State of the Union (Heresy)

[ShadowCore67]

 

 

 

 

Boo to matched pay.

Narrative > competitive.

That being said, yay for Heresy getting some attention like this!

The worst events I've played in have been narrative unfortunately. I've played in some lame tournaments, but nothing tops waiting 2 hours past the start time for the organizer to show up with the terrain, which is when we got the mission package, which then got changed mid event to be even more punitive towards traitors, had another big delay and ya....

 

Tournaments might skew too hard towards power builds, but at least everyone knows what they're getting into.

Thats about your event organizer.

Personly i loathe tourney and matched play since 4th Edition.

Playing against nearly the same (Chaos 2 lashprinces +9 Kyborgs) list 4 times in a row sucked all fun to play out of matched games in stores etc.

I guess my point was more that you have a much better idea of what you're getting into for a tournament since the culture of information and competition is there; the point is to win. What's the point of a campaign; to guarantee games in a week/month? Give motivation to slowly grow forces? To win it? I've seen a number of campaigns where everyone values something different and it lead to some expectations being let down, especially towards the end where some lists are just assembled far better than others.

 

In other experiences there's been a lot of a laissez-faire attitude when potential imbalances are called out with list building restrictions, or mission ideas, or campaign bonuses; like just because its narrative you can have imbalance or broken stuff and if players take advantage they should feel bad and be shamed because its narrative.

 

In tournaments the missions or terrain can suck, but you know it's going to be a competition from the start. Narrative stuff is more of a gamble because everything is more on being a good sport.

I think it just depends on who's organizing the campaign. I'd assume most 30k campaigns the overall goal is the loyalists or traitors winning, not everyone having their own individual goal. As for the other things I think it's just a matter of setting clear expectations with everyone involved. I'd never host a narrative campaign with strangers I'd never met before Day 1.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Me neither, but the point is that narrative has broader in scope and allows for a wider buy in, which is often a strength. But it's also a weakness. Bung for example can avoid tournaments because he knows he doesn't like what's being offered; I gotta parse each narrative event to see how well structured it is, see what the general attitude or goal is, how well any custom stuff actually interacts with the mechanics.

 

I guess I'm saying I'm lazy and don't like surprises?

[Bung]

Me neither, but the point is that narrative has broader in scope and allows for a wider buy in, which is often a strength. But it's also a weakness. Bung for example can avoid tournaments because he knows he doesn't like what's being offered; I gotta parse each narrative event to see how well structured it is, see what the general attitude or goal is, how well any custom stuff actually interacts with the mechanics.

 

I guess I'm saying I'm lazy and don't like surprises?

 

Lets say it really depends on the folks playing and what are the expections.

If an event is well organized everything is known in advance and the narrative stuff doesnt interact that much with the normal game.

 

One of my FLGS runs a summer expansion campaign either 40k or AoS.

To participate you pay 50€ and get a start collecting box which you will expand over the campaign (with stuff you buy in the store of course) but you will have 2 days in a week where the store is dedicated to this campaign with table, custom scenarios etc.

 

I would like to do that, but i dont find the time with work, but what i have seen its always fun for most of them.

 

The other point is what i have noticed is that people  comeing from P&P RPGs to tabletop are more relaxed and more into the narrative and have alot more sense what is fair on the long run.

 

I have been to narrrative events that werent much fun either with games stacked you would loose cause you wouldnt have a chance.

 

The Basic point is, you need the right set of people for the sort of games you want to play.

[Pacific81]

Going back some years before the FW books were released, the UK used to have some really great 30k narrative gaming events. There was a group called the Tempus Fugitives who were run by current/ex GW staffers and did pretty large events at WHW for the Great Crusade through to the Heresy. These were 'themed' events that you were provided a pack of information for and have to say they were pretty well run and entertaining games. Eventually think those guys ended up being hit by a C&D and were vilified for trying to charge money for the event packs (which contained GW imagery) and not sure if they are still about these days.

The Great Crusade forum also ran some that were super fun; much smaller in scale, but the forum owner had links to BL and even had a story for an event written by Graham McNeil at one point (which featured one of the Lost Legions and Primarchs!)

 

I've not played 40k competitively but have to be honest, in terms of how much fun you can have wargaming it would come in pretty far down the scale for me: I don't think I've played a wargame (perhaps Necromunda?) that's less suitable for tournament play, and that's not just the current edition but going back to 5th/6th edition. The game just isn't anywhere close to balanced, and the problem these days is the internet automatically spreads the broken list combinations that in the past people couldn't (or didn't have an inclination to) work out for themselves. That was probably why 2nd-4th edition got away with being a bit looser at the time. 

I have played other games at events with 40k tournaments ongoing and a couple of highlights I witnessed included someone playing an Ork horde and using a 2" measuring rule to make sure all of the infantry were fully spaced out through each movement phase; Also a guy immediately packing up his army once his opponent had laid his out on the tabletop and he saw the matchup. Wasn't funny about it at all, just nodded and said there was no point in playing, shook the other guys hand and conceded. 

I've not ever encountered anything like that in any of the games I have played tournaments in, and which I would say are much better suited to the format (Blood Bowl, Infinity, X-Wing etc)

 

The only caveat I would add to that is for people who can only ever play in whatever events are on and don't have a local club, and so must play at tournaments (beggars can'e be choosers and all that)

Edited August 20, 2021 by Pacific81

[depthcharge12]

Every Legion has had its rules, and by the time a new box is expected, the last update (crusade) will have been out over a year.

The time is absolutely ripe for a reboot and, even allowing for covid disruption, fits snugly within GW's 'lets update this now' time frame.

Eh, don’t underestimate their excuses. I’m waiting to see how long they will milk the delta variant.

 

It’s been a running gag in my heresy group to bring up new LotR releases. I honestly think they were meant as a faction for the heresy now and someone forgot :P

 

 

What do we have left on the plate?

- IF praetors (previewed, no pre order)

- SoH praetor (leaked)

- Possible SoH terminator praetor?

- Heresy box set (coming soon in a month ending in -er)

 

Other than specific praetors, are we just missing the new bike units? And the poor Arlatax…

[Hfran Morkai]

Argel Tal (previewed), The Khan, some of the Legion specific units that may never get actual models.

 

The Emperor of Mankind (he is mentioned in Inferno in Valdor's rules I think? Doesn't mean he'll get a model).

 

Do we still need 28mm Legio Sinister parts?

[ShadowCore67]

 

Every Legion has had its rules, and by the time a new box is expected, the last update (crusade) will have been out over a year.

The time is absolutely ripe for a reboot and, even allowing for covid disruption, fits snugly within GW's 'lets update this now' time frame.

Eh, don’t underestimate their excuses. I’m waiting to see how long they will milk the delta variant.

 

It’s been a running gag in my heresy group to bring up new LotR releases. I honestly think they were meant as a faction for the heresy now and someone forgot :P

 

 

What do we have left on the plate?

- IF praetors (previewed, no pre order)

- SoH praetor (leaked)

- Possible SoH terminator praetor?

- Heresy box set (coming soon in a month ending in -er)

 

Other than specific praetors, are we just missing the new bike units? And the poor Arlatax…

We're also missing a DA unique character (either Corswain or Sedras, although I'm willing to bet it'll be Corswain), Firewing Cabal, and Ironwing Automata. I think there's a few other legions missing specific units but I can't remember.

[sarabando]

White scars falcons claws, ultramarines storm squad and terminators, and iirc a load of early book characters

[Lucien Eilam]

The Emperor of Mankind (he is mentioned in Inferno in Valdor's rules I think? Doesn't mean he'll get a model).

 

They’d be mad to pass up the opportunity to sell the Emperor and Horus from the Adrian Smith artwork, with a diorama base. Even if there were no rules, it would sell like crazy.

[MCC]

Were also missing generic legion praetors for nearly half of the legions. Only White scars, Alpha legion, Nightlords, Space wolves, Dark angels, Blood angels, Thousand sons and Word bearers currently have both power armour and terminator varients with the Sons of Horus and Imperial fists on the way.

 

 

Disappointing there's been no legion dispatch so far today, hopefully this is because they're going to announce a preview on Sundays this week in warhammer! 

[Valkyrion]

Dark Angels: Both Praetors

Blood Angels: Both Praetors, Named Character

Ultramarines: None

Imperial Fists: Two named characters, both praetors due

White Scars: Both Praetors, named character

Space Wolves: Terminator Praetor and named character available generally, named character made but NLA

Iron Hands: Iron Father (praetor) only

Raven Guard: None

Salamanders: None

 

Alpha Legion: Both Praetors, Named character

Word Bearers: Both Praetors, Three named characters plus a fourth on the way

Night Lords: Both praetors, named character

Emperor's Children: No praetors, 2 named characters

Sons of Horus: At least one praetor on the way, three named characters

Thousand Sons: Terminator Praetor and named character available generally, named character made but NLA

World Eaters: Named character

Death Guard: Named character

Iron Warriors: None

 

So if every legion *needs* a terminator praetor, power armour praetor, primarch and named character then we're missing around 25 models. 

 

it wouldn't surprise me if several legion specific units are squatted, particularly the loyalist traitor legion characters now that we're ten years past betrayal, and I don't see a big clamour for thousand son psychic scouts or a raven guard specific storm eagle - IF we're going into a hard reset. 

If it's just a soft reset, or no reset at all then everything remains the same as it was before. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

it wouldn't surprise me if several legion specific units are squatted, particularly the loyalist traitor legion characters now that we're ten years past betrayal, and I don't see a big clamour for thousand son psychic scouts or a raven guard specific storm eagle - IF we're going into a hard reset. 

If it's just a soft reset, or no reset at all then everything remains the same as it was before. 

That doesn't make sense to me that they would squat the loyalist characters, as they just released Saul Tarvitz.

 

If they switch to a different format of campaign books, we're almost certainly going to see them revisit Istvaan III at some point.

[Claws and Effect]

raven guard specific storm eagle

 

I'd be thrilled if we got that, but realistically it wouldn't look that different from a regular one. The only difference in the profile is the addition of the Eclipse missiles, and the other differences are an upgraded sensor/jammer package, which wouldn't be visible on the model.

 

Praetors and an official model for Maun would be very welcome though.

[Corswain]

FW said from the begining that a lot of those early characters were never going to get models ie. those that were original to the Black Books so there is not much hope there. I do kind of like that though to keep that hobby freedom.

 

I was also thinking that I don't really need to see Praetors for every Legion but then I started picturing what they might do for an Iron Warriors pair.....

[Brofist]

Dark Angels: Both Praetors

Blood Angels: Both Praetors, Named Character

Ultramarines: None

Imperial Fists: Two named characters, both praetors due

White Scars: Both Praetors, named character

Space Wolves: Terminator Praetor and named character available generally, named character made but NLA

Iron Hands: Iron Father (praetor) only

Raven Guard: None

Salamanders: None

 

Alpha Legion: Both Praetors, Named character

Word Bearers: Both Praetors, Three named characters plus a fourth on the way

Night Lords: Both praetors, named character

Emperor's Children: No praetors, 2 named characters

Sons of Horus: At least one praetor on the way, three named characters

Thousand Sons: Terminator Praetor and named character available generally, named character made but NLA

World Eaters: Named character

Death Guard: Named character

Iron Warriors: None

 

So if every legion *needs* a terminator praetor, power armour praetor, primarch and named character then we're missing around 25 models. 

 

it wouldn't surprise me if several legion specific units are squatted, particularly the loyalist traitor legion characters now that we're ten years past betrayal, and I don't see a big clamour for thousand son psychic scouts or a raven guard specific storm eagle - IF we're going into a hard reset. 

If it's just a soft reset, or no reset at all then everything remains the same as it was before. 

 

Iron Warriors need warsmiths, Iron Hands do have a model for Iron Fathers, but not stuff for some of their named characters

 

[Noserenda]

Iron Warriors need havocs too in theory (though id rather have a more interesting special unit :P ) 

Its possible a revamp might see a few options that never had models dropped as part of "no models no rules" though afaik FW initially planned to make all the units and most special characters priorities obviously shifted or things didnt work out. We might see some version of "legends" even. 

 

[Indefragable]

Iron Warriors need havocs too in theory (though id rather have a more interesting special unit :P )

 

Its possible a revamp might see a few options that never had models dropped as part of "no models no rules" though afaik FW initially planned to make all the units and most special characters priorities obviously shifted or things didnt work out. We might see some version of "legends" even.

 

 

…more interesting in terms of models or rules?

[LongWarVet]

Think it would be a shame if we don't get models for all the special units (rather than characters). I would much prefer that to legion specific Praetors. Not so bothered about the Darkwing but Ultramarines could certainly do with some help on that front. Has there ever been any communication re: Ultramarines units?

 

Also add me to the list of people clamouring for Thousand Son psychic scouts and would be gutted if they never make the Iron Wing automata.

[Noserenda]

 

Iron Warriors need havocs too in theory (though id rather have a more interesting special unit )

 

 

…more interesting in terms of models or rules?

 

All of the above. So many interesting units they could have gone with like trench raider veterans, Stor-Besashk (Spelling?) those siege rhinos, hell even a heavy weapons squad with pavaises could be interesting but no, heavy support squad but better. zzz.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

Iron Warriors need havocs too in theory (though id rather have a more interesting special unit )

 

 

…more interesting in terms of models or rules?

All of the above. So many interesting units they could have gone with like trench raider veterans, Stor-Besashk (Spelling?) those siege rhinos, hell even a heavy weapons squad with pavaises could be interesting but no, heavy support squad but better. zzz.

The same argument can be made for a lot of different legion units, and while it's not an unfair one, it is missing a bit of depth.

 

There's a lot of "veteran squad but better" throughout the special units, but a number of legions have the beginnings of staple 40k incarnations. Night lords have early raptors; Ultramarines have early honour guard, ba have early sanguinary guard, fists have early black templars and so on until you get to the iron warriors who naturally have early havocs.

 

When forgeworld does expand on certain legions you can see them getting a bit more creative and pulling away from the standard archetype template and adding novel references like with kakophani, iron circle and contekar (if we believe they're just renamed atrementar).

 

Rules wise though, havocs are amazing and while they're blunt and straightforward, that's kind of the whole point of the iron warriors.

[Noserenda]

Mostly Havocs are just instantly vaporised or boltered to pieces :D

I would argue that all of those units at least have some thing different about how they operate to standard units, or even channel a unit that does not exist otherwise in 30k. Havocs are exactly heavy support squads but slightly better, they didnt really exist as a thing prior to the Iron Warriors black book and they make precisely zero sense in the context of the Iron Warriors way of war, which focuses typically on much larger guns or assault elements (Something the 30k list writers chose to ignore entirely for some reason).

I suspect tbh they grew more out of the Tempus fugitives packs where a special character sergeant granted similar abilities (And let you take a 20 marine heavy support squad for lols :D )  because there was a lot of close work at times there.

[Claws and Effect]

Still want at least rules for the Raven Guard Deliverers. They're the only Terminator unit I can think of that has been named (in a novel at least) that didn't have a tabletop representation.

 

I'd be okay with it if I had to kitbash them. Rules wise, Tartaros Terminators that get Ravens Talons as part of their base cost would be appropriate

 

Lore wise, they seem to be used either for the killing blow or as a distraction to draw reinforcements away from where the real objective is.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Claws and Effect

[SkimaskMohawk]

Mostly Havocs are just instantly vaporised or boltered to pieces :D

 

I would argue that all of those units at least have some thing different about how they operate to standard units, or even channel a unit that does not exist otherwise in 30k. Havocs are exactly heavy support squads but slightly better, they didnt really exist as a thing prior to the Iron Warriors black book and they make precisely zero sense in the context of the Iron Warriors way of war, which focuses typically on much larger guns or assault elements (Something the 30k list writers chose to ignore entirely for some reason).

 

I suspect tbh they grew more out of the Tempus fugitives packs where a special character sergeant granted similar abilities (And let you take a 20 marine heavy support squad for lols :D ) because there was a lot of close work at times there.

Idk, I've played a lot of games with multiple squads of havocs and mine never got instantly vaporized. Maybe because I got them the extremely complementary bunker and had sufficient threat saturation, but they always lasted until the later stages of the game at least against opponents with a lot of quality shooting units.

 

And sure you can argue, but I'll boil down the operating differences to "can get artificer armour, or jump packs or stronger melee weapons" templars for example only get artificer over a veteran squad; theres no operating differences because they are stuck with swords. You use the special melee units as better melee units with maybe more damage output due to their rules and weapons; havocs are used as better hss due to their rules and better wargear access.

 

Also not too sure what you mean by the rules writes missing the assault elements of the iron warriors. You don't take morale from shooting so you can always push up the board, hammer of Olympia lets you rapid fire and charge breach style, and Perturabo gives the army furious charge in the opponent deployment. It's the epitome of their fluff of grinding up the no man's land, breaching walls and doing some brutal melee combat.

 

Feels like you're missing a lot of the nuance.

[ShadowCore67]

Still want at least rules for the Raven Guard Deliverers. They're the only Terminator unit I can think of that has been named (in a novel at least) that didn't have a tabletop representation.

 

I'd be okay with it if I had to kitbash them. Rules wise, Tartaros Terminators that get Ravens Talons as part of their base cost would be appropriate

 

Lore wise, they seem to be used either for the killing blow or as a distraction to draw reinforcements away from where the real objective is.

Iron Hands don't have their Morlock terminators. Although I doubt they'll ever get them with having the gorgons.

[MCC]

 

Still want at least rules for the Raven Guard Deliverers. They're the only Terminator unit I can think of that has been named (in a novel at least) that didn't have a tabletop representation.

 

I'd be okay with it if I had to kitbash them. Rules wise, Tartaros Terminators that get Ravens Talons as part of their base cost would be appropriate

 

Lore wise, they seem to be used either for the killing blow or as a distraction to draw reinforcements away from where the real objective is.

Iron Hands don't have their Morlock terminators. Although I doubt they'll ever get them with having the gorgons.

 

 

 

You never know, They might do. The Death Guard have Grave Wardens and Death Shroud