Predicting Primaris (Again): Will the generic range be "complete" in 10th Edition?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Are they? Couldn’t tell all looks like normal primaris armor to me so far.

[Blindhamster]

And mephiston. I wouldn’t say helbrecht or emperors champion look like “normal” primaris armour tbh. Mephistons definitely doesn’t. Techmarine looks like techmarine armour with a few mkx details. Definitely artificer

Edited August 12, 2022 by Blindhamster

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

38 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

And mephiston. I wouldn’t say helbrecht or emperors champion look like “normal” primaris armour tbh. Mephistons definitely doesn’t. Techmarine looks like techmarine armour with a few mkx details. Definitely artificer

Looking at the emp’s champ yeah it just looks like the normal armor you’d expect a veteran to wear.

 

I did forget Mephiston.

artificer armor is supposed to pop and stand out from the armor surrounding it, not look more or less like normal armor with some extra ornamentation.

[Orange Knight]

Helbrecht, Mephiston, Adrax Agatone and the Techmarine are definitely in customised, artificer armour. As are the Ultramarine Honour Guard.

The Emperor's Champion is supposed to be more plain.

I think these are enough examples.

[Beta galactosidase]

7 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Dante actually does have an intended successor in the lore. Karlean. It’s noted in one of the mentioned books. And it was tycho previously.

 

in terms of his fate…

id hate to see him put in a dread

if he died in a meaningful situation, I could get behind it.

if he went primaris, I’d be fine with it, particularly if it resolves the wound that isn’t healing issue

if he stayed like he is, he will die. 

This is a really good opportunity  to address character deaths.  You can have right in the same codex a Chapter Master Karlean and a Chapter Master Dante.

it should be clear for all characters from them being space marines that whenever the time of writing is in fifty years they will probably not be alive.

 

and course Dante needs to be primaris just because that’s what releases are these days.  Canonically within ten years of becoming Primaris he beats K’bandha, the Swarmlord, Karandras, and Zandrekh, then gets chopped right in half by Abaddon and the Talon of Horus*. Primaris Karlean is his replacemeant, Karlean’s wargear includes the death mask of sanguinius and the axe mortalis, and they can’t be used in the same army.

 

 this makes  clear that every marine character’s life expectancy at time of appearance in the codex  should not be more than fifty years in-universe and you should feel free to do a generic chapter master for the Ultras and Raven Guard et al as you so please.
 

*or it’s left a mystery how he dies. Maybe he’s heading off to confront “the black legion” and it never says.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Beta galactosidase

[Sarvis]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Are they? Couldn’t tell all looks like normal primaris armor to me so far.

Helbrect and the Emperor’s Champion have very obvious non-standard primaris armor

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

37 minutes ago, Sarvis said:

Helbrect and the Emperor’s Champion have very obvious non-standard primaris armor

Ah yes the emperor’s champion and his highly intricate and specially crafted bare smooth armor…how could I have confused it for normal armor?

[Lemondish]

55 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Ah yes the emperor’s champion and his highly intricate and specially crafted bare smooth armor…how could I have confused it for normal armor?

Perhaps you have an ulterior motive. Only real reason why you haven't addressed the wagon load of other examples given to you.

Couldn't be that, though. No, no way.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

24 minutes ago, Lemondish said:

Perhaps you have an ulterior motive. Only real reason why you haven't addressed the wagon load of other examples given to you.

Couldn't be that, though. No, no way.

Oh yes how could I forget helbrecht who has 90% of his armor covered by cloth, and what you can see is pretty plain except for what? One knee pad? how awful of me.

[Blindhamster]

Guess I’m confused over what you’re looking for, even pre primaris those characters looked more or less the same and were artificer then too. Tbh, it’s always really just been blood angels that have highly ornate artificer armour. Lore wise artificer armour doesn’t have to be ornate, it’s just a better made set of armour

[Captain Idaho]

Yes it's certainly not worth arguing over... Artificer armour is in the eye of the beholder and let's move on.

[Karhedron]

I think GW is cagey about killing off characters, particularly iconic ones.  Look at the back-pedalling that happened when they killed off Tycho and Eldrad at the end of 3rd edition. Fans of both factions were angered as they had bought into these characters (bot narratively and as miniatures). Tycho is still playable in the Codex in both regular and Death Company form while Eldrad's death has been retconned entirely and he is now alive and well post-Cadia.

To me, this highlights the essential dichotomy that GW faces. Is 40K a setting a storyline? They currently have it as a bit of both as there is clearly a progressing storyline. It used to be that 40K novels were windows into specific moments on specific worlds. Now we definitely have a feeling that the setting is progressing in a narrative sense. But GW still want to have their cake and it by not killing off meaningful characters.

To be fair, this dilemma is hardly unique to 40K. Look at the marvel comics where most major characters have died and returned through all sorts of convoluted plot devices. The point I am trying to make is that is it not in GW's interest to perma-kill characters who are popular both in the fiction and the game. Yes, this leads to the unsatisfying situation where named characters are always protected by adamantium plot-armour but we have to remember, everything about 40K from the fluff to the rules is there to drive the sales of the miniatures. GW have been moving the narrative forward since the start of 8th after several editions of keeping it frozen but don't expect to see long established characters suddenly being killed.

[Toldavf]

As a counter point Tycho has been dead forever. 

 

[UnkyHamHam]

Artificer Armor is as wide and varied as Power Armor, and probably more so, since it's implied their is some unique craftsmanship put into it. 

It can be anything from venerable and reliable crusade era armor, to prototype one off variants, to ornately decorated BA or UM style armors, to the extra upgraded Martian style Techmarine suits. 

There or no definition on how it should look. Only that it's better and rarer. 

[Karhedron]

18 hours ago, Toldavf said:

As a counter point Tycho has been dead forever. 

He was killed off 20 years ago and is still in the codex. I think that illustrates GW's dilemma about killing characters off.

[Felix Antipodes]

GW’s dilemma is they always want each edition to move on the timeline but are loathe to invalidate any of their customers’ models by moving them off stage as the storyline moves on.  It’s partly why they made Astartes long lived in the first place (and introduced Rejuvenants for the mere mortals).

I’m mildly surprised that they allowed Tycho (and Creed for that matter) to actually die at all.

[Captain Idaho]

Moving forward with the timeline is a relatively new thing. GW used to create a sandbox with lots of edges of wars and rumours and allow for us to play it out.

I'd actually have liked Calgar to have been killed when facing Abaddon. Cheapens the peril if there's no stakes.

He could still be included in the Codex if GW is that happy with his model.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Captain Idaho

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

2 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

GW’s dilemma is they always want each edition to move on the timeline but are loathe to invalidate any of their customers’ models by moving them off stage as the storyline moves on.  It’s partly why they made Astartes long lived in the first place (and introduced Rejuvenants for the mere mortals).

I’m mildly surprised that they allowed Tycho (and Creed for that matter) to actually die at all.

Creed isn't dead. He's basically in suspended animation thanks to Trazyn. And that was probably done so that he could be brought back at any point in what was supposed to be the "new timeline." GW may not actually have any plans to do so, but by keeping him "alive" he could narratively escape Trazyn at any time to take part in a player's post-Crusade battle reports or narrative campaign and then theoretically get recaptured and go back on ice at the end.

Speaking of, GW definitely hasn't been moving on the timeline with each edition. They did one BIG hundred-plus year jump with Eighth and then immediately retconned it so that the events of the Eighth-ed starter set took place a dozen years post-Rift rather than 112 years. The events of the Pariah Nexus were clearly set up as the big threat after the end of the Plague Wars, which were themselves originally set after the end of the Crusade. But now the Pariah Nexus events took place in the first couple of years post-RIft, the Plague Wars were ended about a dozen years in, and nothing past that has really been explored aside from a few Black Library novels in early Eighth which may not even still be canon. The Vigilus and Charadon war zone stuff is also canonically set very early in the Crusade now. Devastation of Baal and Darkness in the Blood are probably now set within a few months of the end of the Plague Wars, given how Godblight ended. Originally the ending of DoB and all of Darkness were set seventy-plus years after the Rift opened.

Personally, I WISH they'd have either kept moving the timeline forward or at least stuck to the original timeline where "now" was 112+ years after the Rift opened. Not only does the far earlier setting for Indomitus make all of the "veteran" Primaris models look silly as they shouldn't exist that soon after getting thawed out, but it also invalidated a lot of players' histories for their Ultima Founding chapters if they want to take part in all of the narrative events that are now set mere years after the Primaris woke up. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Lord Nord

[Captain Idaho]

Using the term "timeline" was misleading by me and I apologise. I meant brought the narrative forward, since it's no longer a sandbox as it was. Rather it is a temporary sandbox, then a new 6 month release comes out and the sandbox shifts but the victories or losses and story we played in our own games is now gone

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s a temporal sandbox really… :D

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Well, a little bit of downside to the "Intercession Squad" Kill Team rules from yesterday...

I've been predicting since the Black Templars "Upgrades and Transfers" kit was announced that there would not only be equivalent kits for other chapters moving forward (not much of a prediction, I know) but also that there would be a generic *Space Marines* upgrade kit This would feature not only alternative bits for the various Sergeant weapons and potentially (hopefully) some new "fifth man" options for the Intercessor squad, but also plastic versions of the relics in the main codex. Thus, no need for Raven Guard players to pick up the Ultramarines upgrade set just for relics that are in the main codex.

However, while I still think that generic kit is coming, it's now pretty much a done deal that it will NOT be happening alongside whatever range update we get this year. GW is not shy about putting rules for bits that haven't quite been released into their print products - Apocalypse got the Las Fusil option for the Eliminators that hadn't even been revealed at the time, Vigilus Alone got rules for the Saboteur, Voxbreaker, and Incursor Marksman bits that likewise weren't shown for another several months.

Clearly, this "Intercession Squad" set of rules was written up, playtested, and finalized with a significant amount of intention. If there were a supplemental kit coming out in just a couple of months which would have added to the Intercessors' wargear options - or even given the Intercessor Sergeant a way to get his additional weapons outside of the Assault Intercessors kit - then rules for those bits would have been incorporated into the Intercession Squad.

But they didn't. Because that kit won't be coming this year.

I still think it's on the way and frankly it will probably have a greater impact dropping alongside the 10th-Edition Primaris wave as it may serve to rejuvenate the Intercessors (and koinkidentally sell a few more of those kits) at a time when the Primaris range will otherwise be coughing out its last new "generic" squads.

(Except Scouts. I still don't think we see generic Primaris Scouts until 2025 or so, as part of the 10.2 Primaris wave).

Even so, while the kit probably makes more sense coming out alongside the 10th Ed Codex, I was still holding out a little bit of hope that we'd see it this year alongside the Brutalis Dread and Desolator Squad.

But now, ALL signs are pointing to "nah."

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I wonder if we’ll ever see an inceptor captain.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Some of you who don't follow the JoyToy model news might easily have missed this, but the model previewed as an "Assault Veteran Intercessor" is armed with a Power Sword rather than a Chainsword. He is NOT a Sergeant, so the apparent revelation that (Assault) Veteran Intercessors can take Power Swords as a main squad weapon is news... or a red herring that won't bear out in the 40K line. But to date, JoyToy has been pretty accurate to the wargear options of the source. I think the only prior exception is a lieutenant with a chainsword? And even that might be representing a future model in the main line.

So I'm choosing to think that this new model is a look at an eventual legit Veteran squad kit, whether they end up doing just one kit that can produce the typical Intercessor OR Assault Intercessor loadouts along with any options or if they really decide to milk the grift and actually release a separate kit for each.

This fellow is also rocking pteruges, which would - if it's using an actual 40K design - imply that indeed this will be a new kit.

So... a dedicated Intercessor / Assault Intercessor Veteran kit in Tenth. Done deal.

Probably.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Lord Nord

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

What’s "pteruges" ?

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

6 minutes ago, Black Blow Fly said:

What’s "pteruges" ?

LMGTFY