State of the Union (Heresy)

[sarabando]

It's something and that's all that matters NS when the raven guard players manage to redirect enough blood from their legion wide Boners I'm sure they will chirp in too :D

[SkimaskMohawk]

Eh I managed to make my raven guard all mk6 out of the 4th edition leftovers and the original upgrade kit back in 2013. Since then there's been the ravenwing knights, new tactical squad, new resin upgrades, mor deythan, dark furies and even the primaris upgrade kit.

 

Mk6 is the easiest to make.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Weren't imperial fists and sons of Horus both present on Mars? Of course, not the Twisted, but we'd also heard they were working on Dark Mechanicum?

Plus they don't seem to have much of a problem retconning pre-established battles at the moment ^^'

 

EDIT I'll be honest, even if mkVI is iconic and has a nostalgia factor, in current fluff I'm not sure it would really make sense in context of a battlebox - I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm not getting my hopes up

 

Schism of Mars might not be the worst shout, especially given a decent portion of the Imperial Fists' involvement included trying to get as many shipments of power armour off Mars before the blockade as possible, the most advanced being MkVI

[WrathOfTheLion]

MK VI is totally fine with me. I'd have preferred MK II or MK V, but this would be good.

 

I've scrounged up a few suits of MK VI from the tactical box, but I have no interest in doing that for a full squad or anything like that.

[Darkwrath121]

I remain healthily sceptical, no offence intended to frater Freeloader, of course. Awful lot of circumstancial evidence around new stuff for 30k in general, and I would understand the logic behind a Mk6 release, but I'm too afraid to hope for anything 30k beyond new resin characters for now!

 

I'd definitely be intrigued by whether a new box would mix in any vehicles.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Darkwrath121

[Joe]

This is one reason why I appreciate the communities where the administration / moderation have been able to verify whether or not a rumour / leak should be trusted or not - either by the individual providing evidence of the content to them or their position in relation to it. Obviously, this becomes increasingly difficult when it's "I saw x or y, but can't actually show anything off" and so on.

 

I'm not a huge fan of text-based rumours; especially given how it can waylay the community at times. It's that whole "x has been promised, but not given" conundrum.

[Spagunk]

So I am not saying I buy the rumor. But I will say that MK6 makes "round about" sense to me.

MK6 is really the old school marine. It's hearkening back to Rogue Trader Beakies which people always have a soft spot for. Furthermore the vast majority of HH is either mk3 or mk4 at the moment. Early HH was mk2-4 but for whatever reason they decided mk2 is bad.

 

Anyway, we have like 3 kits in mk6 so it would make sense to me to introduce them as plastics since that means they just need to produce upgrades for a line that doesn't have a whole lot of use. That way they can retire the normal mk6 resin and maybe do some more things like maybe more mk5 resin (would love mk2 lines ;) ). That said, you could easily make the same argument for mk2's if it was purely an inventory solution.

 

But here is the big sticky widget: not many legions had access to mk6 until way later. So I don't know how they're going to justify it or bring it up. It might make sense if it was mid Siege but who would have even been given it? Guess we'll know soon maybe.

Code 30 is life.

[Pacific81]

This is one reason why I appreciate the communities where the administration / moderation have been able to verify whether or not a rumour / leak should be trusted or not - either by the individual providing evidence of the content to them or their position in relation to it. Obviously, this becomes increasingly difficult when it's "I saw x or y, but can't actually show anything off" and so on.

 

I'm not a huge fan of text-based rumours; especially given how it can waylay the community at times. It's that whole "x has been promised, but not given" conundrum.

 

With this kind of thing, my question would be "why bother?" if it was fake? There are much bigger crowds on social media to play to if it was someone just making up some fake news. I am an optimist perhaps. :) It also feels quite likely in context of where the Heresy book series is right now (coming off the back of Siege of Terra, would make sense from a release standpoint too). 

[WrathOfTheLion]

This is one reason why I appreciate the communities where the administration / moderation have been able to verify whether or not a rumour / leak should be trusted or not - either by the individual providing evidence of the content to them or their position in relation to it. Obviously, this becomes increasingly difficult when it's "I saw x or y, but can't actually show anything off" and so on.

 

I'm not a huge fan of text-based rumours; especially given how it can waylay the community at times. It's that whole "x has been promised, but not given" conundrum.

One day, these rumors are going to inevitably be correct to some degree. Just from deduction, they are going to either ramp up support, or they're going to drop it in entirety. Since they plan on adding another game system that inevitably will require stronger plastic support, I think one can pretty well reason that something like this will happen, although not the specifics.

 

As for MK VI, the Raven Guard definitely would have had it at Istvaan, and traitor legions would have had access to it afterwards. We also know the Dark Angels legion would have had it prior to the outbreak of the heresy as well. So I think by the time war had fully broken out, it should have made its rounds in some quantities to most legions.

[Marshal Loss]

At least this rumour would finally give FW a chance to use that unpublished art of a Son of Horus in Mk VI armour back from 2014.

 

 

I'm a little dubious, and would have preferred Mk II, but happy to wait and see. Mk VI could easily be justified though if that's what they want to do.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

I think it's fair to say that by this point in the HH Black Books, we've kinda reached the mid-Heresy where it feels more feasible to see MkVI relatively widespread among the Legions - Crusade implies that all Legions received variously sized shipments of Corvus armour pre-Heresy & there's been plenty of 'rare' wargear that's been looted & replicated by different Legions to justify any collector fielding pretty much what they like. 

 

MkVI might also function as something of an olive branch to 40k firstborn players as non-primaris kits get gradually phased out, given it's more recognisable as 'iconic' space marine armour - I've speculated before that the timeframe for plastic heresy might have something to do with not wanting to compete directly with 40k kits, meaning we'd have to wait for non-heresy equivalents to be discontinued before we get stuff like deimos predators etc.

[ShadowCore67]

Well if it is MK6, at least I'll finally be able to make those firewing seekers I've been blowing off.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

as some one with 5 heresy armies a new plastic box would very very easily get me starting new armies. off the top of my head my current shopping list is.

 

30 MkII marines for my scars

20 mkV and 20mkII for my SOH

20 MKVI for my Ultras

30MKII for a future NL

30 MKVI for a RTBO1 red and blue Blood angels force

 

one of each mark for a shattered legions force.

 

now i can give GW £24 for each box (price currently at my flgs) or i can keep printing them their choice.

Printer for Mark II go brrrr.... obviously i'd prefer plastics though. I hear you, totally. Also, i'm excited to see you tackle the 8th.

 

 

I wouldn't expect any direct specifics about what they've seen to be posted on here to protect their source.

 

It's an oddly unpleasant situation to be in. This may get confusing so I apologise in advance, someone I know knows someone who knows a person at GW that leaked the information. When he told me I was like yeah right ok and pigs might fly then he showed me on his phone 100% undeniable proof and my jaw hit the ground. I want to scream out what I saw in detail but someone left an extremely obvious trail and even though I don't know them and they were incredibly reckless I don't want them losing their job on my conscience for something that will be out soon enough. Although I rarely post I love coming to this part of the site and looking at people's armies and reading their thoughts on the heresy so when I saw people losing hope who work I follow it was hard not to say anything. I am so excited about what is coming but I wouldn't be surprised if it gets leaked by someone with less scruples at some point.

 

Very cool of you to instill some hope though!

 

 

 

Well how far along was what you saw? Was it the final box, concept sketches, bare plastic minis, sprues, painted minis? Which legions ? If you cannot say what it exactly is, what about the state of it? You may have seen something that is in ongoing development, not necessarily something that is fit for release anytime soon.

 

Two fully painted completed armies in battle. It looked like something promotional from a White Dwarf spread and I've already mentioned the two Legions. The power armour is Mk 6 but modernized. I saw five plastic kits in total and I'd say based on what I saw yes it is ready to be released, I was told this year.  

 

 

By the four, SoH and IF along with new Mk VI surely we aren't jumping straight to Siege of Terra already surely? Calling on HH loremasters for other SoH vs IF moments that it could be instead... 

 

Yeah, it both makes a lot of sense, and simultaneously very little sense to jump ahead so quickly. My main worry is that once the "Siege" is covered, that spells the real end. It's like skipping to the favorite portion of a song with build up, and then its' over. 

 

 

Well how far along was what you saw? Was it the final box, concept sketches, bare plastic minis, sprues, painted minis? Which legions ? If you cannot say what it exactly is, what about the state of it? You may have seen something that is in ongoing development, not necessarily something that is fit for release anytime soon.

 

Two fully painted completed armies in battle. It looked like something promotional from a White Dwarf spread and I've already mentioned the two Legions. The power armour is Mk 6 but modernized. I saw five plastic kits in total and I'd say based on what I saw yes it is ready to be released, I was told this year.  

 

Obviously you don't have to go on about exact hulls and chassis, but are there any vehicles ? For armored nuts like myself...

 

MK VI is totally fine with me. I'd have preferred MK II or MK V, but this would be good.

 

I've scrounged up a few suits of MK VI from the tactical box, but I have no interest in doing that for a full squad or anything like that.

 

I second the Mk II, but trying to make entire forces out of a few bits from a main box is incredibly difficult...

 

I think it's fair to say that by this point in the HH Black Books, we've kinda reached the mid-Heresy where it feels more feasible to see MkVI relatively widespread among the Legions - Crusade implies that all Legions received variously sized shipments of Corvus armour pre-Heresy & there's been plenty of 'rare' wargear that's been looted & replicated by different Legions to justify any collector fielding pretty much what they like. 

 

If there's plastic Mark VI in the "nu-scale", i'm certainly grabbing some. I have one beaked marine in my NL collection, and it's from the very first tactical squad I did, in which the whole squad has mixed plate.

 

I snapped this picture from my copy of Crusade, sorry if there's any glare. 

 

[No Foes Remain]

When I think of Mk6 I don't really think HH, my first thought is Rogue Trader and my second is the Raven Guard. Now I know Crusade mentioned that most Legions got some Mk6, the main ones to have loads were obviously the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion. Of course some of the other traitor Legions could have gotten some with Horus messing with supply lines which has the flip side of the loyal Legions not getting as much if any.
  So in my mind there are 2 Legions that should have loads: Raven Guard and Alpha Legion and 3 Legions that should have some: Imperial Fists (after nabbing some from Mars), Sons of Horus (because of Horus) and Dark Angels (because they were favoured with all sorts of tech). Now that doesn't include those traitor Legions that took some form the bodies of the Raven Guard at Isstvan V or those loyalists who managed to recover sets from the traitors (which should be even less). But if this is a Mk6 'box set' or 'starter set' featuring SoH vs IF then it's a bit odd in my eyes that they chose those Legions to go with that armour.

 

Of course IHF could totally be right and this set provides a double strike from GW, give HH players some more armour and 40k SM players get another Firstborn release. Which is the way I am leaning right now.

Edited May 19, 2021 by No Foes Remain

[LameBeard]

Could be the old “gateway drug” plan. Bring in some new players to the Heresy who buy the set (maybe bring back v old players from rogue trader days). They start reading about the heresy and think, well this Mark vi is nice, but what I really want is Mark ii, Forgeworld brings out Mk II rescaled at £100 for 5 dudes. Tea and medals and bumper bonuses all round.

[Calibanite Knight Angel]

I have something controversial to say, and you guys might not like it.

 

Everyone sits around complaining about 30k being dead, but maybe if people actually just played the game and painted the models, etc, instead of sitting around complaining, it wouldn't be dead? I'm not trying to hate on anyone, but I do feel compelled to share my perspective. Sure, 30k doesn't really get anything new ever, but look at what we've got! Many dozens (hundreds?) of models, rules for all 18 legions, and a dedicated fanbase. Apart from getting a model for Jaghatai Khan and maybe legion-specific units that already have rules, I don't think 30k needs anything else from GW.

Why do we need new plastic models of things we already have models of? Sure, plastic is great. Sure, new players are great, but I feel like most people here (except for those wanting Mark II, because no equivalent exists) probably already have the existing models of the models they're asking for so it wouldn't really affect you anyway. Everyone makes wish lists for models they want to see in dedicated plastic kits, but they can often already get them (sure resin is more work, but that never stopped the 30k community before Betrayal at Calth came out). 

Point is, I feel like the community is dying, but not because of loss of official support. If we need a company selling us overpriced shiny new products (like how Apple sells a nearly identical iphone every year and people just buy it even though they don't need it) to keep 30k alive, then it's already dead in the only sense that matters. We have the tools. Why do we need GW to give us "official" rules for things we can just write ourselves (I feel like the existing rules are so comprehensive that you could just mod an existing character or unit to create a new one. For example, I wrote up rules of Little Horus at the time of the Saturnine novel by looking at the rules of a Praetor, Tybalt Marr, and Loken and creating a new character in the same vein). Just so long as common sense is applied when writing them, any opponent worth playing against should be happy to accomodate your house rules, and you don't need to pay $100 (AUD) for a new FW book for it. Similarly, tournaments seem to be adopting Mournival rules, so I feel if the community bands together to create a "community standard ruleset" tournaments might adopt these house rules and units.

I want to give an example of what I feel our community could (and should) be. Have you guys heard of the Star Wars Trading Card Game that was discontinued after the Revenge of the Sith expansion that came out in like 2005? Well that game lives on, and has new content, because their community has banded together under the title "Independent Development Committee", and continue to develop new cards and rules themselves (I just looked and they have developed 37 expansions as a community over the last 15 years. They don't need or wait around as consumers for a corporation to tell them to buy a product. They instead focus on the game itself, and it thrives because it feels very pure and genuine without waiting for a company to tell them to buy a product. It's just for the love of the game and what they already have.

So I think if we ditch waiting for new stuff, celebrate what we have and unite as a community instead of waiting for a big company to tell us what to do and think we'll be better off, and that is genuinely the only way 30k will survive. I'm not trying to attack anyone, but when you look at the Age of Darkness Forum here on Bolter and Chainsword, I feel like 90% of the time everyone is always on this thread obsessing over future potential products for things that are already available instead of actually doing the hobby (you know, the thing that we're here for and complaining about). The people actually just doing the hobby itself are the focus. We can't change GW or FW, so why worry when we as a community can secure our future ourselves by banding together?

Sorry that was long and unwieldy and I guess ranty and wasn't meant as an attack but I think if we thought this way it would be way better for everyone.

[sarabando]

Heresy community is alive and well online. It is however a little slow here on the BnC but on discord it's busy I'm on 7 separate 30k related discord servers with only minor overlap of users, Instagram is filled with absolutely top notch hobby posts and we have the mournival team who have released a plethora of fan rules ranging from new marine units such as terminator plate wearing dual volkite totting heavy destroyers to entire fan made Xenos great crusade era codecs for orks and eldar. To say all we do is whine is very disingenuous the heresy community has been doing the leg work for a very long time.

[LameBeard]

@Calibanate Knight Angel - I agree with a lot of what you just wrote, but can I please just point out that a lot of the people commenting in this thread have a phenomenal hobby output, developing fluff, converting models, awesome paint jobs: they really are doing the hobby and providing support and community to others - I’ve had people encourage me, offer me 3D prints, point me to various sources, give me painting tips. So yes we ARE the hobby and we are the Community and if those amazing people want a thread or two to vent a few gripes that is ok by me.

 

Also, I think we CAN sometimes change GW / FW - that is just a slow and subtle and imperfect process so I think most people don’t notice, but some messages do get through.

[No Foes Remain]

Calibanite, those are some fair points. However, with the current situation in the world, many people cannot meet up and play games, then you have people like myself who would love to play a game but my nearest GW is an hour away and the nearest gaming club slightly further than that. So with my current work schedule it's hard to justify it.

 

For me, personally, the two main issues I have are continued support and ease of access.

 

The HH has a fair few issues with rules as of late (psychic phase mainly and not to mention the lackluster DA rules from book 9 [25pts x2 for a Delegatus/Praetor BEFORE anything else to get a Rite of War?]) and there has been no attempts to fix them. There have been some playtest rules but that's all they had, they never officially updated the rules with the better version (destroyers come to mind here). FW are, by no means, the only company that do this. Wizards of the Coast put out a playtest update for the D&D 5e Ranger [which has terrible options compared to other classes] but never went further than that.

 

Ease of access is a bit thing, to people who mainly buy from GW resin can be scary and time consuming to use in comparison to plastic. With plastic you open the box, clip what you want of the sprue, remove mold lines and get gluing. With resin you need to soak it (I usually leave it a day for all the release agent to get out), cut it off the resin blocks it's attached too, (sometimes a second soak depending on release agent) and then if you want to sand anything or trim anything down then you either have to buy the correct respirator or do it under water.

  As an asthmatic I've been limiting my resin purchases as I don't want to run the risk of making my airways worse, and there will be people with worse respiratory conditions than myself who are put off from FW stuff due to the issues with resin.

  The last thing is starter sets. Necromunda has had it's 3rd starter set released and HH has seen none, yes Calth and Prospero could be seen as starter sets if they weren't advertised as their own game.

[sarabando]

Yea I think that's were a large amount of the community animosity comes from 0 starter set Vs 3 or so for all the other games

[Pacific81]

 

Point is, I feel like the community is dying, but not because of loss of official support. If we need a company selling us overpriced shiny new products (like how Apple sells a nearly identical iphone every year and people just buy it even though they don't need it) to keep 30k alive, then it's already dead in the only sense that matters. We have the tools. Why do we need GW to give us "official" rules for things we can just write ourselves (I feel like the existing rules are so comprehensive that you could just mod an existing character or unit to create a new one. For example, I wrote up rules of Little Horus at the time of the Saturnine novel by looking at the rules of a Praetor, Tybalt Marr, and Loken and creating a new character in the same vein). Just so long as common sense is applied when writing them, any opponent worth playing against should be happy to accomodate your house rules, and you don't need to pay $100 (AUD) for a new FW book for it. Similarly, tournaments seem to be adopting Mournival rules, so I feel if the community bands together to create a "community standard ruleset" tournaments might adopt these house rules and units.

 

 

I agree with you on this point. The fact is that some people do need to buy new things in new shrinkwrap, and know no other way. It has to be the new shiny on the GW website and nothing else. Those customers and players will go onto the next big new shiny, but I think anyone that is a proper fan of the game and setting will hang around long after the official miniatures have stopped selling. 

 

I actually think there is a bonus to not having official attention in some ways. You have your ruleset, you have your miniatures, you have your community - that's all you need. When a new rules release comes that can actually cause a fracture in that community and it can hit like a bomb shell, especially if that game has been out of publication for a while. Look at what happened with Necromunda for instance when N18 hit and the community was fractured by preference for the old game or the new. It now seems the dust has settled at least and the fan community on Yaktribe has got on top of the new release, with a community FAQ that blunts most of the more egregious problems and inconsistencies of the new rules (or people have just gone back to the old ones!) But, it has taken a while for the dust to settle.

Incidentally, with Blood Bowl (which I think has an even bigger community, looking at the scale of some of the tournaments) it was less of an impact as it was pretty much the same game with some minor changes. 

That those communities have persisted (and actually continued to grow), with massive numbers of players, shows that a good game and good setting can survive and prosper. People love the games, they organise events and host forums and fan communities, make out-of-publication rules available online etc. That's all it needs.

This is quite normal in wargaming outside of GW games, but I think it can be helpful to get out of the (as you say, with Apple and other manufacturers) constant purchase cycle and planned obsolescence of rules and miniatures. 

 

As for communities, as has been said above I have found with other wargaming areas other channels are far busier than most forums these days. I find with Epic I am lucky if I get a comment or like or two on forums, on FB it gets thousands of views and lots of like/shares and the community makes dozens of new posts a day. The Horus Heresy FB groups are pretty active too. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Pacific81

[Allart01]

I think a revision/rebalancing to some Legion rules and units would be necessary before actually calling the AoD system "complete" and being happy with it for the rest of my hobby life, but I'll agree that everything after that is a bonus. Edited May 19, 2021 by The_Bloody

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

Chiming in that the local scene by me is alive and well, in fact - there's a mega battle happening this Saturday with around 10 players swinging by, if I recall. I'm in group chats with local players, and we're all continuously working on models and painting. I'm actually having a game later on today. I think the people who whinge that the scene is dead... don't really look for it. There's so many tools in this day and age between pocket computers on each person to help connect players, all it needs is some one to go "Hey, do you want to try...?"
 

 

I think a revision/rebalancing to some Legion rules and units would be necessary before actually calling the AoD system "complete" and being happy with it for the rest of my hobby life, but I'll agree that everything after that is a bonus.

I think a revisit to the armies in the first two books would be needed, maybe not Night Lords as of Crusade updates. The Sons of Horus, Emperors' Children, they need help bad. 

[Doghouse]

I'm glad to hear the community is alive and well . Griz from here on the B&C and our mate Jay are dragging me off to a tournament next February and I am really looking forward to getting into the tournament scene and meeting people. 

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

The primary issue for me is accessibility - I was lucky enough to grab betrayal at calth and burning of prospero, but large resin kits are out of my price range, and with my collection limited to plastic there are relatively few different units I can field. Plus, I want the game to be accessible and inviting to new players, there are plenty of folks I know who'd love to play but can't justify the expense of resin kits - the Heresy has a reputation for being a game for more experienced players that harks back to older editions, and I love that nostalgia factor, but we also have to accept that the gatekeeping that still persists in all GW games was even worse in the past, and having a diverse and growing player base requires at least *some* accessible point of entry into 30k.

 

The biggest point of comparison for me right now is Titanicus, being set in the same era and primarily consisting of mirror-matches in a similar vein to 30k, as well as the obvious design similarities in the rulebooks. Titanicus bundles are some of the best value box sets across GW's entire range, with the starter set being better than half-price compared to buying its contents separately, as well as providing a fantastic point of entry into the game. Lowering the barrier for entry invites new players, encourages lapsed players to re-invest and makes collecting easier for the current player base as well.