Rumour Epic HH rumours

[Pacific81]

Hey guys - big Epic fan here! A lot of people posting that they wish the game would make a comeback - well you dont need to wait! There is a really active Epic community (check out Space Marine Epic Middlehammer on FB for starters) there are still events, tournaments etc happening and the best part is its never been easier to get into the game; there are lots of 3rd party proxies available, 3D printing is just exploding, even if you dont want to pay the increasingly expensive 2nd hand prices for GW originals.

I hope its ok to link this but here is a 'new player' guide which was made with help by the epic community. It contains a summary of the different epic games, where to find miniatures and community details. I absolutely love the game, if anyone wants any info or help with anything please let me know!

Epic New Player Guide

 

[Captain Idaho]

19 hours ago, animal310 said:

No, it allows far more scope for narrative play across the different scales. Just because someone has something in one scale does not mean they are not going to buy it in another.

The original AT morphed into a Horus Heresy game with Space Marries and later expanded to include other factions. I can see the same happening here in the fullness of time. 

Yeah this is a direct mirror of that by the look of it. Adeptus Titanicus to Space Marine to Epic.

[twiglets]

1 hour ago, Pacific81 said:

Hey guys - big Epic fan here! A lot of people posting that they wish the game would make a comeback - well you dont need to wait! There is a really active Epic community (check out Space Marine Epic Middlehammer on FB for starters) there are still events, tournaments etc happening and the best part is its never been easier to get into the game; there are lots of 3rd party proxies available, 3D printing is just exploding, even if you dont want to pay the increasingly expensive 2nd hand prices for GW originals.

I hope its ok to link this but here is a 'new player' guide which was made with help by the epic community. It contains a summary of the different epic games, where to find miniatures and community details. I absolutely love the game, if anyone wants any info or help with anything please let me know!

Epic New Player Guide

 

"3D printing is just exploding," so, uh, is this possible? :

Community: Completely normalises printing and makes it the norm, everyone does it.

GW: Oh I guess there is no market here and we can't make any money since we cant compete with this. 

Result: No new epic, no new marketing, no new official models, no new rules, epic remains obscure and niche with a tiny player base.

That would be a pretty epic bullet in foot moment.

Edited August 4, 2022 by twiglets

[Captain Idaho]

It would be best to discuss the impact of 3D printing on GW in the Amicus Aedes section, rather than here, so let's leave it at that.

[lhg033]

sorry if this has already been answered - how does the HH titanicus/'new' scale compare to the old Epic scale? Somewhere in the loft I have a ebay version of Epic 40k plus some extras that I picked up years ago and never got around to doing anything with. It'd be nice to have an incentive to do something with these if a new version comes out and they dont look silly in terms of scale.

[Noserenda]

The old epic scale was wildly inconsistent unfortunately, but tanks and infantry from it look alright alongside current titans, while most old flyers and titans are super tiny.

There is definitely a market for Epic, smaller scale games are popular in other genres and the original epic was right up there with 40k at the time with sales and focus, theres the old meme that everyone from that era has 10k of epic stashed in a box somewhere after all :D 

[Yodhrin]

2 hours ago, twiglets said:

 epic remains obscure and niche with a tiny player base.

As instructed we'll leave aside the 3D printing part of the issue and I'll just respond to this bit - yes? So? And? Leaving aside whether it actually is "tiny" by any standard except "compared to modern 40K"(by which standard basically every wargame ever made, including most of GW's even at maximum levels of "support", would be considered "niche and tiny"), if everything you need to play a game is already right there available to anyone who wants it, then what value does a corporate hype-treadmill actually bring to its community? "More players" I can already hear you saying, but that assumes that the type of players who need corporate permission to take up an avenue of the hobby that's already wide open to them would be a welcome addition to a scene that's really into a DIY attitude and fanrules. "New editions of the rules!" someone exclaims, but what appeal is there in that? Epic isn't AT, in practice the system is still in active development, and the people who play it generally consider it to be a solid ruleset that doesn't need a big intervention.

It may also be the case that the audience for a game like Epic simply *is* "niche and tiny", and that's okay and it doesn't need to be forced to be anything more than that.

The reality is simply that a lot of these games don't need GW at all anymore.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Yodhrin

[Redcomet]

2 hours ago, lhg033 said:

sorry if this has already been answered - how does the HH titanicus/'new' scale compare to the old Epic scale? Somewhere in the loft I have a ebay version of Epic 40k plus some extras that I picked up years ago and never got around to doing anything with. It'd be nice to have an incentive to do something with these if a new version comes out and they dont look silly in terms of scale.

It is a tad larger. But much more consistent than it was during Epic

[twiglets]

16 minutes ago, Yodhrin said:

As instructed we'll leave aside the 3D printing part of the issue and I'll just respond to this bit - yes? So? And? Leaving aside whether it actually is "tiny" by any standard except "compared to modern 40K"(by which standard basically every wargame ever made, including most of GW's even at maximum levels of "support", would be considered "niche and tiny"), if everything you need to play a game is already right there available to anyone who wants it, then what value does a corporate hype-treadmill actually bring to its community? "More players" I can already hear you saying, but that assumes that the type of players who need corporate permission to take up an avenue of the hobby that's already wide open to them would be a welcome addition to a scene that's really into a DIY attitude and fanrules. "New editions of the rules!" someone exclaims, but what appeal is there in that? Epic isn't AT, in practice the system is still in active development, and the people who play it generally consider it to be a solid ruleset that doesn't need a big intervention.

It may also be the case that the audience for a game like Epic simply *is* "niche and tiny", and that's okay and it doesn't need to be forced to be anything more than that.

The reality is simply that a lot of these games don't need GW at all anymore.

Wanting it to remain tiny and with a tiny player base is fine, but I don't think that would be the attitude of most people, at least not in my experience. People like to share things with others for the joy and fun of it and more people to do that with is broadly well liked.

"but that assumes that the type of players who need corporate permission to take up an avenue of the hobby that's already wide open to them would be a welcome"

mmm, this is just gatekeeping. I think only a minority into Epic would be this unwelcoming. 

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by twiglets

[Captain Idaho]

It's not an actively, officially supported game so it would of course have a more obscure presence.

But like Necromunda, a re-release of the game would be considered highly within the community as there are plenty of fans waiting for its return and new blood get caught up in the excitement.

[Noserenda]

Yeah the game that GW abandoned years ago has a small player base isnt exactly a zinger...

[Arkhanist]

4 hours ago, lhg033 said:

sorry if this has already been answered - how does the HH titanicus/'new' scale compare to the old Epic scale? Somewhere in the loft I have a ebay version of Epic 40k plus some extras that I picked up years ago and never got around to doing anything with. It'd be nice to have an incentive to do something with these if a new version comes out and they dont look silly in terms of scale.

The old epic scale was wildly inconsistent; it was supposed to be 6mm, but often wasn't. Going by measuring AT titans against their 'lore' height, the current scale is about 1:270, which for a basic human makes it ~6mm scale. 

GW have also stated that they're scaling 30/40k titans down to 1/4 for AT sizing. So for 28mm minis, that would be 7mm scale.

Old epic infantry and normal tanks in ~6mm scale generally look fine with AT titans. Old titans, other war machines and aircraft are considerably smaller than the current AT scale though, if you mix and match.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Arkhanist

[Iron Lord]

8 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

 

Old epic infantry and normal tanks in ~6mm scale generally look fine with AT titans. Old titans, other war machines and aircraft are considerably smaller than the current AT scale though, if you mix and match.

Handily, Aeronautica Imperialis has a pretty full range of Imperial and Space Marine Aircraft, to the same scale as their Titans.

 

So, that just leaves the infantry and tanks.

[Canadian_F_H]

2 minutes ago, Arkhanist said:

The old epic scale was wildly inconsistent; it was supposed to be 6mm, but often wasn't. Going by measuring AT titans against their 'lore' height, the current scale is about 1:270, which for a basic human makes it ~6mm scale. 

Spoiler

GW have also stated that they're scaling 30/40k titans down to 1/4 for AT sizing. So for 28mm minis, that would be 7mm scale.

Old epic and normal tanks in ~6mm scale generally look fine. Old titans, other war machines and aircraft are considerably smaller than the current AT scale though, if you mix and match.

 

This issue is further complicated by wildly disagreeing "lore" about the stature of different classes of titans. I think the worst extremes might be as bad as the same class of titan only coming up to the height of the knees of the same titan in a different lore source. 

Snipped from a wiki...

Spoiler

Warlord-class Titans are a larger and more powerful type of Battle Titan than its counterpart, the smaller Reaver-class.

 

They appear to be the most common class of Battle Titan in use by the Titan Legions, and many Forge Worlds field their own patterns. The Warlord is much larger than the aging Reaver-class Titan, putting its height at 32.76 metres (approximately 108 feet).

 

The Warlord Titan is also able to withstand a great deal more damage than the Reaver. However, there is considerable conflict in the Imperial records concerning this matter.

 

A Warlord Titan was also listed as approximately 33 metres (110 feet) tall according to the scale diagram in the Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse rulebook. Other accounts have stated it to be as large as 200 metres (656 feet). Depictions of the Warlord in Imperial artwork are even less consistent, sometimes showing it to be hundreds of metres tall.

Tldr warlord titans in lore vary from about 100ft to over 600ft tall. And artwork appears to reach more extreme heights.

 

So trying to gage scale from minis also has to match a statement of lore height with the miniature being measured.

So it's all rather messy because of GW and nothing should be taken too overserious since the source is entirely inconsistent across all incarnations (tho current AT appears to be trying to lock everything down to something consistent thankfully)

[Pacific81]

Very well said in that longer post above @Yodhrin

I have no objection at all to GW re-releasing the game. More gamers in a community is always welcome and there will no doubt be some lovely new miniatures. I think also that the Epic community doesn't have the fear that the BB and Necromunda communities had (actually still do) of a crap new ruleset that splits the existing community, as rather than being a single set of rules as there are for those games, Epic had 4 editions with some wildly differing mechanics (plus some community-made versions since!) All of them are still represented in player base and Epic players are generally nothing but adaptive when it comes to rules.

What I think is a shame are the cases of people who really loved Epic back in the day, or perhaps younger gamers who are intrigued, but are unable or unwilling to look at a game that can't be bought new in shrink-wrap from the GW store. To those people I will say come down into the gutter here and play, its dirty but there is a hell of a lot more freedom, and there will never, ever be a codex or rules release that torpedoes the army you poured your heart and soul into!

Edited August 4, 2022 by Pacific81
referenced Noserenda and should have been Yodhrin

[Arkhanist]

Images from a previous post by @Mendi Warrior with old epic marine infantry vs the rear door on an AT warlord. Close enough for government work!

[Evil Eye]

See I'd rather they made AT/hypothetical Epic reboot 40K-centric (mainly because I wanna build some small-scale Tyranid biotitans) but I suppose HH means they can make lots of sales from very few actual base kits, so I guess I see the point. Still annoyed though.

[Arkangilos]

At least remake Final Liberation :p

I don’t see why why an AT infantry and small tank supplement couldn’t be made as optional rules, with it being something like crusade rules where they aren’t meant for tournaments or something (one of the complaints I could think of is that if you introduce something like infantry and small tanks it becomes mandatory in competitive play, but with it being specifically stated for narrative games I think that should alleviate that). 
 

As for production they could try a new business tactic and sell 3D files to people who want to print it. Or license the designs of the infantry and smaller tanks to 3rd party like they do with video games. It wouldn’t cost them anything except for the books.

Or failing that they could just buy a cheapish 3D printer and make made to order 6mm models. 6mm would be the right size where detail doesn’t have to be perfect. My dad prints pretty decent 6 and 15mm models for our own stuff (not 40K), and makes fake bugs for my little brother and sister. The details are perfect for what is needed. I just don’t see how it would be a loss, and it could give more options to consumers, which is something they used to have a lot more of.

[Pacific81]

Actually what you are describing there @Arkangilos would really make things come full circle as that was what happened way back when the original AT was released. The first infantry and tanks were introduced, but it made the game a bit clunky and so led to the first Epic Space Marine being released, which rebalanced the game mechanics more towards the little guys.

The second bit on customers printing makes absolutely perfect sense, unfortunately though I feel it has less chance of happening than a race of mice people living under dustbin lids being found on the moon..! So in the meantime the community will just make do with fan-made efforts and proxies.

[Sete]

I for one, am extremely interested on Epic. And this is from someone who does not have a deep knowledge of it.I think it's the best medium for those huge HH battles. Space Marines Companies alongside Titan sounds fun, hopefully some awesome terrain for some urban wars.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Sete
Extra words.

[LameBeard]

I have been slow getting into the current version of Adeptus Titanicus. I really love the ruleset and want to complete my maniple. Past history suggests GW will bring out a new rule set to invalidate the current one before I achieve this - why would it not when that is its business model? So Epic coming soon seems plausible. But would GW really do that before the long-trailed return of the Old World on square bases? 

Edited August 7, 2022 by LameBeard
Errant apostrophe

[Interrogator Stobz]

We AT'18 fans can only pray that any new system keeps the majority of the current rules. Especially for Titans.

They are fantastic and could quite easily accommodate new smaller units, but your fear certainly has some basis based on GWs precedent.

[Fire Golem]

I'd hope Epic is a separate game with simpler Titan rules and more unit types, with AT remaining as the more complex but limited scope Titan game. Isn't that how it was originally anyway, or did Epic supersede Titanicus back in the day?

[Captain Idaho]

I'd be happy for both. I think the more complex Titan rules can work as they'd be like the special characters in the game compared to the massed vehicles and infantry.

But I also understand a design choice of some simplification too. 

Not too much I hope. Firepower values was a little impersonal for much of much fun unit types we had.

[Redcomet]

1 hour ago, fire golem said:

I'd hope Epic is a separate game with simpler Titan rules and more unit types, with AT remaining as the more complex but limited scope Titan game. Isn't that how it was originally anyway, or did Epic supersede Titanicus back in the day?

It superseded it as far ad I remember. Don’t think the titan rules changed much if at all.