What to expect from 9e CSM

[TrawlingCleaner]

Can someone familiar with the existing restrictions elaborate on the Termie issue please? My Termies are mostly axe, sword, and claws with combi-bolters which I would hope is safe from the dread hand of GW's changes?

 

I am also wondering about the EC trait, as it doesn't seem to be a good fit with the Icon of Excess if they're both doing the same sort of thing? Once you hit on WS2+ where else is there to go?

The Current Terminator kit has these weapons:

- 1 chain axe

- 1 chainfist

- 1 power sword

- 1 power axe

- 1 power maul

- 2 power fists

- 2 lightning claws

- 1 heavy flamer

- 1 reaper autocannon

- 5 combi-weapons

If this is a similar deal to the Blight lord terminators, per 5 Terminators you can only take the above equipment.

 

For the EC triat, if you're loaded up on Powerfists or Thunderhammers, they're always hitting on 2s. Other than that it's not much use

[Lord Marshal]

Can someone familiar with the existing restrictions elaborate on the Termie issue please? My Termies are mostly axe, sword, and claws with combi-bolters which I would hope is safe from the dread hand of GW's changes?

 

The current Chaos Terminator box only has 1 option for each melee weapon (except for x2 Power Fists). Under the new rules, you'd only be able to equip them as the options come in the box rather than say, two of them having a Chainaxe with two having Chainfists and one with a Power Sword, or three having Power Swords and two having Power Mauls, etc.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Lord Marshal

[WarriorFish]

[Cheex]

So if it's anything like Blightlords, as the rumour suggests, it means the base equipment will be combi-bolter and chainaxe. Other weapons will be limited to 1 per 5 models in the unit, except power fists and lightning claws which will be 2 per 5.

 

Which isn't really that different from the "efficient" loadout from 8th, tbh. People usually recommended only taking a couple of special weapons if you had the points. It wasn't until power axes became free that those started to be used instead of chainaxes.

 

It sucks for those of us with existing collections (I have 20 previous-edition terminators with a random selection of weapons, plus another 20 of the old metals in storage), but we'll find ways to adapt if the rules and strats for terminators are good enough.

 

At the very least, I hope GW puts the old loadout options into Legends so casuals can keep using their models.

 

Maybe some enterprising individual should start designing an STL pack containing the standard loadout so existing players can make their models 'legal' again.

[Khornestar]

For sure 3D printing is a great answer, but it just seems like such a pointless restriction to begin with.

 

Oh well. I'm not saying other people should feel this way, but I don't really care. If there are new restrictions, so be it. At least we have a new codex with an extra wound on everything. I know for some that is no consolation at all, but I hope there are ways people can make do rather than quit playing the unit/faction/game. I wouldn't blame anyone for choosing that path, but hopefully at least it's worth a shake.

 

By the way, do not buy the codex. Just wait for the rules/use battlescribe/waha. Just my soapbox moment which I'll stop now. it is certainly possible to have our cake and eat it too, in terms of not paying for things we don't like but still being able to play the game.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Khornestar

[Cryptix]

Ugggghhh, I'm holding out for that it's only combi weapons that get restricted like Blight lords and we can still take any number of power fists, power swords, and chain fists, but if their load out becomes too much of a pain in the ass I'll just switch completely to using Possessed or Chosen as the anvil unit in my lists.

[MegaVolt87]

Shock and denial. "Its still a rumour, technically GW isn't dumb enough to abandon 20+ years of design for terminators."

Pain and guilt. "How could they do this, I probably hurt the new CSM terminators  sculptors feelings being critical of the kit on the internet."

Anger and bargaining.  "Those *REDACTED* Absolute *REDACTED*I hope they *REDACTED*. Its not too late, I'll accept a FAQ or CA unit card, campaign book change, a codex reprint...

Depression. "CSM terminators were the cornerstones of my collection, army and playstyle. I don't think I can enjoy the faction the same without them. Why can't CSM have nice things?"

The upward turn. "I still have the models I built, they are as beautiful as the day I finished them."

Reconstruction and working through. "I can work on my unfinished terminators and then I don't have to buy more. They will look nice on the shelf all together. Might still be good for HH even"

Acceptance and hope. "Some extra wrinkles might grow on the 40k devs brains in time and we can end this scourge of fixed box loadout foolishness in 10th edition. Jully 2022 will mark 2 years of 9th edition, so in under a year after that 10th edition might fix the problem." 

 

- CSM Terminator stan un-ironically in shambles. 

[Galron]

Lets hope for the grain of salt on the terminators. That would kill chaos for me. The whole point since the beginning was that chaos terminators could be equipped any way thats needed. Thats always been the difference between them and loyalist. Now they want to screw us over. I dont have a chaos army that has less than 2 units of terminators, thats a lot of money invested in useless units. I know we saw the writing on the wall when GW bent over the DG terminators, but I hoped that was a nerf because DG have other terminator units. I actually had two more boxes of terminators I was going to use when the DG terms got screwed over seeing the potential. Hell, my Iron Warrior army as standard uses three units, each with their own role. Grrr

[techsoldaten]

 

Shock and denial. "Its still a rumour, technically GW isn't dumb enough to abandon 20+ years of design for terminators."

Pain and guilt. "How could they do this, I probably hurt the new CSM terminators  sculptors feelings being critical of the kit on the internet."

Anger and bargaining.  "Those *REDACTED* Absolute *REDACTED*I hope they *REDACTED*. Its not too late, I'll accept a FAQ or CA unit card, campaign book change, a codex reprint...

Depression. "CSM terminators were the cornerstones of my collection, army and playstyle. I don't think I can enjoy the faction the same without them. Why can't CSM have nice things?"

The upward turn. "I still have the models I built, they are as beautiful as the day I finished them."

Reconstruction and working through. "I can work on my unfinished terminators and then I don't have to buy more. They will look nice on the shelf all together. Might still be good for HH even"

Acceptance and hope. "Some extra wrinkles might grow on the 40k devs brains in time and we can end this scourge of fixed box loadout foolishness in 10th edition. Jully 2022 will mark 2 years of 9th edition, so in under a year after that 10th edition might fix the problem." 

 

- CSM Terminator stan un-ironically in shambles. 

 

 

Response: if limiting options to the sprue is the new thing, does that also mean Chaincannon Havoc squads are a thing of the past?

 

AFAIK, you only get one Chaincannon.

 

Maybe GW decided Terminators need this restriction, but I'd wait to see the rules before freaking out.

[Clockworkchris]

I was told they can take whatever they want (havocs) Edited January 26, 2022 by Clockworkchris

[Khornestar]

 

 

 

Shock and denial. "Its still a rumour, technically GW isn't dumb enough to abandon 20+ years of design for terminators."

Pain and guilt. "How could they do this, I probably hurt the new CSM terminators sculptors feelings being critical of the kit on the internet."

Anger and bargaining. "Those *REDACTED* Absolute *REDACTED*I hope they *REDACTED*. Its not too late, I'll accept a FAQ or CA unit card, campaign book change, a codex reprint...

Depression. "CSM terminators were the cornerstones of my collection, army and playstyle. I don't think I can enjoy the faction the same without them. Why can't CSM have nice things?"

The upward turn. "I still have the models I built, they are as beautiful as the day I finished them."

Reconstruction and working through. "I can work on my unfinished terminators and then I don't have to buy more. They will look nice on the shelf all together. Might still be good for HH even"

Acceptance and hope. "Some extra wrinkles might grow on the 40k devs brains in time and we can end this scourge of fixed box loadout foolishness in 10th edition. Jully 2022 will mark 2 years of 9th edition, so in under a year after that 10th edition might fix the problem."

 

- CSM Terminator stan un-ironically in shambles.

 

Response: if limiting options to the sprue is the new thing, does that also mean Chaincannon Havoc squads are a thing of the past?

 

AFAIK, you only get one Chaincannon.

 

Maybe GW decided Terminators need this restriction, but I'd wait to see the rules before freaking out.

Would for sure agree with the last point. We’ll see what ends up happening but fwiw the rumor is havocs didn’t lose options and only gained a wound.

[sitnam]

Any word on the other Renegades? I'm a huge fan of Renegades chapters and I'd hate to see them lose their variety. Maybe CSM will finally get custom traits Edited January 26, 2022 by sitnam

[Lexington]

I imagine that the full Terminator options will be in Legends. If not, it’ll be very, very easy to fix - just take the “every five” restriction off, and Terminators are back to normal. If an opponent gives you guff over either option, just stare at them so hard that they either relent or until their head goes Scanners all over the place.

[Irate Khornate]

I have the feeling this has to do with chosen getting models. They've decided terminators are the anvil and chosen the hammer. Edited January 26, 2022 by Irate Khornate

[She Who Thirsts]

I have the feeling this has to do with chosen getting models. They've decided terminators are the anvil and chosen the hammer (literally since it was stated they all can take thunder hammers).

 

This hasn't been confirmed at all and until Chris or another leaker has properly confirmed it, would be easier to not make that assumption.

 

What I want to know now is if we will have any changes to current equipment options or new equipment all together.  Daemon Weapons, Master Crafted power weapons, would be a dream.

Edited January 26, 2022 by She Who Thirsts

[Irate Khornate]

 

 

I have the feeling this has to do with chosen getting models. They've decided terminators are the anvil and chosen the hammer (literally since it was stated they all can take thunder hammers).

This hasn't been confirmed at all and until Chris or another leaker has properly confirmed it, would be easier to not make that assumption.

I've edited my previous statement while you were replying.

[Khornestar]

 

I have the feeling this has to do with chosen getting models. They've decided terminators are the anvil and chosen the hammer (literally since it was stated they all can take thunder hammers).

 

This hasn't been confirmed at all and until Chris or another leaker has properly confirmed it, would be easier to not make that assumption.

What I want to know now is if we will have any changes to current equipment options or new equipment all together. Daemon Weapons, Master Crafted power weapons, would be a dream.

Oh man that would be sweet, and long overdue. My prediction is no but maybe we’ll be surprised.

 

Another thing: I want to finally have an equivalent to character upgrades, similar to chapter master etc. Word Bearers can upgrade a dark apostle this way and it is absolutely awesome. This is lacking, and since they are making this new codex pretty analogous to the loyalist version in some ways from the sounds of it, it is at least possible maybe?

Edited January 26, 2022 by Khornestar

[Maschinenpriester]

I imagine that the full Terminator options will be in Legends. If not, it’ll be very, very easy to fix - just take the “every five” restriction off, and Terminators are back to normal. If an opponent gives you guff over either option, just stare at them so hard that they either relent or until their head goes Scanners all over the place.

The restrictions are in the datasheet for DG so legends would not work. But in friendly games the best would be to just ignore it i think.

[She Who Thirsts]

That would be awesome but I would be prepared to not see anything specific like that.  So probably no Warsmith for Iron Warriors, but maybe an upgrade to turn the Warpsmith into a Master smith type like in Codex Marines.

[Plague _Lord]

I bet GW's thought process on terminator loudouts was something like this:

 

Exec 1: Hey you think chaos terminators should have the option to equip whatever they want, being renegades and not adhering to any codes or rules?

 

Exec 2: Sure, but let's limit the loadouts to the code of whatever comes in the box.

 

Exec 1: So every member will HAVE to take different wargear!? Wow so chaotic, so fluffy, I'm 100% CSM fans will love this!

 

Honestly, they could make so much more money off us with an upgrade sprue giving the options to make a squad with all the same options. GW really hates chaos for some reason - I mean look at the fun rules that are comming with the Tau and Eldar codexes. Hell, look at the rules even GSC got - fun and fluffy, while it sounds chaos will just get exploding 6s lol.

[Ezekyle_Abaddon]

This news is quite disheartening to say the least. I'm rather lucky that I only have one terminator unit with just chainaxes and com-bolters, which will hopefully be the default option. 

The warlord traits, relics, and stratagems being taken form F&F is a double edge sword. On one end, characters built with those relics and traits in mind can still be played effectively. On the other end, this makes it the 2nd reprinting of those rules, and leaves a bitter feeling that we don't get anything new to experiment with.

 

The other thing is that BL weren't in F&F. Are they're rules taken from vigilus? If so that would be quite crappy

[Dhar'Neth]

Terminator news killed all my excitement for this new book. I don’t care if cult troops are out but it irks me to no end that emperors children are still in. I mean… just why?! Its nuts

[She Who Thirsts]

Yeah, I know it's very early days, but from what I can gather, nothing I've seen so far is going to change in our ability to make viable armies, especially at top tables.  From how I feel, it would be optimistic to believe that our codex will be mid to low tier and it's probably still best for us to lean as heavily as possible on daemon engines.  And yeah,  CWE, Tau, and GSC got some really cool rules and ideas and even things that sound crazy and we're getting, exploding 6's and repurposed rules from F&F.

 

My main focus here is obviously Iron Warriors, and when I look at the Trait, I'm still trying to decide if it's worse than the Imperial fist trait or not.  Is that protection against low ap weapons really that good when you're an elite infantry force where it's best to take high ap weapons against anyway?  The Super Doctrine looks good on paper but I also feel that it'll be a 'do nothing' like most turn one shooting abilities due to the meta being 'hide in case you go first'.

 

Icons being actually useful is nice though.

Edited January 26, 2022 by She Who Thirsts

[hierojin]

Say what you will about GW limiting the options in boxes of Terminators/Havocs/normal CSM.

 

And I can understand people who invested lots of time and money into converting their (soon to be invalid) squads into pure plasma bombs or such.

 

BUT

for me personally it is quite relieving not having to search ebay or 3rd party for plasma/melta/chaincannon bits to make my squads "competative".  

Not having to magnetize every arm and every gun... keeps a little pressure of me while assembling new models.

 

I am really looking forward to explore a new codex and all the "new" ways to play my Iron Warriors, Night Lords and Creations of Bile. ^.^

[DesuVult]

The rules in general seem quite bad. Doctrines are not good in general. For melee armies they can be serviceable activating turn 3 but for rapid fire they tend to feel rather poor and and particularly for heavy weapon doctrines they are abysmal.

The legion traits mostly seem pretty weak and will not matter against quite a few armies. IW, for example, want enemies to use cover but their rules remove any benefit of cover except to block LoS so their enemies can simply not get into cover but work to remain behind it when possible or as far in front as they desire. Objective markers cannot be placed in terrain in matched play. There is a large amount of AP -3 and is the traditional method of removing marines. Armies such as Eldar jump from AP 0 to AP -3 in most circumstances and AP -3 appears increasingly common for them and other armies.

CSM do not have the wealth of weapon or unit options loyalists do in order to utilize these style of rules and even loyalists have suffered in trying to make them work. The loyalist marines armies able to form comfortable lists tend to do so from rules other than their turn based doctrine and for some with little concern for their chapter traits. That does leave some potential but I am personally doubtful. The mention of D4 plasma from forgefiends leads me to believe that the Daemonsmith warlord trait has been changed from +1 hit on 6s to hit to +1 damage on 6s to wound based on the mention of supplement rules mostly remaining.

The only rule that stands out to me is the Black Legion trait. +1 to hit against the nearest enemy is quite powerful and feels like it would be fun. There is even a reasonable chance to get much doctrines usage with exploding 5s hitting on 2+ turns 2 and 3.

It is annoying that these leaks would spell out that GW has little concern for CSM if confirmed though. Multiple options removed and getting second hand loyalist rules already considered an edition out of date.

Edited January 26, 2022 by DesuVult