Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[Blindhamster]

Yeah, that’s why I wondered about flight stands, I can’t see them going for molded bases to create the impression of flight. Maybe flight stands with poses somewhat akin to the dawn breakers for HH. If not on flight stands having them be in various mid-landing poses might be cool

[Lemondish]

36 minutes ago, Reinhard said:

I dearly hope we skip the flight stands this time. The regular assault intercessors have running poses already, so something to set em apart I'd imagine (besides the minute differences in armor details)

Everybody gets a tactical rock to leap into the air from this time. 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Lemondish

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Man, I wish I even had a decent amount of hope that the flight stands would be going away. The Inceptors suffered badly enough, but the Suppressors were absolutely neutered by them. Having grounded, braced Suppressor poses where they're cutting loose with the Autocannons - or even just preparing to - would have made some great sculpts. Instead we  get the "meandering lazily between firing positions like an unmotivated golf caddy" poses because the flight stand requirement was apparently set in stone.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

Yeah, that’s why I wondered about flight stands, I can’t see them going for molded bases to create the impression of flight. Maybe flight stands with poses somewhat akin to the dawn breakers for HH. If not on flight stands having them be in various mid-landing poses might be cool

I want to say flight stands, but the inceptor flight stands kinda really suck.

[Blindhamster]

Yeah, having to pin models to the flight stands is a pain in the rear lol

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

Yeah, having to pin models to the flight stands is a pain in the rear lol

I just want to know why they didn’t keep the old style ones

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I modeled my Supressors on top of big rocks. The new flight stands break too easy.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Something I don’t think anyone has mentioned before.

are there any gene lines that don’t have units in game that represent them well?

outriders-WS

HIs- IF

aggressors(flame)- salamanders

sneaky bois- Raven guard 

etc.

 

are there any gene lines that feel like they’re not yet represented in the primaris line yet?

if so, expect a unit for that line to make an appearance 

[Karhedron]

The lack of Jump melee units make Blood Angels sad. I know Inceptors and Suppressors technically count as Jump Infantry but they are firepower units and more like Tau battlesuits.

I want Primaris Death Company with Jump Packs. New Sanguinary Guard and Primaris Vanguard Vets. Time for the Angels of Death to descend from the sky on wings of flame!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

The lack of Jump melee units make Blood Angels sad. I know Inceptors and Suppressors technically count as Jump Infantry but they are firepower units and more like Tau battlesuits.

I want Primaris Death Company with Jump Packs. New Sanguinary Guard and Primaris Vanguard Vets. Time for the Angels of Death to descend from the sky on wings of flame!

Yeah, I’m just not too familiar with the preferences of some of the less popular chapters.

like aside from the techmarine and vehicles, is there a unit that particularly fits the iron hands methods of fighting for example?

 

[Blindhamster]

Iron hands would be tech marines, dreadnaughts and technically axe wielding terminators with augmentations I believe

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

On 7/28/2022 at 10:15 PM, Lemondish said:

I don't think it really matters what we consider them - they're a goofy model,  with terrible stats overpriced for two jobs they don't even really do that well. 

If these are supposed to be the Terminator equivalent then it's only a matter of time before they just replace them on principle alone.

Well, "Terminator equivalent" is a can of worms...

As was pointed out previously, the Aggressors DO bear some obvious design influences from the adjectiveless "Terminator Squad" with the Storm Bolter and Power Fist being morphed into the Auto Boltstorm Guantlet (Shooting) and Auto Boltstorm Guantlet (Melee), with the fifth-man Cyclone Missile Launcher option being carved up and spread out over the entire squad's Fragstorm Grenade Launchers.

But those are the "shooty" Terminators. The Terminator Assault Squad are the actual Terminator melee specialists and neither flavor of the Aggressor squad comes close to matching up with a squad of TH+SS Terminators.

(And no, the fact that the recent Armor of Contempt rule has lowered the effectiveness of Storm Shields doesn't somehow mean that Flamestorm Aggressors were designed with that rule change in mind. Armor of Contempt wasn't dreamed up for years after the Aggressors were designed).

No, I'm sure there is still a proper Gravis counterpart to the Terminator Assault Squad kicking around in the release queue. We'll probably see them as part of the accompanying 10th-Edition wave as - going back to my first post in this thread - I think GW is otherwise just running out of generic options and they've put off releasing one-for-one replacement squads about as long as they could.

For what it's worth though, I really don't expect the Gravis *Assault* Terminator EQ to have the dual Lightning Claw option. I think that'll be restricted to the eventual Shrike-pattern jump squad as far as the option for the entire squad to be equipped with them. In light of the recent Sword Brethren kit though, I could see the standard Intercessor squad eventually being given a similar fifth-man option to take Lightning Claws. But I think only that Shrike-style squad will be able to field them en masse. For the inevitable Gravis melee squad (again, sorry but Aggressors ain't it, Chief), I don't see them getting anything but the TH+SS combo. Would like to be wrong about that, though.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 7/29/2022 at 12:15 AM, Lemondish said:

I don't think it really matters what we consider them - they're a goofy model,  with terrible stats overpriced for two jobs they don't even really do that well. 

If these are supposed to be the Terminator equivalent then it's only a matter of time before they just replace them on principle alone.

Terrible stats?

which stats exactly are terrible?

as far as melee goes they get the same number of attacks as the BGV. They have the same WS as the BGV. They have better T than BGV the same 3+ save. Bring veterans they do have slightly better Ld, and the same wounds.

the only place their statline lags behind is M and Ld, and in both cases it only lags behind slightly.

if we start looking at wargear, BGV have the shield which makes them a bit more durable, but the aggressors hit harder, and are better at shooting.

compared to the eradicators that people love, stats are all the same except attacks which is higher.

eradicators shooting is harder hitting, but aggressor shooting gets more opportunities to hit and wound, and is generally better for most targets.

 

[Lemondish]

You're comparing them with a small list of cherry picked units, so of course they're going to look a bit better, but then again that was exactly what you wanted from the start. You chose these comparisons because they supported the conclusion you wanted.

Take a look at what they bring and ask yourself if it's something you need, let alone something you're willing to pay their high price point for.

What problem are you solving with a slow moving semi-tough unit with oodles of bolter rounds and power fists but no realistic transport option, no tools to get into melee faster, and no delivery method built in.

If you want power fist equivalent melee, i.e. you want to fight tough units, you can achieve it on another unit or platform that can actually reliably get into melee offensively. You have better choices that can actually get into melee thanks to not moving at a glacial place. 

If you want a brick to get to and then stand in the middle of the board and weather fire, you have better choices. They aren't nearly tough enough to achieve that by only rocking a 3+.

If you want more anti-light infantry bolt rounds well...that's not something super difficult to find for Marines :D

Their baseline stats paint a picture of a unit that wants to be in melee against tough targets because it's a power fist profile with a decent number of attacks, but are stuck at a 5" move and their shooting is specifically against a completely different target than who they would charge. That generalist nature isn't a problem if it weren't for the fact that their move and weapon stats imply you want to advance everywhere to get to the fight, locking you out of charging for your power fists in most cases.

They're eclectic as hell and that's all down to weapon and unit stats and special rules. Some of that generalist nature is a fine addition, but then it is directly contradicted by something else. And you get this bipolar unit for 40-45 freaking points a model. It's absurdly wasteful. 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Lemondish

[Karhedron]

GW have always tended to overprice generalist units. I don't think they appreciate how hard it is to leverage multiple aspects in a single turn. To take the example of Agressors, no expereinced player is going to poistion their units so you can easily shoot some squishy infantry and then charge a tasty armoured target in the same turn.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Lemondish said:

You're comparing them with a small list of cherry picked units, so of course they're going to look a bit better, but then again that was exactly what you wanted from the start. You chose these comparisons because they supported the conclusion you wanted.

Take a look at what they bring and ask yourself if it's something you need, let alone something you're willing to pay their high price point for.

What problem are you solving with a slow moving semi-tough unit with oodles of bolter rounds and power fists but no realistic transport option, no tools to get into melee faster, and no delivery method built in.

If you want power fist equivalent melee, i.e. you want to fight tough units, you can achieve it on another unit or platform that can actually reliably get into melee offensively. You have better choices that can actually get into melee thanks to not moving at a glacial place. 

If you want a brick to get to and then stand in the middle of the board and weather fire, you have better choices. They aren't nearly tough enough to achieve that by only rocking a 3+.

If you want more anti-light infantry bolt rounds well...that's not something super difficult to find for Marines :D

Their baseline stats paint a picture of a unit that wants to be in melee against tough targets because it's a power fist profile with a decent number of attacks, but are stuck at a 5" move and their shooting is specifically against a completely different target than who they would charge. That generalist nature isn't a problem if it weren't for the fact that their move and weapon stats imply you want to advance everywhere to get to the fight, locking you out of charging for your power fists in most cases.

They're eclectic as hell and that's all down to weapon and unit stats and special rules. Some of that generalist nature is a fine addition, but then it is directly contradicted by something else. And you get this bipolar unit for 40-45 freaking points a model. It's absurdly wasteful. 

 

Yes cherry picked list of units.

cherry picked because those units are units that everyone acknowledges as being good.

there is no other unit in the main codex that is just hands down way better at either shooting or melee.

they have pretty normal stats for primaris marines, that was the entire point.

 

here’s another one.

VV, possibly the best melee unit in the codex, gets 11 attacks out of 5 marines, lower T and lower W. 
 

assault terminators, again 11 attacks for 5 dudes. Same W, same M, lower T, but a better save.
 

Simply put you cannot find enough units that have significantly better stats to reasonably claim aggressor stats are objectively terrible, unless your position is that the stats of all marines are terrible.

assault centurions have the same number of attacks, but they do have better S, Sv and W stats.

So for melee the assault centurions so far are the only unit I can find that clearly outclasses aggressors.

same goes for devestator centurions.

the question is, are they 15 points better than aggressors?

 

while fists might be AT weapons, having 10 attacks means they have enough attacks to wipe most squads, and against hoards even if a few attacks miss, the PF profile pretty much guarantees any hit will kill, and from there morale will likely finish the squad off

Edited August 2, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Blade of Sigismund]

I can agree with you as far as lower points games. In 500-1k they fill a niche. My issue in larger games is that they cost elite level points without the ability to deploy asymmetrically. 

You put them on the table, they're tough enough to weather small arms, but not plasma or heavies.

I can see some use with support, but then the cost shoots way up.

Why pay 220+ support options to spend most of the game shooting bolter rounds? 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

41 minutes ago, Blade of Sigismund said:

I can agree with you as far as lower points games. In 500-1k they fill a niche. My issue in larger games is that they cost elite level points without the ability to deploy asymmetrically. 

You put them on the table, they're tough enough to weather small arms, but not plasma or heavies.

I can see some use with support, but then the cost shoots way up.

Why pay 220+ support options to spend most of the game shooting bolter rounds? 

Granted I’ve only played a couple games since going back to my marines, but I’ve used them in every game, and had no issue moving them up the table and getting into combat. 
At the largest game size, a table is only 44” deep, 24 of those inches are dedicated to deployment zones, so they have only 20” inches to cross at the very most, and at 5” movement, you’re eligible to charge a unit up to 12” away, so infiltrators or units that made a scout move will be chargeable turn 1 even if you go first. If you go second you’re almost guaranteed to get them into charge range on your first turn.

And IF GW gave them an advance and charge strat or ability, that would guarantee they get into turn 1, unless the player deployed them extremely poorly.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Dracos]

What constitutes a "dedicated" Primaris melee unit?

 

Aggressors (just add deep strike)

Assault Intercessors (increase Impulsor capacity)

Blade Guard Veterans (see above)

 

 .... adding a Primaris drop pod wouldnt hurt either

 

[Lemondish]

23 hours ago, Dracos said:

adding a Primaris drop pod wouldnt hurt either

It annoys me that a Primaris unit called the Hammerfall Bunker does not include rules for it to behave exactly like a drop pod while also not being a bunker that units can enter. I mean, it's even described as being deployed just like drop pods. It could have become the equivalent, trading capacity for permanence, provided they reined in the weapon array rules.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Lemondish

[Captain Idaho]

Didn't they add the Hammerfall to HH? Regardless I agree with you it would interesting if it could deep strike.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Valrak just released another video where he reiterates the claims about the 10th-Ed launch box being "Blood Angels" (most likely generic marines painted red) vs. Tyranids, and even the Lion coming back sometime in 10th. Sounds like multiple people with existing track records have sent these rumors his way.

So still seems to be a very strong likelihood that we see SM vs. Tyranids to kick off 10th (a rumor that long predated that Reddit post) and a range expansion for both the Blood Angels and Dark Angels in 10th as well. So, some fire underneath all the smoke of that Reddit post that was very likely someone piggybacking off of these possibly-legit leaks and layering a bunch of speculation on top.

Also, I was watching Winters' predictions for 40K video and one thing he's expecting is that GW is just going to roll out ALL of the primarchs into 40K eventually. That does make sense in light of what we're seeing on the tabletop regarding ALL of the armies, not simply the Space Marines. GW seems to want to have a special "face of the faction" model for EVERY army. Whether or not it ends up happening, I do like one possibility he suggested, which is that the Blood Angels "primarch" is liable to be the result of Dante attempting to cross the Rubicon. I know it was made clear in Darkness in the Blood that Mephiston doesn't believe Dante could survive the process, but at some point Dante will probably sustain some otherwise-fatal wound that requires the Blood Angels to go for the Hail Mary and attempt to Primarisize him. In the process of doing that, maybe Dante once again is visited by "the angel" or is otherwise somehow imbued with greater power and winds up as a Guilliman-level character and model. So we would have THREE loyalist primarch-level characters running around in Tenth Ed.

(Probably JUST in time for Fulgrim to get a 40K model as the Emperor's Children get their own codex near the end of 10th. So Chaos would continue to outnumber the loyalists, and even the specific loyalists would be at odds in their priorities).

Edited August 10, 2022 by Lord Nord

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

48 minutes ago, Lord Nord said:

Valrak just released another video where he reiterates the claims about the 10th-Ed launch box being "Blood Angels" (most likely generic marines painted red) vs. Tyranids, and even the Lion coming back sometime in 10th. Sounds like multiple people with existing track records have sent these rumors his way.

So still seems to be a very strong likelihood that we see SM vs. Tyranids to kick off 10th (a rumor that long predated that Reddit post) and a range expansion for both the Blood Angels and Dark Angels in 10th as well. So, some fire underneath all the smoke of that Reddit post that was very likely someone piggybacking off of these possibly-legit leaks and layering a bunch of speculation on top.

Also, I was watching Winters' predictions for 40K video and one thing he's expecting is that GW is just going to roll out ALL of the primarchs into 40K eventually. That does make sense in light of what we're seeing on the tabletop regarding ALL of the armies, not simply the Space Marines. GW seems to want to have a special "face of the faction" model for EVERY army. Whether or not it ends up happening, I do like one possibility he suggested, which is that the Blood Angels "primarch" is liable to be the result of Dante attempting to cross the Rubicon. I know it was made clear in Darkness in the Blood that Mephiston doesn't believe Dante could survive the process, but at some point Dante will probably sustain some otherwise-fatal wound that requires the Blood Angels to go for the Hail Mary and attempt to Primarisize him. In the process of doing that, maybe Dante once again is visited by "the angel" or is otherwise somehow imbued with greater power and winds up as a Guilliman-level character and model. So we would have THREE loyalist primarch-level characters running around in Tenth Ed.

(Probably JUST in time for Fulgrim to get a 40K model as the Emperor's Children get their own codex near the end of 10th. So Chaos would continue to outnumber the loyalists, and even the specific loyalists would be at odds in their priorities).

The last rumors said sanguinor was going to be boosted to primarch level.

I think GW is going to be very careful about how they move forward with Dante, and will be very hesitant to make any major changes to the character.

[Blindhamster]

Yeah I can’t see them doing more than a primaris update to Dante, if they even do that.

[Marshal Reinhard]

I don't see them leaving any of the big three chapter masters in classic marine form for long. Not dante, not azrael, not grimnar. Heck i expect BT treatment (still weird to me to be living in the timeline where i can use that line in this manner) for each of them in due time. No way they won't. That way lies printing money.

I even feel pretty sure they'll all also eventually get their primarch too (sanguinor for BA). That'd balance out the 4 deamon primarchs with 4 loyalist ones.  Mind I can see GW being very cautious about not doing that too quickly, depending on response. Next loyalist primarch is due soon according to what rumors we've heard to that effect, next one after that could easily have as long a waiting gap as between the first two.

Tl'dr. Chapter master primarization and bt style update for each of the big three in turn, sooner rather than later. Primarch models... eventually