it is now.

 

I love my Demolisher Tank Commander but again, overpriced and easy to kill by any decent anti tank weapons.

 

Hopefully there’ll be some nice surprises in our new codex (when ever that will be)

the AP discussion in amicus aedes would help solve a lot of issues with our vehicles.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

So, I was having some thoughts.

A lot of people are skeptical that that the infantry squad will remain a flat rate when the codex comes out, but idk, IG are historically a hoard army, this enables us to be that hoard army, without major points cuts I don’t know how else we’d reasonably achieve that.

I think this is something that is a preview of the new codex. Auto wounding on 6s is the buff I find questionable if it will carry over

[jarms48]

I have a feeling Hammer of the Emperor will be our pure bonus in the new codex. GW just gave it to us early.

[domsto]

So, I was having some thoughts.

A lot of people are skeptical that that the infantry squad will remain a flat rate when the codex comes out, but idk, IG are historically a hoard army, this enables us to be that hoard army, without major points cuts I don’t know how else we’d reasonably achieve that.

I think this is something that is a preview of the new codex. Auto wounding on 6s is the buff I find questionable if it will carry over

I am not abig fan on this Flaterate.

GW wrote itselfe into a corner once again. With everything free how do you balance the diffrent variants? Say the Special weapon, everybody agrees that melta and Plasma are the only real options while flamer and sniper are the bottom tier. So how do you balance them now? You can't adjust the points because everything is free... Same with the HWTs

Also if you want to run a only lasgun Squad you basically handycap yourselfe. With this ruling you are forced to bring every upgrade you can so you strikeeven on the point side, no real choice here.

Also why did the Infantry Squad got it, and the veterans don't? Or what about the Special Weapons Squad?

This Ruling is a mess when it comes to internal balance.

I hope they role back on this. Make Infantry Squads 50points again and then let me as a player decide if i want to run them dirt cheap or decked out with special and Heavy Weapons.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

So, I was having some thoughts.

A lot of people are skeptical that that the infantry squad will remain a flat rate when the codex comes out, but idk, IG are historically a hoard army, this enables us to be that hoard army, without major points cuts I don’t know how else we’d reasonably achieve that.

I think this is something that is a preview of the new codex. Auto wounding on 6s is the buff I find questionable if it will carry over

I am not abig fan on this Flaterate.

GW wrote itselfe into a corner once again. With everything free how do you balance the diffrent variants? Say the Special weapon, everybody agrees that melta and Plasma are the only real options while flamer and sniper are the bottom tier. So how do you balance them now? You can't adjust the points because everything is free... Same with the HWTs

Also if you want to run a only lasgun Squad you basically handycap yourselfe. With this ruling you are forced to bring every upgrade you can so you strikeeven on the point side, no real choice here.

Also why did the Infantry Squad got it, and the veterans don't? Or what about the Special Weapons Squad?

This Ruling is a mess when it comes to internal balance.

I hope they role back on this. Make Infantry Squads 50points again and then let me as a player decide if i want to run them dirt cheap or decked out with special and Heavy Weapons.

you’re no more forced to bring everything now, than you were forced to leave everything before this.

Some guns are better, but tbh in the hands of guardsmen they’re only moderately better so trying to balance them against each other via points is silly and stupid.

 

Guard is supposed to be a hoard army, and if you pay per model, and then pay per upgrade necessary to make a squad remotely effective, then we’re no longer a hoard army and we’re spending way too many points on trying to make our troops useful.

If an infantry squad is going to pay for upgrades the squad should be no more than 30pts

A 10 man squad with

At 30pts a squad with Power sword, plasma pistol, meltagun, lascannon, and vodka is 70pts or more, and that’s just way too much.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven