Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[Karhedron]

I wonder if Primaris Command squads would include special weapons. That would be interesting but contentially conflicting with the current Primaris mono-tasked squads.

[Orange Knight]

They might release some veteran style kit that allows customisation, but that kind of unit is really outmoded in the game as it stands.

What would be nice to see would be a Space Marine character kit that could be made into all sorts of characters, with different upgrade options.

It feels like an age since the Primaris range was expanded outside of chapter specific units, and a few HQ models for units that already existed. Hopefully GW will make a big wave of releases for the next codex.

[Karhedron]

19 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

It feels like an age since the Primaris range was expanded outside of chapter specific units, and a few HQ models for units that already existed. Hopefully GW will make a big wave of releases for the next codex.

Primaris got a big wave at the start of 9th that went on for months. BGVs, Eradicators, Assault Intercessors, Heavy Intercessors, Invader ATV, Outriders, Stormspeeders, Firestrike and Gladiators are all less than 2 years old.

[Marshal Reinhard]

That said I wouldn't mind some generic primaris about now. We've recently gotten marines in the form of beakies and other HH vehicles and such so I'm not holding my breath just yet. That said, I need to look over my Crusade's dreadnought armory, so GW, you might wanna do something about that Brutalist dread release schedule, eh? *nudge nudge wink wink*

[Lemondish]

12 hours ago, Black Blow Fly said:

PCS might seem like a veteran unit but truly it’s just a Primaris twist on the existing Crusader squad. The only vet is the SB .

My point wasn't that it seemed like a veteran unit, but that it included much more in the way of mixed wargear options than other Primaris units. Still isn't something like a true Veteran unit like the Firstborn, but still uniquely different with the flamers and shotguns you can mix in amongst rifles or close combat loadouts.

[Blindhamster]

Yeah I think when (not it) intercessors get a retool, they will suddenly get some options tbh. 

if you look at more recent units, the inclusion of a special/heavy/different weapon option is becoming more normal for primaris. 
 

it would also bridge the gap between the marine types which would go a long way toward eventually having it be “ use your models as whatever”

 

but yeah, I can’t see them holding off all that long on doing the jump infantry unit, honestly would be shocked if SM2 doesn’t come out around the same time along side a Titus model equipped similarly. 
 

we “know” about the dread and missile squad, which wound anything from fine to cool. 
 

still not sure we will see “primaris terminators” tbh, but could see them doing a melee gravis unit of some kind. 
 

for me I think the highest priority thing i would wish list for, is a “proper” veteran unit that is reminiscent of the Horus heresy veteran squad as something that has a a lot more varied options, similar to the sword brethren or chaos chosen

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Yeah I think when (not it) intercessors get a retool, they will suddenly get some options tbh. 

if you look at more recent units, the inclusion of a special/heavy/different weapon option is becoming more normal for primaris. 
 

it would also bridge the gap between the marine types which would go a long way toward eventually having it be “ use your models as whatever”

 

but yeah, I can’t see them holding off all that long on doing the jump infantry unit, honestly would be shocked if SM2 doesn’t come out around the same time along side a Titus model equipped similarly. 
 

we “know” about the dread and missile squad, which wound anything from fine to cool. 
 

still not sure we will see “primaris terminators” tbh, but could see them doing a melee gravis unit of some kind. 
 

for me I think the highest priority thing i would wish list for, is a “proper” veteran unit that is reminiscent of the Horus heresy veteran squad as something that has a a lot more varied options, similar to the sword brethren or chaos chosen

People keep talking about a ‘melee gravis unit’ but we already have that…

[Blindhamster]

10 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

People keep talking about a ‘melee gravis unit’ but we already have that…

You mean aggressors? They have power fists but they’ve never been portrayed as primarily a melee unit. Much like regular terminators are not.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

You mean aggressors? They have power fists but they’ve never been portrayed as primarily a melee unit. Much like regular terminators are not.

I mean, I’d say the power fists combined with short range, rather weak shooting indicates they’re a melee unit.

saying they’re not a melee unit because of their ranged weapons to me is like saying BGV isn’t a melee unit because they have pistols.

[Blindhamster]

12 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I mean, I’d say the power fists combined with short range, rather weak shooting indicates they’re a melee unit.

saying they’re not a melee unit because of their ranged weapons to me is like saying BGV isn’t a melee unit because they have pistols.

Their rules (when they actually had some lol) were all about their shooting. They have power fists sure, but again, so do terminators. They’re a close support unit but they aren’t a dedicated melee unit. 
 

they can melee, but the majority of their use was because of their shooting output, since the rules got removed they haven’t been anywhere near as popular - because their melee output is alright but hitting on 4s across the board makes them pretty niche in their melee use. 
 

but we can agree to disagree, it’s cool :)

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

41 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I mean, I’d say the power fists combined with short range, rather weak shooting indicates they’re a melee unit.

saying they’re not a melee unit because of their ranged weapons to me is like saying BGV isn’t a melee unit because they have pistols.

Well, except that while BGV have the Veteran force org symbol (essentially a non-statement on their ranged/melee classification), Aggressors are classed as "Fire Support" which is basically the opposite of melee. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Lord Nord

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

You mean aggressors? They have power fists but they’ve never been portrayed as primarily a melee unit. Much like regular terminators are not.

I mean, I’d say the power fists combined with short range, rather weak shooting indicates they’re a melee unit.

saying they’re not a melee unit because of their ranged weapons to me is like saying BGV isn’t a melee unit because they have pistols.

25 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Their rules (when they actually had some lol) were all about their shooting. They have power fists sure, but again, so do terminators. They’re a close support unit but they aren’t a dedicated melee unit. 
 

they can melee, but the majority of their use was because of their shooting output, since the rules got removed they haven’t been anywhere near as popular - because their melee output is alright but hitting on 4s across the board makes them pretty niche in their melee use. 
 

but we can agree to disagree, it’s cool :)

‘Tactical’ terminators also have medium range shooting, and access to heavy guns like missile launchers and assault cannons, they make them better at range than in melee.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

Well, except that while BGV have the Veteran force org symbol (essentially a non-statement on their ranged/melee classification), Aggressors are classed as "Fire Support" which is basically the opposite of melee. 

Considering as they stand their shooting is pretty trash, and I’ve only ever had any good results from them in melee, I’d say they’re pretty bad fire support, and in my experience are just fine as melee units.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

So because they're BAD at what they're classed as (Fire Support), they must be something else?

Aggressors have always carried the Fire Support icon. They've always been listed in the Fire Support section.

The fact that their shooting rules may suck doesn't suddenly rewrite their unit classification. It just means the GW has (yet again) managed to bork up the rules.

Or maybe you have access to an exclusive codex update where they've actually gone back and rewritten the lore sections to remove them from the Fire Support section?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Lord Nord said:

So because they're BAD at what they're classed as (Fire Support), they must be something else?

Aggressors have always carried the Fire Support icon. They've always been listed in the Fire Support section.

The fact that their shooting rules may suck doesn't suddenly rewrite their unit classification. It just means the GW has (yet again) managed to bork up the rules.

Or maybe you have access to an exclusive codex update where they've actually gone back and rewritten the lore sections to remove them from the Fire Support section?

Doesn’t change their classification, but clearly shows they’re misclassified.

you can say ‘but the codex classifies them as this!’

(I don’t have a fire support section any where in my codex that I’ve seen, so maybe you can point out where there’s any fire support classification I’d love to see that.)

but that ignores the reality on the ground, or in this case the tabletop.

it’s like bickering over of ship that is classified as a destroyer  if it’s doing the job of a battleship better than the job of destroyer.

But if you’re going off of lore, lore and tabletop are two very different things.

They excel in melee more than they do in shooting. Sounds like a melee unit to me. If looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck it’s probably a duck.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Lord Nord said:

So because they're BAD at what they're classed as (Fire Support), they must be something else?

Aggressors have always carried the Fire Support icon. They've always been listed in the Fire Support section.

The fact that their shooting rules may suck doesn't suddenly rewrite their unit classification. It just means the GW has (yet again) managed to bork up the rules.

Or maybe you have access to an exclusive codex update where they've actually gone back and rewritten the lore sections to remove them from the Fire Support section?

Doesn’t change their classification, but clearly shows they’re misclassified.

you can say ‘but the codex classifies them as this!’

(I don’t have a fire support section any where in my codex that I’ve seen, so maybe you can point out where there’s any fire support classification I’d love to see that.)

but that ignores the reality on the ground, or in this case the tabletop.

it’s like bickering over of ship that is classified as a destroyer  if it’s doing the job of a battleship better than the job of destroyer.

just to be clear, ya’ll are saying a unit that gets a base of 10 powerfist attacks is not  indicative of a melee unit?

Looking at the BGV datasheet they also get a base of 10 attacks with power swords, while carrying 18” S4 guns, possibly even a S5 or S7 gun in the squad…

 

[Lemondish]

I don't think it really matters what we consider them - they're a goofy model,  with terrible stats overpriced for two jobs they don't even really do that well. 

If these are supposed to be the Terminator equivalent then it's only a matter of time before they just replace them on principle alone.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Fire support is an in lore unit classification, along with close support, battle line, command.

It used to be called heavy support, with close support being assault and so on. For marines, their in lore unit specification was almost universally analogous with the game rules unit specification, ie assault was always fast attack etc.

This started to change even before primaris, but especially isn't true after. 

Aggressors are fire support, meaning of the same bransch as devestators and hellblasters, ruleswise they're elites, but functionally on the table they're (now) a mostly melee unit with short range shooting

Edited July 29, 2022 by Reinhard

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

The issue isn't where the Aggressors now stand rules-wise due to poor rules.

The issue is that they were clearly designed as a Fire Support unit and Jes Goodwin and Co. wouldn't have NOT designed a proper Gravis melee unit on the Bizarro logic that "Well, one day the rules team will screw up the Aggressors' shooting rules so bad that everyone will think of THEM as a melee unit."

I guarantee an actual Gravis melee unit was designed before the Aggressors were even announced, let alone released, and WAY before their rules were screwed up to the point that people had to mentally reclassify them as a melee unit.

By this same logic, I guess Reivers are artillery since they've always stunk as a melee choice, which they're clearly intended to be good at.

When I'm predicting what's in the release pipeline, I'm speaking from the perspective of what a designer would have included as part of their vision for a cohesive range, not some reactionary counter to a temporary rules meta that they'd design on a cocktail napkin and stamp out in six months. That isn't how GW operates.

Edited July 29, 2022 by Lord Nord

[phandaal]

5 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

When I'm predicting what's in the release pipeline, I'm speaking from the perspective of what a designer would have included as part of their vision for a cohesive range, not some reactionary counter to a temporary rules meta that they'd design on a cocktail napkin and stamp out in six months.

Bold to assume rules are written on a cocktail napkin and not the palm of their hand, which is then washed.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

18 minutes ago, phandaal said:

Bold to assume rules are written on a cocktail napkin and not the palm of their hand, which is then washed.

With you in spirit on that, but I never said anything about writing the rules down anywhere. I was still talking about model design, just how it would be done (poorly) in a universe where they're reacting to the rules.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

37 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

The issue isn't where the Aggressors now stand rules-wise due to poor rules.

The issue is that they were clearly designed as a Fire Support unit and Jes Goodwin and Co. wouldn't have NOT designed a proper Gravis melee unit on the Bizarro logic that "Well, one day the rules team will screw up the Aggressors' shooting rules so bad that everyone will think of THEM as a melee unit."

I guarantee an actual Gravis melee unit was designed before the Aggressors were even announced, let alone released, and WAY before their rules were screwed up to the point that people had to mentally reclassify them as a melee unit.

By this same logic, I guess Reivers are artillery since they've always stunk as a melee choice, which they're clearly intended to be good at.

When I'm predicting what's in the release pipeline, I'm speaking from the perspective of what a designer would have included as part of their vision for a cohesive range, not some reactionary counter to a temporary rules meta that they'd design on a cocktail napkin and stamp out in six months. That isn't how GW operates.

Going off of base stats alone, I think they were originally intended to be an all rounder unit.

their shooting based on stats alone isn’t bad per se, but 10 powerfist attacks is just good melee. Add a shoot twice rule or something and their shooting becomes about as good as their melee, maybe even better than their melee.

How strong aggressors are in melee means that no, they may not have designed a dedicated melee gravis unit, and simply expected people to take aggressors for gravis melee.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Anyway, I used to harp on and on about a Gravis melee unit with heavy eviscerators as something I'd like to see. Then I was placated with a big BT release which has kept me busy since. 

Starting to finish up on that though, GW, *wink wink, nudge nudge*

[Blindhamster]

Was just pondering the rumoured jump infantry unit. I wonder what approach they might take for poses? Flight stands or no flight stands? Running or more dynamic? 

[Marshal Reinhard]

I dearly hope we skip the flight stands this time. The regular assault intercessors have running poses already, so something to set em apart I'd imagine (besides the minute differences in armor details)