Rumour Epic HH rumours

[beefeb]

On 4/6/2023 at 8:47 AM, Mandragola said:

The only problem AT has is that it’s “complete”. AT players are very happy with it and it doesn’t really need more releases - though they’d be nice. There are various names engine types that we haven’t seen yet but the game works extremely well as it is. 
 

When they release epic they’ll have a similar problem. At first people will be annoyed they don’t have all the units they want. When all those units have been released they’ll be annoyed there aren’t more releases. At least with Epic they could bring out more factions, perhaps including titans that could get rules in AT. 

 

 

I agree with your post in part....the 30K setting of AT is mostly complete aside from a few engines named in novels but not seen in plastic.  But thats my point, the game when it came out was alll a blaze with gossip, and heavy hints from the WarComm team that in future, the 40k element with xenos factions would be looked at, but that never came to fruition.   I would highly suspect epic would follow the same pattern.  They will hint at so much more, then after the initial blast of support, the input from further releases and ongoing hobby support through campaign books and white dwarf articles will dwindle off.   I suspect that there are still lots of people holding off from it waiting for its move to 40k and xenos factions.   As much as i would want epic to be a success, I am just not going to commit to a big financial investment into something that will likely fall away.

[siegfriedfr]

Epic stopped being relevant after forge world and GW started producing tanks and super heavies for all factions in 40k.

Epic would make sense if there were no or few vehicles in 40K and you needed the Epic scale to play them, which is not the case today.

 

That said, rumors indicated that Epic 30k will happen, i just really doubt Epic 40k will happen, except maybe for Eldars as a testbed.

 

 

[Warmaster1988]

Based on rumors it looks more like they would expand Epic into the Great Crusade instead of the M41.

 

Would make more sense, they could introduce other Stuff and Factions than those from 40k. Even Orks and Eldar would be different from those we know. Also they wouldn't need a "new" Faction for Space Marines to fit into the M41.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Warmaster1988

[firestorm40k]

35 minutes ago, siegfriedfr said:

Epic stopped being relevant after forge world and GW started producing tanks and super heavies for all factions in 40k.

I'm a bit puzzled by this viewpoint, as they're two quite different rulesets that require different approaches to playing. Epic captures and conveys the 'sweep' of a massive battle featuring entire companies of Infantry and Armour, maniples of Titans and squadrons of Aircraft more effectively than 40k can. You could argue that 40k wasn't really designed to convey war on that scale. 

 

Also, sure you can buy 40k scale super-heavies and titans, but not many people can actually afford to do so. Not to mention having the space for a game where you can legitimately field those units..! 

[Mandragola]

44 minutes ago, siegfriedfr said:

Epic stopped being relevant after forge world and GW started producing tanks and super heavies for all factions in 40k.

Epic would make sense if there were no or few vehicles in 40K and you needed the Epic scale to play them, which is not the case today.

 

That said, rumors indicated that Epic 30k will happen, i just really doubt Epic 40k will happen, except maybe for Eldars as a testbed.

 

 

I don’t agree with this. A smaller scale game allows for much more “realistic” combat than 28mm. Formations of tanks and even infantry can engage at a scale that more accurately represents their real range. Artillery like basilisks and death strike missiles, that shouldn’t be anywhere near the front line, can be represented much better. It’s not just about titans and super-heavies. 

[ZeroWolf]

I'll echo the other comments, saying that just because you can theoretically have Titans and the like in 40k scale doesn't invalidate Epics reason to exist.

 

For starters, they're approaching a war game from two completely different view points. In one, you're much closer to the action on one given front (one that in reality would have an effect on the overall war but doesn't necessarily mean victory in the scope of how big these battles are truly meant to be), while in the other, you're a commander/big nob/Farseer/Hive Mind/etc etc overlooking the entire thing. Really, back in the day with the scope of 2nd edition, a couple of stands of infantry coming in range of each other was a 40k game.

 

The perfect example of an epic scale battle is ironically the Horus Heresy 2.0 trailer.

 

A side note, when I was younger, I'd always wanted to do a campaign that utilised all 3 three main 40k games (40k, epic, BFG) as while it was probably a lot of work, it did sound fun, the idea of the battles feeding into each other.

[siegfriedfr]

This didn't come out how i wanted to express it.

Yes Epic is a better setting for massive armies with big vehicles and titans.

 

But i think the fact that GW pushed for big vehicles and titans to be produced at the 28mm scale, was one of the reason that Epic wasn't supported anymore, and Apocalypse somehow "replaced" it, both in terms of concept, and as a sales' pipeline.

 

In an ideal world, there would be fewer vehicles (like transports, skimmers, bikes...) for each faction in 40k, and Epic would be the preferred setting for tank/titans/aircraft warfare.

 

Unfortunately, the cat has been out of the bag for too long.

[Remain_Indoors]

1 hour ago, siegfriedfr said:

This didn't come out how i wanted to express it.

Yes Epic is a better setting for massive armies with big vehicles and titans.

 

But i think the fact that GW pushed for big vehicles and titans to be produced at the 28mm scale, was one of the reason that Epic wasn't supported anymore, and Apocalypse somehow "replaced" it, both in terms of concept, and as a sales' pipeline.

 

In an ideal world, there would be fewer vehicles (like transports, skimmers, bikes...) for each faction in 40k, and Epic would be the preferred setting for tank/titans/aircraft warfare.

 

Unfortunately, the cat has been out of the bag for too long.

 

I get what you mean. It became less relavant for GW, not the consumer. Because why sell 5 tiny tanks for £6 when you can sell five big ones for £30+ a pop.

 

The counter argument, from a consumer perspective, would be the market for large 40k games isn't necessarily the same market as for Epic. I'd never consider trying a massive 40k game these days, the system just doesnt work well enough at that scale, it takes too long to play and far too much space. But i'd play a game of Epic any day, just like i play Epic Black Powder regularly rather than try to do 28mm Napoleonics.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Remain_Indoors

[Redcomet]

Epic is a totally different gaming experience than 40k.

The popularity of Epic still, and all the other 8-10 mm games should be enough of a reason for GW to make it again. Honestly I can’t figure out why they are putting resources towards The Old World and not epic 40k and a similar games for AoS

[ZeroWolf]

Assuming that the rumours are true and we are getting epic back, and it sells well, I see no reason why they wouldn't have another stab at fantasy epic, unless the memories of warm aster haunt them that badly.

 

I think a more general 8mm lotr game would be fun as well, really sell those epic battles from the movies.

[Marshal Reinhard]

2 hours ago, siegfriedfr said:

But i think the fact that GW pushed for big vehicles and titans to be produced at the 28mm scale, was one of the reason that Epic wasn't supported anymore, and Apocalypse somehow "replaced" it, both in terms of concept, and as a sales' pipeline.

Is this really all that accurate though? Granted i'm no expert at epic 40k, but I believe the third and final edition of epic was released in 1997 and was withdrawn just 6 months later?

 

Forgeworld was founded in 1998, originally as a producer of terrain pieces and large collectors models. It wouldn't be until 2007 that we got the first edition of apocalypse, 10 years after the final edition of epic.  I believe the core idea of apocalypse was to allow collectors with huge armies and forgeworld collectors models to be able to use them fully in a battle where they could release the might of their entire collections at once. 

 

I mean, I suppose a core idea of your argument is that once apocalypse came about, it was filling partly the void left by epic, with the large scale battles with titans, super heavies and huge armies, which I see no reason to argue against. But the support for epic had died a lot earlier than when apocalypse entered the stage

[ZeroWolf]

Technically yes, the last big starter box was in 97, and it had a short shelf life before being handed over to Fanatic, who, with Forge World making new kits, handled it after, updating the rules to their Epic Armageddon version, but that was only ever a book. They said at the time, that it was going to be the model going forward, looking at different warzones but I don't recall that coming to fruition.

 

It was under Fanatics care that the Tau were added to the range.

[TheWarmaster]

On 7/31/2022 at 5:14 PM, Master Sheol said:

Clearly GW doesnt want the money from my gaming group

We are not into HH cause most playes in my group dont have interest in imperium vs imperium only

Nobody wanted AT cause it was HH too

Nobody wanted AI cause it was a boardgame separated from AT

And now nobody would like Epic cause it will be HH only

 GW must realize that there is people that dont want always and only Atsartes vs Astartes

 

HH Epic? No thanks

Aye, but they also know that there are thousands of us who DO want it and WILL buy it. They'll make they're money from us. 

 

Epic HH: Yes please. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by TheWarmaster

[Redcomet]

21 minutes ago, TheWarmaster said:

Aye, but they also know that there are thousands of us who DO want it and WILL buy it. They'll make they're money from us. 

 

Epic HH: Yes please. 

The 30k pool is much shallower than the 40k one. Beyond a lack of resources to make epic 40k, there is no financial upside I can see. But I also do think that Gw is hard pressed to keep up with the games they have going now. 

[DuskRaider]

4 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

A side note, when I was younger, I'd always wanted to do a campaign that utilised all 3 three main 40k games (40k, epic, BFG) as while it was probably a lot of work, it did sound fun, the idea of the battles feeding into each other.

We did this way back for a campaign, except instead of Epic it was Kill Team. The final battle allowed BFG ships to rain ordnance down on the table. 
 

I would definitely play Epic 30K. I love Titanicus and over the past few years have played dozens of AT games while I’ve played exactly zero 40K. The lack of space and disdain for the new rules make AT much more enticing and having the ability to field a Legion-scale force on a relatively small board sounds great. I just wish GW would actually do more with Titanicus, it seems like right now they’re in a hold pattern and haven’t even released a new campaign in over a year. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by DuskRaider
More to add

[Warmaster1988]

1 hour ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Is this really all that accurate though? Granted i'm no expert at epic 40k, but I believe the third and final edition of epic was released in 1997 and was withdrawn just 6 months later?

 

Forgeworld was founded in 1998, originally as a producer of terrain pieces and large collectors models. It wouldn't be until 2007 that we got the first edition of apocalypse, 10 years after the final edition of epic.  I believe the core idea of apocalypse was to allow collectors with huge armies and forgeworld collectors models to be able to use them fully in a battle where they could release the might of their entire collections at once. 

 

I mean, I suppose a core idea of your argument is that once apocalypse came about, it was filling partly the void left by epic, with the large scale battles with titans, super heavies and huge armies, which I see no reason to argue against. But the support for epic had died a lot earlier than when apocalypse entered the stage

 

1 hour ago, ZeroWolf said:

Technically yes, the last big starter box was in 97, and it had a short shelf life before being handed over to Fanatic, who, with Forge World making new kits, handled it after, updating the rules to their Epic Armageddon version, but that was only ever a book. They said at the time, that it was going to be the model going forward, looking at different warzones but I don't recall that coming to fruition.

 

It was under Fanatics care that the Tau were added to the range.

 

In April 1997, Epic40k was released and got heavy supported with a new Faction every Month and by the White Dwarf with Battle Reports and Optional Rules. The heavy White Dwarf support ended then in April 1998, when Necromunda 1st Edition was released. May 1998 and July 1998 had the last Epic Articles, then they focused on Necrumunda until November 1999, when Battlefleet Gothic came out. Fanatic Studio was founded in 2000 and handed over the Specalist Games, from then the Fall began. Warmaster was released in 2000 and Inquisitor and Necromunda 2nd Edition in 2001 and in 2003 they released Epic Armageddon and finally the Swordwind Expansion Book in 2004, that was the end of any Specialist Games releases until the reboot of Blood Bowl in December 2016.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Warmaster1988

[Remain_Indoors]

39 minutes ago, Warmaster1988 said:

 

 

In April 1997, Epic40k was released and got heavy supported with a new Faction every Month and by the White Dwarf with Battle Reports and Optional Rules. The heavy White Dwarf support ended then in April 1998, when Necromunda 1st Edition was released. May 1998 and July 1998 had the last Epic Articles, then they focused on Necrumunda until November 1999, when Battlefleet Gothic came out. Fanatic Studio was founded in 2000 and handed over the Specalist Games, from then the Fall began. Warmaster was released in 2000 and Inquisitor and Necromunda 2nd Edition in 2001 and in 2003 they released Epic Armageddon and finally the Swordwind Expansion Book in 2004, that was the end of any Specialist Games releases until the reboot of Blood Bowl in December 2016.

 

You're off on a few points.

 

Necromunda was released in 1995. Gorkamorka was the nearest release to 1998, released in 1997 with Digganob in 1998. Which did a lot of damage to GW financially, because the translated copies didnt sell. Necromunda had disappeared from White Dwarf for the most part by that point.  It was Mordheim that had the heavy White Dwarf presence, building up as a partwork of rules before being redone as a full release.

 

Last major Epic 40,000 release before it came back as Epic Armageddon was the Tyranid range release around White Dwarf 213-ish, which was right before Gorkamorka released, and then the Chaos army box set a short while later. Then it was a few White Dwarf articles about the Giant's Coffin and Iyaden.

Edited April 9, 2023 by Remain_Indoors

[ZeroWolf]

Ah Mordheim, there was another fun game.

[Yodhrin]

10 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

Ah Mordheim, there was another fun game.

Still is, I pray God daily GW keep their grubby mitts well away from it.

[Warmaster1988]

NewTruthNeomaxim on Dakkadakka posted the following:
 

Quote

For what it is worth, I have an industry friend who swears to me that Epic Horus Heresy is a box he'll have in hand shortly, and in the past he has indeed gotten and shown me some very early releases. If anything comes of it I will definitely share.

 

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/809458.page#11516240

[01RTB01]

A rumour of unknown origin but I'd wager is not true.

 

https://m.facebook.com/groups/CrusadeandHeresy/permalink/6134755503279933/

[ZeroWolf]

Ah the faeit 212 rumours, was looking at them earlier, if true, they're packing a lot in there. Though these rumours also state that all we'll see at Warhammer Fest is the logo.

[Noserenda]

Yeah the numbers feel super off to me when i read over it the other day, given their barrage of posts on it when everyone else is saying "soon" i suspect they are getting fed nonsense again.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Seems odd you'd get more command squads than assault squads?

 

Edit to add: ah looking at overall numbers, maybe not.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Sword Brother Adelard

[ZeroWolf]

Yeah, I think the same, though I'm always happy to be proved wrong. I also spotted them sharing a rumour that Battlefleet Gothic Hersey Edition is returning...in late 2024. That one screams fake to me.