What to expect from 9e CSM

[techsoldaten]

The Black Legion one is the most obvious - turning the exploding 6s on Rapid Fire into exploding 5s can only happen while that doctrine is active, unless for some reason it just totally overwrites the existence of the tactical doctrine for them, which would be nonsensical imo.

 

Have to say, the leaks (overall) seem awfully restrained.

 

Hard to handicap Black Legion until we know what's going on with Abaddon and Stratagems. He made many of my 8th edition armies and can turn good units into monsters.

 

If he still has a full reroll aura, things like Thunderhammer Chosen with exploding 6s become IK hunters. If World Killers is still a Stratagem, 20-man Cultist units become supremely powerful for capturing points.

[Clockworkchris]

Time for an update post

 

SM doctrine:

• Similar to SM Doctrine, except exploding 6s (unmodified hits) instead of +1AP. Still 3 levels that affefct different weapons (the weapons listed below are not confirmed by my sources, but the ones in the legion traits are confirmed by my sources as well as the namez, so what I am about to list may be subject to change)
• Destruction ''Doctrine'': Heavy/grenade
• Massacre ''Doctrine'': Rapid fire/assault/pistol
• Slaughter ''Doctrine'': Assault/pistol/melee

Marks:

• Can only be applied to CORE & CHARACTERS

 

Icons:

• vengeance +1 CA
• wrath +1ap melee
• flame +1ap shooting
• excess +1 to hit melee
• despair 6s to hit = autowound

 

• All legions are getting 6 WT, 8 relics & 8 stratagems each (seems to be a lot from F&F but with some tweaks)

 

Legion traits:

 

NL

• -2LD & -1CA @ 9''
• +1 to advance & +1 to charges
• Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee vs below half strenght unit or LD 6 and below = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

 

IW

• Ignores cover
• Reduce ap1/2 by 1
• Wanton Destruction: Heavy/grenade vs vehicules/buildings/units in cover = +1 to wound (Super doctrine)

 

WB

• Charges/HI = reroll hits
• 5+++ vs MW
• Wanton Slaughter: When using a pistol/assault/melee = 6s to wound cause 1MW (capped @ 3MW per unit) (Super doctrine)

 

BL

• ignore CA
• +1  to hit when charge or shoot closest unit
• Wanton Massacre: rapid fire/assault/pistol = exploding 5s (hit) (Super doctrine)

 

EC (4chain leak, not from my sources)

• in the book
• have a way of consistently hitting on 2s (even with thunder hammers)

WE

• Not in the codex

Red corsairs

• In the codex

 

Creations of Bile

• In the codex

 

Datasheet info:

 

Cypher

• In the codex

 

Cult units (berzerkers/rubrics/plague marines, only noise marines are stille in the codex because EC wont be getting their own book very soon)

• Are no longuer in the codex
• Act like harlequins in CWE army,  or like Scions in Guard (including them is like including fabius bile, it doesnt cancel you legion trait)
• Always Elites
• can benefit from army rules
• Cannot gain a legion trait

Fallen

• No in the codex

Chosen

• 3w
• can use TH (unconfirmed)

Terminators

• Loadout options similar to DG blightlords

 

Mutilators

• no longer in the book

 

Warp talon

• lost cancel overwatch
• gained no fallback
• 5a (these are total with claws)

 

Raptors

• still have the -1LD aura
• +2a

 

Obliterators

• can shoot units that are in engagement range with them (like wraithguard)
• in melee they have powerfists without the -1 to hit
• 3 different shooting profiles

 

Havocs

• exactly the same as right now but 2w

 

Stratagems

• something to ignore invuls (4chan leak, so take with a grain of salt, leak said EC chosen could destory custodes hitting with TH on a 2+ and with strat ignore invul saves)
• NL deepstrike strat for jump packs, DS turn 1
• NL vox scream disables AURAS

Other:

• IW ectoplasma forgefiend can hit on 2+ and does flat 4 damage (damage buff is a WLT)
• New cultist unit HQ
• New mutant culstists

[WrathOfTheLion]

Interesting, I wonder if that means we'll see a supplement for Fallen using the existing datasheets, maybe in the next Vigilus book.

 

I'd love to do a small Fallen force, but I'm waiting for them to get something relatively stable as far as army rules go.

Edited January 26, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Toldavf]

ouufff those terminator rules.... thats bad news. 

[MDops]

I'm really hoping the cult unit thing falls through. Would be out of line of the other armies considering that both 1k sons and DG both can have their cult units as troops

[Marshal Loss]

Cult units being removed from the book? End of an era. It's a little sad in a way. EC getting put into their own codex can't happen soon enough for me.

 

Terminators getting the Blightlord treatment :cussing sucks though, no way around it.

 

Interesting, I wonder if that means we'll see a supplement for Fallen using the existing datasheets, maybe in the next Vigilus book.

 

I'd love to do a small Fallen force, but I'm waiting for them to get something relatively stable as far as army rules go.

I've never been quite sure why they don't just make "Fallen" a legion trait like everybody else. The overwhelming majority of them are for all intents and purposes just normal CSM at this point.

 

I am pleased to see Creations of Bile/Red Corsairs elevated; hopefully they have as many traits/options etc as the legions. As much as I love legions and think they should be at the heart of what CSM are, renegades deserve to not feel like second class citizens in their own codex.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

Interesting, I wonder if that means we'll see a supplement for Fallen using the existing datasheets, maybe in the next Vigilus book.

 

I'd love to do a small Fallen force, but I'm waiting for them to get something relatively stable as far as army rules go.

I've never been quite sure why they don't just make "Fallen" a legion trait like everybody else. The overwhelming majority of them are for all intents and purposes just normal CSM at this point.

 

I am pleased to see Creations of Bile/Red Corsairs elevated; hopefully they have as many traits/options etc as the legions. As much as I love legions and think they should be at the heart of what CSM are, renegades deserve to not feel like second class citizens in their own codex.

It would certainly be ideal if they just made Fallen a legion, but we aren't there yet . The main thing holding me back on them is you just don't know if they can be fielded, or whether they'll take something away...

 

For Red Corsairs, I'm a big fan of them getting elevated as well, I'd love to see them get as much as the Legions. Especially as they're taking Legions out (TS, DG and now WE), it'd be cool to see a bit more come in to take their place, instead of it feeling a little bit empty with eventually just Black Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Night Lords.

[Khornestar]

I guess my berzerkers are getting shelved until World Eaters get a codex, so it'll be fun to play with everything else in the book for a change.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Really disappointed about the cult units.  Im also confused... they get army rules but not legion traits?  Does that mean rubrics would benefit from exploding 6s and super doctrines but not legion traits?  That is a huge feelbadsy considering how OP drukhari has been for a year now.  Their codex was literally top tier every way you could play it but GW thinks that CSM cult troops shouldnt benefit from legion traits?  golly gee??

 

Oh... if zerkers aren't in the codex then how are they going to get 2w?

[Khornestar]

Really disappointed about the cult units.  Im also confused... they get army rules but not legion traits?  Does that mean rubrics would benefit from exploding 6s and super doctrines but not legion traits?  That is a huge feelbadsy considering how OP drukhari has been for a year now.  Their codex was literally top tier every way you could play it but GW thinks that CSM cult troops shouldnt benefit from legion traits?  golly gee??

 

Oh... if zerkers aren't in the codex then how are they going to get 2w?

 

Hmm good points. The bit on the cult troops is confusing for sure. If they're not in the codex, is there some kind of other reference to them?

[Toldavf]

 

Terminators getting the Blightlord treatment :cussing sucks though, no way around it.

 

I don't think i've seen anyone who likes the "in the box" weapons format. It's a shame that even if we could get the entire community to petition gw to stop it, they still probably wouldn't listen. 

 

Any word on what possesed will be like? their current rules are kinda bad and it would be nice to have them be less random and more reliant. Transhuman for any <legion> <demons> anyone? 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I would figure there would be a PDF for Berserkers, it's not exactly a spoiler that World Eaters are coming if they release Codex: Chaos Space Marines and they're not in it, they've given it away at that point.

 

There would need to be a temporal PDF supplement for World Eaters, like they did with Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Deathwatch/Blood Angels when Codex: Space Marines was released.

[Khornestar]

If true, at least havocs can continue to be armed however we want. Fingers crossed that the chosen kit has enough parts to equip everyone the same. Even if options are reduced, I'd rather that than sprinkle one of each.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Khornestar

[Clockworkchris]

I would figure there would be a PDF for Berserkers, it's not exactly a spoiler that World Eaters are coming if they release Codex: Chaos Space Marines and they're not in it, they've given it away at that point.

 

There would need to be a temporal PDF supplement for World Eaters, like they did with Dark Angels/Space Wolves/Deathwatch/Blood Angels when Codex: Space Marines was released.

 

 

I was told a PDF will be release to make them playable while the codex will be released later this year.

[Llagos_Tyrant]

That's going to be a real feel bad moment if we get 2 wounds CSM and then immediately my two units of Terminators become technically illegal because of how I've loaded them up and converted them. 

 

Strange if only Core and Characters can get marks. I guess that depends on what is Core, but shouldn't that mean at least anything with the Daemon keyword so that they have to align with a god?

 

Sad to hear Cult troops might be leaving the codex. That is a real spiritual loss from CSM. They've been in the codex for so long, it's a shame to hear that could be happening. Also causes problems for my idea of building a Black Legion list with Cult troops from each of the four gods.

 

Not sure how I feel on the Warlord Traits, Relics, and Stratagems being largely copy+paste from Faith and Fury. I've loved them and it's great to hear Legions may still get a lot of love, but I was kind of hoping for some new toys rather than a reprint of the same ones from the last few years.

 

Will have to see how the codex pans out. Reasons for optimism and concern.

 

Has anyone seen if there's anything like a Warband Maker, similar to a SM Chapter or Tau Sept customizer?

 

Also very interested in the Crusade rules, and hoping for some sort of Black Crusade/Conquest mechanic like Drukhari, Genestealer Cults, and Tau seemed to get.

[Lexington]

So Terminators become another unit where I get to explain to opponents that GW's loadout psychosis is their own problem, and not mine.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

So Terminators become another unit where I get to explain to opponents that GW's loadout psychosis is their own problem, and not mine.

I dont see how terminators will be good now.  The kit has 1 of each weapon but 2 claws, 2 fists.  It also only has 2 combi flamers, 2 combi meltas, 1 combi plasma.  What are we supposed to do with this?  Maybe bolter+ whatever is the cheapest 1 dmg weapon?  At least that unit would have a defined role.  

[tinpact]

I never thought of Word Bearers as close combat focused but definitely won't be complaining if those rumours are true.

Beats the hell out of being the morale legion!

 

 

Terminators

• Loadout options similar to DG blightlords

Honestly, not that bad - unless they keep chainaxes as the default loadout, in which case I'm going postal. I can see power fists and lightning claws staying as the "any model may replace their X" options like on Relic termies. Crossing my fingers. Combi-weapon bombs are definitely gone, and power weapons...did anyone use power mauls? Losing the ability to take full power swords/axes stings though.

 

Cult units is...pbbbthh. Granted, I always thought it didn't make a lot of sense for Tzeentch renegades to be using Rubrics, but If marks become more than a cosmetic upgrade I could at least see Chosen having a place again.

 

Interestingly, World Eaters not being in the book and no indication of the Purge/Scourged/Brazen Beasts/Flawless Host also suggests EC being the only mark-locked subfaction in the book, which is...strange.

[BrainFireBob]

<p>

Terminators

• Loadout options similar to DG blightlords

22 years and ungodly amounts of armies and dollars, and I've never been tempted to ragequit before. Surprising myself. My feelings about this are not sanguine.

[DesuVult]

 

 

Terminators

• Loadout options similar to DG blightlords

 

Are you able to ask what the Chosen loadout options are?

[MegaVolt87]

I can't. Terminators moving to be like DG loadouts I've already opened the exit door for CSM this edition. I need something amazing to not walk through it at this point if true. 

[Maschinenpriester]

Terminators beeing with limited loadouds is concerning. On the one hand i am happy i magnetized everything. But it feels unnecessary. What a horrible price to pay for our second wound.

I wonder how my gaming group will handle this.

Also wondering about the cult troops bit. So they are available but the datasheets are beeing taken from DG or TS codex? Weird...

Wondering what else is in store in the new codex.

[techsoldaten]

Well, this is quite the update.

 

I would not be too broken up about losing Cult Troops. Berzerkers are World Eaters, there's not that many good reasons to take them outside that army. Plague Marines are a little meh right now, the only thing I'd really be missing are Rubrics. Sounds like they would be outstanding with the Black Legion trait, and that would not be useful for them.

 

Not sure it's time to get worked up over Terminator Loadouts, will wait to see clearer language. They've always had options going beyond what's on the sprue, hard to see that changing.

 

Would love to hear more about changes to HQs. Very curious about Dark Apostles / Lord Discordants / Named Characters.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I wonder if Lucius the Eternal will finally get 4++ or remain the only chaos lord that has 5++ haha.

[Verbal Underbelly]

I'm similarly interested in the equipment options for chosen and chaos marines.