State of the Union (Heresy)

[Cris R]

I think there’s a lot more nuance to the criticisms of the state of 30k on this thread and other venues. It’s true that sometimes “we want more support” means getting a lot of new miniature releases and a significant uptick in Black Books. But I think what folks mean when they “want more support” is to receive equal treatment as the other major GW and Specialist systems, including regularly updated FAQs, regular communication, and a starter set. And there are some folks who fall in between these two camps, so it’s not totally black or white.

 

So I think the community certainly can help out with maintaining the system’s longevity, but the three equal treatment asks would go a long way to making sure the game has the capacity to keep bringing in new players and making the game feel more complete.

[MegaVolt87]

Accessibility + value are definitely issues holding HH back. How do you sell a game to a new player with high $$$ resin vehicles/ basic infantry, smaller player base, can't play in a GW store, no regular rules + FAQ support, no models for units they might like or its been discontinued? Why should they start when 40k has value buy ins now, everything is in plastic, regular rules updates + FAQ's, large community and can play in a GW store? In OZ for example, I know many people who could actually afford to play HH but don't because they don't want to because resin is hard to work with and the community is smaller also. So, they have 2-3+ 40k armies instead of 1 HH one and 1-2+ 40k armies. Great HH isn't dying in your local, its a different story for others, very flippant to dismiss HH is dying because it literally is for a lot of other communities internationally. Tired of this *REDACTED* got mine attitude in the hobby these days.  HH needs attention and more development full stop. 

[Morngrym]

I think there’s a lot more nuance to the criticisms of the state of 30k on this thread and other venues. It’s true that sometimes “we want more support” means getting a lot of new miniature releases and a significant uptick in Black Books. But I think what folks mean when they “want more support” is to receive equal treatment as the other major GW and Specialist systems, including regularly updated FAQs, regular communication, and a starter set. And there are some folks who fall in between these two camps, so it’s not totally black or white.

 

So I think the community certainly can help out with maintaining the system’s longevity, but the three equal treatment asks would go a long way to making sure the game has the capacity to keep bringing in new players and making the game feel more complete.

 

This about sums it up for me, especially that last part.  Any gaming system will inevitably lose players as the years drft by (life gets in the way sometimes, people find other interests, whatever), so it is important to keep a steady stream of new players coming into the game just to replentish the natural attrition that occurs.  Things like a starter set and having other Heresy shrink-wrapped boxes on the shelf at the local GW store certainly help make this happen.

 

Speaking of items at the GW stores - my local store has actually stopped carrying the shrink-wrapped MKIII and MKIV Heresy boxes.  I'm not sure when this happened because I bought a box there a couple years ago and haven't been in there during the pandemic until just recently again, but I needed to replenish my MKIV and they didn't have any.  I asked the manager and he said it was basically an online-only item for their store now due to shelf space.  Maybe others are also like this, I don't know.   

[Sarvis]

 

 

I think there’s a lot more nuance to the criticisms of the state of 30k on this thread and other venues. It’s true that sometimes “we want more support” means getting a lot of new miniature releases and a significant uptick in Black Books. But I think what folks mean when they “want more support” is to receive equal treatment as the other major GW and Specialist systems, including regularly updated FAQs, regular communication, and a starter set. And there are some folks who fall in between these two camps, so it’s not totally black or white.

 

So I think the community certainly can help out with maintaining the system’s longevity, but the three equal treatment asks would go a long way to making sure the game has the capacity to keep bringing in new players and making the game feel more complete.

This about sums it up for me, especially that last part. Any gaming system will inevitably lose players as the years drft by (life gets in the way sometimes, people find other interests, whatever), so it is important to keep a steady stream of new players coming into the game just to replentish the natural attrition that occurs. Things like a starter set and having other Heresy shrink-wrapped boxes on the shelf at the local GW store certainly help make this happen.

 

Speaking of items at the GW stores - my local store has actually stopped carrying the shrink-wrapped MKIII and MKIV Heresy boxes. I'm not sure when this happened because I bought a box there a couple years ago and haven't been in there during the pandemic until just recently again, but I needed to replenish my MKIV and they didn't have any. I asked the manager and he said it was basically an online-only item for their store now due to shelf space. Maybe others are also like this, I don't know.

Over here in the greater Seattle area, the GW stores don’t carry mk3 or 4. Honestly not sure if they even ever have

[Gorgoff]

I don't like MKVI for any of my legions and don't think that it would make any sense at all to do a box full of them, but if that friend of a friend who knows a friend, who had some pics ;) is right I am happy for every AL and RG player out there.

[LameBeard]

I had to get mk iii ordered into store a little while ago, I think they’ve been missing from shelves (along with a lot of other kits in an inventory purge) a while ago.

 

And the guy serving me when I went to collect was like “mmm, Mark iii marines, this is making me think I should get some”

[Kenzaburo]

Like lots of a bit more niche units, MK3 and MK4, along with their Terminator counterparts were moved to online only at least 1.5 years ago. 

 

My local GW is pretty tiny, so they carry most of the primaris stuff, a smattering of firstborn and that's it. Same goes for other non-marine armies - some central kits and a start collecting box and that's it. And don't get me started on terrain. But on the other hand, you can't even get the sector imperialis terrain online anymore and on ebay people charge insane prices for the basilicanum and such.

 

One reason definitely is the limited shelf space in many stores, the other the problematic supply situation because of the *expletive here* pandemic.

[Pacific81]

For the MkIII boxes I assume there is a shortage, as I have seen someone selling one the other day in the FB groups for the standard RRP price (which you would never usually be able to do as most traders sell for at least -10%)

[Bung]

There are 2 things for this.

First its limited shelf space. The GW Stores i have seen are rather small and cant stock anything.

Thats one of the reasons why they offer that your order can be send to pick up too.

 

Second point is, they want to sell the new stuff. New stuff has to make back its investment in moulds etc.

 

Third Point, they can save money, as the mail order only stuff comes in the blank white boxes with stickers. No need for the other printed boxes.

[Augusta_Vespa]

 

Well how far along was what you saw? Was it the final box, concept sketches, bare plastic minis, sprues, painted minis? Which legions ? If you cannot say what it exactly is, what about the state of it? You may have seen something that is in ongoing development, not necessarily something that is fit for release anytime soon.

 

Two fully painted completed armies in battle. It looked like something promotional from a White Dwarf spread and I've already mentioned the two Legions. The power armour is Mk 6 but modernized. I saw five plastic kits in total and I'd say based on what I saw yes it is ready to be released, I was told this year.  

 

I think what you most likely saw was one of the battle spreads from the Core 2.0 Rulebook background section by the sound of it ;). 

[sarabando]

My local flgs gets in boxes of MK3 regularly and they usually are gone within a day or two. As for the cost issue for getting people into heresy with the latest 40k releases 5 Mk6 marines + a pack of bolters sets you back about the same as a unit of heavy intercessors and characters wise we are pretty much equal.

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

The primary issue for me is accessibility - I was lucky enough to grab betrayal at calth and burning of prospero, but large resin kits are out of my price range, and with my collection limited to plastic there are relatively few different units I can field. Plus, I want the game to be accessible and inviting to new players, there are plenty of folks I know who'd love to play but can't justify the expense of resin kits - the Heresy has a reputation for being a game for more experienced players that harks back to older editions, and I love that nostalgia factor, but we also have to accept that the gatekeeping that still persists in all GW games was even worse in the past, and having a diverse and growing player base requires at least *some* accessible point of entry into 30k.

 

The biggest point of comparison for me right now is Titanicus, being set in the same era and primarily consisting of mirror-matches in a similar vein to 30k, as well as the obvious design similarities in the rulebooks. Titanicus bundles are some of the best value box sets across GW's entire range, with the starter set being better than half-price compared to buying its contents separately, as well as providing a fantastic point of entry into the game. Lowering the barrier for entry invites new players, encourages lapsed players to re-invest and makes collecting easier for the current player base as well. 

It's pretty much this. I've had one or two people who want to do Angel's Wrath Rite of War, but don't want to spend the ridiculous money it would require to get all the appropriate looking jump packs. If they were in plastic, that would make it so much easier, and as you say - accessibility. 

 

The hobby itself has become much more accessible over the last five years. The introduction of "Start Collecting!" has gone a long way to ensure people aren't as afraid to dip their toes in. Also, the end of the year holiday bundle/battle boxes that they've been doing - also for a few years now, have been a boon.

 

It would serve well to dish out some accessibility to 30k. It sounds like it's coming, in some form.

 

I'm glad to hear the community is alive and well . Griz from here on the B&C and our mate Jay are dragging me off to a tournament next February and I am really looking forward to getting into the tournament scene and meeting people. 

OoooOh - what force are you thinking? A Legion? Militia? Daemons of the Ruinstorm? :D 

 

Accessibility + value are definitely issues holding HH back. How do you sell a game to a new player with high $$$ resin vehicles/ basic infantry, smaller player base, can't play in a GW store, no regular rules + FAQ support, no models for units they might like or its been discontinued? Why should they start when 40k has value buy ins now, everything is in plastic, regular rules updates + FAQ's, large community and can play in a GW store? In OZ for example, I know many people who could actually afford to play HH but don't because they don't want to because resin is hard to work with and the community is smaller also. So, they have 2-3+ 40k armies instead of 1 HH one and 1-2+ 40k armies. Great HH isn't dying in your local, its a different story for others, very flippant to dismiss HH is dying because it literally is for a lot of other communities internationally. Tired of this *REDACTED* got mine attitude in the hobby these days.  HH needs attention and more development full stop. 

I wasn't meaning to be dismissive towards you, my apologies. I've just noticed (personally) that there's a habit of people perpetuating the rumor that the system is 'dead, niche, too few players' that i've experienced. It's like an urban-myth, not necessarily true and yet people sort of reflexively have the words come out. Like carrots being good for your eyesight, yeah?

 

 

 

 

 

I think there’s a lot more nuance to the criticisms of the state of 30k on this thread and other venues. It’s true that sometimes “we want more support” means getting a lot of new miniature releases and a significant uptick in Black Books. But I think what folks mean when they “want more support” is to receive equal treatment as the other major GW and Specialist systems, including regularly updated FAQs, regular communication, and a starter set. And there are some folks who fall in between these two camps, so it’s not totally black or white.

 

So I think the community certainly can help out with maintaining the system’s longevity, but the three equal treatment asks would go a long way to making sure the game has the capacity to keep bringing in new players and making the game feel more complete.

This about sums it up for me, especially that last part. Any gaming system will inevitably lose players as the years drft by (life gets in the way sometimes, people find other interests, whatever), so it is important to keep a steady stream of new players coming into the game just to replentish the natural attrition that occurs. Things like a starter set and having other Heresy shrink-wrapped boxes on the shelf at the local GW store certainly help make this happen.

 

Speaking of items at the GW stores - my local store has actually stopped carrying the shrink-wrapped MKIII and MKIV Heresy boxes. I'm not sure when this happened because I bought a box there a couple years ago and haven't been in there during the pandemic until just recently again, but I needed to replenish my MKIV and they didn't have any. I asked the manager and he said it was basically an online-only item for their store now due to shelf space. Maybe others are also like this, I don't know.

Over here in the greater Seattle area, the GW stores don’t carry mk3 or 4. Honestly not sure if they even ever have

 

I visited that Seattle area GW, the gent was really really cool. An amazing GW-store manager, who was more than enthusiastic about the hobby. I think he said he had something like 15k points of Eldar? 

 

Anyway, as frater Kenzaburo stated earlier, Mark 3 and Mark 4 marines are order-in now. Odd enough, back when I visited the local GW here in the big apple, they kept the plastic Praetor box stocked. 

 

 

[Sarvis]

 

 

The primary issue for me is accessibility - I was lucky enough to grab betrayal at calth and burning of prospero, but large resin kits are out of my price range, and with my collection limited to plastic there are relatively few different units I can field. Plus, I want the game to be accessible and inviting to new players, there are plenty of folks I know who'd love to play but can't justify the expense of resin kits - the Heresy has a reputation for being a game for more experienced players that harks back to older editions, and I love that nostalgia factor, but we also have to accept that the gatekeeping that still persists in all GW games was even worse in the past, and having a diverse and growing player base requires at least *some* accessible point of entry into 30k.

 

The biggest point of comparison for me right now is Titanicus, being set in the same era and primarily consisting of mirror-matches in a similar vein to 30k, as well as the obvious design similarities in the rulebooks. Titanicus bundles are some of the best value box sets across GW's entire range, with the starter set being better than half-price compared to buying its contents separately, as well as providing a fantastic point of entry into the game. Lowering the barrier for entry invites new players, encourages lapsed players to re-invest and makes collecting easier for the current player base as well.

It's pretty much this. I've had one or two people who want to do Angel's Wrath Rite of War, but don't want to spend the ridiculous money it would require to get all the appropriate looking jump packs. If they were in plastic, that would make it so much easier, and as you say - accessibility.

 

The hobby itself has become much more accessible over the last five years. The introduction of "Start Collecting!" has gone a long way to ensure people aren't as afraid to dip their toes in. Also, the end of the year holiday bundle/battle boxes that they've been doing - also for a few years now, have been a boon.

 

It would serve well to dish out some accessibility to 30k. It sounds like it's coming, in some form.

I'm glad to hear the community is alive and well . Griz from here on the B&C and our mate Jay are dragging me off to a tournament next February and I am really looking forward to getting into the tournament scene and meeting people.

OoooOh - what force are you thinking? A Legion? Militia? Daemons of the Ruinstorm? :D

Accessibility + value are definitely issues holding HH back. How do you sell a game to a new player with high $$$ resin vehicles/ basic infantry, smaller player base, can't play in a GW store, no regular rules + FAQ support, no models for units they might like or its been discontinued? Why should they start when 40k has value buy ins now, everything is in plastic, regular rules updates + FAQ's, large community and can play in a GW store? In OZ for example, I know many people who could actually afford to play HH but don't because they don't want to because resin is hard to work with and the community is smaller also. So, they have 2-3+ 40k armies instead of 1 HH one and 1-2+ 40k armies. Great HH isn't dying in your local, its a different story for others, very flippant to dismiss HH is dying because it literally is for a lot of other communities internationally. Tired of this *REDACTED* got mine attitude in the hobby these days. HH needs attention and more development full stop.

I wasn't meaning to be dismissive towards you, my apologies. I've just noticed (personally) that there's a habit of people perpetuating the rumor that the system is 'dead, niche, too few players' that i've experienced. It's like an urban-myth, not necessarily true and yet people sort of reflexively have the words come out. Like carrots being good for your eyesight, yeah?

 

 

 

 

I think there’s a lot more nuance to the criticisms of the state of 30k on this thread and other venues. It’s true that sometimes “we want more support” means getting a lot of new miniature releases and a significant uptick in Black Books. But I think what folks mean when they “want more support” is to receive equal treatment as the other major GW and Specialist systems, including regularly updated FAQs, regular communication, and a starter set. And there are some folks who fall in between these two camps, so it’s not totally black or white.

 

So I think the community certainly can help out with maintaining the system’s longevity, but the three equal treatment asks would go a long way to making sure the game has the capacity to keep bringing in new players and making the game feel more complete.

This about sums it up for me, especially that last part. Any gaming system will inevitably lose players as the years drft by (life gets in the way sometimes, people find other interests, whatever), so it is important to keep a steady stream of new players coming into the game just to replentish the natural attrition that occurs. Things like a starter set and having other Heresy shrink-wrapped boxes on the shelf at the local GW store certainly help make this happen.

 

Speaking of items at the GW stores - my local store has actually stopped carrying the shrink-wrapped MKIII and MKIV Heresy boxes. I'm not sure when this happened because I bought a box there a couple years ago and haven't been in there during the pandemic until just recently again, but I needed to replenish my MKIV and they didn't have any. I asked the manager and he said it was basically an online-only item for their store now due to shelf space. Maybe others are also like this, I don't know.

Over here in the greater Seattle area, the GW stores don’t carry mk3 or 4. Honestly not sure if they even ever have

I visited that Seattle area GW, the gent was really really cool. An amazing GW-store manager, who was more than enthusiastic about the hobby. I think he said he had something like 15k points of Eldar?

 

Anyway, as frater Kenzaburo stated earlier, Mark 3 and Mark 4 marines are order-in now. Odd enough, back when I visited the local GW here in the big apple, they kept the plastic Praetor box stocked.

Oh neat, I should have been less vague, I am referring to the lynnwood one, north of Seattle. Is that the one you went to? and yeah the guy there is really cool. Very helpful yet not pushy.

[Marshal Rohr]

30K as a community is very accessible. It was that long ago that people were complaining about the ‘part of the ship, part of the crew’ mantra. If anything I thought Twitter was mad that people tell people to play 30K. It’s can’t be both gatekeeping and telling people to ditch other systems. :D We need a new box set for entry so we can get that Ship and Crew comraderie back.

[Balerion84]

On slightly unrelated note from earlier of this thread...

 

Speaking of new players, I went through this thread and as someone new to 30k (2 games of ZM under my belt in last 2 weeks, and relatively new to 40k - started 2 years ago exactly), I'd just like to say, that I hope it never transitions into 40k ruleset (9th Ed, currently) and sticks with this 7th Ed ruleset or iteration of it (I never played pre 8th Ed 40k, so it's a 'new' system for me). Talk of this gives me nightmares :D

 

I'm already playing 40k and if it moved to the same ruleset, then, in my eyes, 30k as a game would simply stop existing. It'd just be 40k with a bit more expensive models.

 

I understand how great the move to 8th was from the point of getting in new players (I started in 8th after all), but I hope each sticks to their own system.

[LameBeard]

And remember the other mantra “the Heresy Train has no brakes!”

 

(It’s just been going up a steep bit of track lately)

[SkimaskMohawk]

There's always some conflating of the core complaints which are; the heresy game system has not had the same level of support as the other specialist systems and the heresy model range hasn't had the same support as the other specialist ranges. These both basically started around 2018 when necromunda and AT popped up and took off, with the model complaint compounded by having stuff discontinued.

 

Now the conflating and counter-complaining usually substitutes those issues with "community dying" and "no support for heresy setting". Both are obviously untrue which is why they get used a lot as strawmen by the counter complainers.

 

But the real issues are very real. The rules and models have stagnated compared to the other systems.

[Marshal Vespasian]

I mean on the other hand i have been painting my fists since q3/2019 with little to no sideprojects and still there is a bunch of models i'd want to paint for them additionally. Meaning: the range is very comohmrehensvie already.

Id be way more interested in some much needed rebalancing than in more releases that I actually need to paint. Give us some more cool rites of war and game modes.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Marshal Vespasian

[SkimaskMohawk]

I mean on the other hand i have been painting my fists since q3/2019 with little to no sideprojects and still there is a bunch of models i'd want to paint for them additionally. Meaning: the range is very comohmrehensvie already.

Id be way more interested in some much needed rebalancing than in more releases that I actually need to paint. Give us some more cool rites of war and game modes.

The range is pretty comprehensive. But it's shrunk and we're still missing universal unit choices. The Achilles is gone, the attack bike never got a model, the new bike options have no models, the nullifiers have no models. That...might actually be it if you don't count things like command squad/veteran/consul variants. But you add missing characters (like moturg for 9 years) and removal of legion upgrade stuff and it feels bad.

 

And again, the complaint is from 2018 onwards. We got a lot of legion specific stuff to support the releases of book 8 and 9, and a couple of legion specific praetors/dreads while necromunda, LOTR, blood bowl and whatever else get constant releases.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

30K as a community is very accessible. It was that long ago that people were complaining about the ‘part of the ship, part of the crew’ mantra. If anything I thought Twitter was mad that people tell people to play 30K. It’s can’t be both gatekeeping and telling people to ditch other systems. We need a new box set for entry so we can get that Ship and Crew comraderie back.

 

Gatekeeping typically refers to whom a community is inclusive towards and whom it chooses to exclude, which can often be exacerbated when a system is inaccessible through lack of a starter system for example, as it requires pre-existing knowledge of the system to even know what you need to start out. That's what I was talking about - if you don't know folks who play 30k, or your local 30k community isn't an inviting one, it's incredibly difficult to get started as we currently stand.

[Marshal Vespasian]

Hey sure Im just saying I dont eny the 9th ed or AoS guys for the speed.of their release cycle. Necromunda or Titanicus on the other hand thats a pace I could get behind. Especially in terms of books...

 

I have to say I read way more about the gatekeepiness in 2nd hand accounts of things that happened aomewhere somewhen than that I see it anywhere. Be that online or IRL. When I started heresy I played my first few games with my 40k black templars proxying as imperial fists and nobody batted an eye.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Marshal Vespasian

[jaxom]

 

I'd just like to say, that I hope it never transitions into 40k ruleset (9th Ed, currently) and sticks with this 7th Ed ruleset or iteration of it (I never played pre 8th Ed 40k, so it's a 'new' system for me). Talk of this gives me nightmares

 

I'm already playing 40k and if it moved to the same ruleset, then, in my eyes, 30k as a game would simply stop existing. It'd just be 40k with a bit more expensive models.

 

I think this is the problem that HH has in terms of expanding to people who are new to the mini hobby (or the GW side of it). It needs a really good delivery to get someone fresh on board if the pitch is, "It's just a slightly more complicated ruleset of 40k with a bit more expensive models." And, from my perspective, if someone is interested in legion scale battles - well that's why it was originally Epic.

[Cris R]

 

 

I'd just like to say, that I hope it never transitions into 40k ruleset (9th Ed, currently) and sticks with this 7th Ed ruleset or iteration of it (I never played pre 8th Ed 40k, so it's a 'new' system for me). Talk of this gives me nightmares

 

I'm already playing 40k and if it moved to the same ruleset, then, in my eyes, 30k as a game would simply stop existing. It'd just be 40k with a bit more expensive models.

I think this is the problem that HH has in terms of expanding to people who are new to the mini hobby (or the GW side of it). It needs a really good delivery to get someone fresh on board if the pitch is, "It's just a slightly more complicated ruleset of 40k with a bit more expensive models." And, from my perspective, if someone is interested in legion scale battles - well that's why it was originally Epic.

Exactly. And when people talk about making the rule set more accessible to new players, that sparks the same debate the 30k community has about what changes should be made and which ones shouldn’t. I’m pretty sure this thread covered this debate a few pages back, so it’s not worth rehashing.

 

But I do think any pitch should emphasize the the rules are a bit more complex but you’ve got a great, friendly community willing to help you out, friendly, easy-going narrative games, a rule set not subject to the constant edition, codex, and supplemental churn of 40k, and a game where you’re not going to be meta chasing, which can make 40k as - or even more - expensive as 30k. Few GW and non-GW game systems have all these things, so that’s a major plus for us.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Cris R

[sarabando]

i think theres some animosity that HH players "lost" alot of kits and we got kits like the necromunda squat chef etc

[Pacific81]

i think theres some animosity that HH players "lost" alot of kits and we got kits like the necromunda squat chef etc

Hey..you leave that Squat outa this! :D