New Firstborn Terminators [Rumour]

[Karhedron]

So will Neo-Terminator and classic Terminators co-exist in the new codex the way tactical Marines and Intercessors do currently?

 

If Terminators are currently 33 ppm then I am guessing the new ones will be closer to 40ppm (depending on wargear).

Edited January 19, 2023 by Karhedron

[Special Officer Doofy]

55 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

So will Neo-Terminator and classic Terminators co-exist in the new codex the way tactical Marines and Intercessors do currently?

 

If Terminators are currently 33 ppm then I am guessing the new ones will be closer to 40ppm (depending on wargear).

 

Well the stats from the first page are literally blightlord terminator stats but with 4W instead of 3W with -1D and blightlords are currently 40ppm with free wargear if that helps your guessing.

[Orange Knight]

An actual unit that doesn't have the Primaris keyword? No thanks. I have no interest in such a unit as my 40k Imperial Fists have all crossed the Rubicon. I get my fill of exotic Terminators in the Heresy game - and that does more justice to the unit than 40k does.

 

I would be happy with having a unit of modified Terminator suits that can be worn by Primaris Marines. Such a thing would be quite cool thematically, as a chapter wouldn't throw away such prized technology.

 

So, more accurately scaled Primaris Terminators, wearing the venerable suits that have been modified and extended, with updated cogitators that allow them to interface with the Repulsor so they can use it as a transport.

 

Units of 3 - 6 models. 4 wounds, toughness 5 with a 2+ save. I'll toast to that.

[Captain Idaho]

Since I have the alternative view, it shows that GW probably does need to have Primaris as a upgrade rather than separate unit for much of the army.

 

It would expand their sales across the aisle after all - Primaris and you push the Firstborn fans away. Firstborn and you push the Primaris fans away. Options for both? Yes please.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Does beg the question though, would the unit follow 3-6 or 5-10 model conventions?

[Orange Knight]

3 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Does beg the question though, would the unit follow 3-6 or 5-10 model conventions?

 

If there is any truth to that stat line, it does suggest the unit is Primaris as they get an upgrade of wounds and attacks (can still be seen with character units). There was also that Primaris character for the Black Templars that wears what looks like an ancient suit of power armour. I don't see why some of these wouldn't be converted for use by the new generation of Marines in special cases. I can imagine this being the case for special relic suits and the Terminator suits.

 

Basically, the lore states that things like MkX armour is being mass produced in plentiful quantities, so it makes little sense not to use it if the alterative was a regular suit of power armour. Terminator suits and custom suits of artificer armour do make a case for being converted for use by the new generation of Marines as they might be superior in certain ways.

 

I hope that in 10th edition they simply get rid of, or change the keywords of the units. It's time to do a big clean up of units and to consolidate the range as a singular faction. I would have no problem if a bunch of units were simply retired to legends - but not all, not yet. Some models are ugly or redundant, or simply very poor in terms of rules and design. They could scrap the Scouts (eventually replace them with Primaris version that look like the BT versions), just drop the old box Dreads, Hunter, Stalker, Rhino, Assault Marines, Tacticals, etc but keep things like the Kratos and Spartan (both as Lords of War), Centurions, etc

 

My ideal 10th edition update would be a consolidated, streamlined Astartes faction. All the generic units in a single codex. A 2nd book would have all the chapter specific units - DA, BA and SW included - just the updated Primaris units. Time to scrap all the old, resin characters and models (GW seem to be doing this anyway).

[WARMASTER_]

I just can’t see them releasing Primaris Terminator, especially after all the “Terminator” HQ’s have now been put into Gravis, I also feel like they would want to make them quite a bit different if they did go down that route so would but obviously Primaris when seeing the model 

 

Personally I’ll go with Valraks rumour as they’ve seen the models rather than a data sheet that can change up until the last 3 months before when it needs to go print 

 

Could be totally wrong but the Terminators are an Iconic kit so I can completely see it being true 

[Orange Knight]

It could go both ways, sure, but releasing a kit that is only compatible with the older line is counter productive to players, ultimately.

 

They COULD just be upscaled Terminators, but they have to scrap the current keyword limitations. No other faction has such strange restrictions.

 

Clean up the codex, consolidate a bunch of units, scrap a bunch of others, remove the Primaris keyword.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Get rid of Dreads and Rhinos? I've read some crazy stuff on this forum but that is by far the wackiest suggestion yet. In fact, that statement more than anything has made me realize that Primaris must just be a fad, because Space Marines without old Dreads and Rhinos doesn't even make sense. We can argue about new suits of armor until the end of time but these two things are here to stay. 

 

Get rid of Dreads and Rhinos, keep Centurions. Wild.

 

That aside, I am 100 percent in agreement for tidying up sheets. Honestly I wish Captains were just captains. Field him in whatever pattern armor you want, pay extra for your choice of 1: Jump Pack, Bike, Terminator Armor, Gravis Armor, Fobos Armor. We don't need a divide between first born and Primaris, it's honestly gone on long enough. Making new marines outclass old marines to try and force a positive opinion through destroying their lore was idiotic. Let's forget it happened and just say 'Woo, new armor types and troups we can all enjoy.' and go on with our lives.

 

Terminators would be the perfect vehicle for that step, so fingers crossed. Let's just be marines again. 

 

((Except that stupid stealth dread warsuit. That we can toss in the garbage where it belongs. After all this time I still absolutely hate that thing.))

[Orange Knight]

The Box Dread and Rhino are tiny kits that don't fit the rest of the range, visually. The old Dread has no knees and is barely larger than a Centurion.

 

On the modern table top, a Redemptor has the stature that befits a Dreadnought. Once we have more variations of the Primaris Dreads the old boxes will be even more redundant. In truth, the Redemptor is a very faithful up-scale of the classic Box Dread, and carries over a lot of the elements.

 

I'm glad that the Impulsor can only carry six models from the viewpoint of making sense, it's a bit small but it looks like they could potentially fit in there - It's bigger than a Rhino and carries less models.

 

Yes, the Rhino has been around for 30 year but we can't allow nostalgia to dictate what's best for the army. GW are free to make a new, larger Rhino that hovers. Or better yet, a Repulsor variant with no turret but greater transport capacity?

 

 

Going back to the datasheets - all MKX Primaris Captains should be one sheet, the same with the Gravis variants. That will remove about 5 redundant datasheets right off the bat lol.

The Gladiator Tank should be one sheet, the same for the Hammerstike speeders.

 

I'll stand by my opinion that a bunch of units should be retired to legend. All the Rhino Chassis vehicles, the Vanguard, Sternguard, Tacticals and Assault Marines, the old Terminators, etc, etc. But GW have to 1st release a Primaris jump pack kit with a variety of options that can take the place of the old Vanguard/Assault Marines. The new missile unit sound like a decent replacement for the classic Devastators.

 

Some recent plastic Heresy kits are simply awesome. The Spartan Tank and Kratos could be venerable Lord of War, and the Spartan would make a great transport for the new Terminator unit (if the rumours are true).

[phandaal]

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Can't be Firstborn with stats like that. Not unless Chaos get new stats...

 

Search your feelings. You know it to be true.

[Marshal Reinhard]

1 hour ago, WARMASTER_ said:

Personally I’ll go with Valraks rumour as they’ve seen the models rather than a data sheet that can change up until the last 3 months before when it needs to go print 

Well heres where the example of the BT castellan is interesting and valid as simply seeing that model gave only half the truth. He's visually 100% OG marine but had rules to accommodate him as Primaris.

[phandaal]

40 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Yes, the Rhino has been around for 30 year but we can't allow nostalgia to dictate what's best for the army.

 

Some things stick around because they have enduring appeal.

 

Thankfully it does seem like the decade of "let the past die, kill it if you have to" is drawing to a close. Looking forward to seeing some classics getting spruced up rather than tossed in the dumpster.

[Karhedron]

I would like to see some consolidation of the Astartes lineup. I don't want to see anything dumped but if GW got rid the Primaris/Firstborn division then you could leave it up to players as a purely aesthetic choice whether they run one style, the other or a mix of both. I don't think it would break the game if you put Aggressors in your Land Raider or Hellblasters in a Rhino or even Sternguard in a Repulsor.

 

Give Gravis the same restrictions as Terminators so they can't pile into light Transports like Rhinos and the job is done.

[WARMASTER_]

38 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Well heres where the example of the BT castellan is interesting and valid as simply seeing that model gave only half the truth. He's visually 100% OG marine but had rules to accommodate him as Primaris.

Very true actually 

[Rhavien]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Yes, the Rhino has been around for 30 year but we can't allow nostalgia to dictate what's best for the army. GW are free to make a new, larger Rhino that hovers. Or better yet, a Repulsor variant with no turret but greater transport capacity?

Well, it's 40k... In game things stagnated for over 10000 years. You'd have to advance the time line quite a bit, till every marine chapter would have gotten Cawl's new stuff and be fully converted. 

Otoh I wouldn't mind a bigger rhino chassi  but I would be sad about for all of my unpainted rhino variants. I mean, I am still running some 2nd edition metal/plastic combi kits from time to time. 

[Orange Knight]

Yeah to clarify I have no problem with GW updating some classic kits ideas.

 

I think the Redemptor is already a strong successor to the old Box Dread. It's more impressive visually, has plenty of old design call-backs, and has lore that takes the Grim-Dark up to 11.

 

Anyways, we really don't know anything about these new Terminators. I've not heard any conclusive evidence about them being Primaris or not. They could just be very faithful updates on the old design. The Black Templar range was refreshed but stayed true to the old kits. I really don't see a situation in which GW will release a new 40k Astartes kit as part of the main range, that isn't compatible with every release they have done over the last 5 years.

 

I do hope that the rules keeping Primaris and classic Astartes units so separate are scrapped in 10th edition. As I've said I'm happy for them to retire all the classic units who's roles can be performed by Primaris, but some can and probably should remain for the long term. I know people hate Centurions, but that is one of the more unique designs in the range and they perform differently enough from Terminators and Aggressors to merit consideration. Why can't they enter a Repulsor? It would be shocking if the new Terminators could not.

[Orange Knight]

The units look better (some are a bit messy, granted) and they are better designed for tabletop wargaming in terms of wargear selection and how the units are equipped.

 

The option bloat on the classic units is more suited to a skirmish game, in my opinion. Most war-gear selection is redundant to this day, and GW still hasn't been able to balance the cost or effectiveness.

 

I think that cutting down on redundancy and bloat, and having more visual cohesion is best for the army.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Orange Knight

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Basing argument that there will be FB terminators because of one Primaris Black Templars character…

 

[Rhavien]

To be honest, rules wise I would prefer if the new termis will be primaris just for transhuman. At least if it stays as it is. It often feels strange when I pop THP on an unit of intercessors holding an objective as they get showered by heavy weapons and survive, just to see my firstborn units dissappear. Especially now that AoC is gone. And as others have said it would only be reasonable to convert special and valuable equipment instead of binning it completely.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Rhavien

[Sergeant Centurion]

Im sorry for go a bit off topic but:
Box Dreads have knees, the point its the legs are modeled really straight and its hard to notice, but under some look it made clear where it is.

Besides that, maybe at the end, it will be primaris terminators, but if i can use them as FB terminators with no/minor changes, still cool for me. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by Sargeant Centurion

[lansalt]

Boxnaughts have always made sense. Their point is being able to enter enclosed spaces where bigger dreads can't fit. For that same reason they should have got a waiver for Boarding Actions (remember the BA dread in Angels of Death).

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

The units look better (some are a bit messy, granted) and they are better designed for tabletop wargaming in terms of wargear selection and how the units are equipped.

I’m sorry but I just can’t get behind them looking better, When firstborn are scaled up like with SM heroes they look absolutely great 

 

The Primaris range also has some HORRIBLE minis - Inceptors, Tactical Warsuits, Invaders and worst of all the Suppressors 

[Orange Knight]

Invaders and Suppressors are pretty bad, sure. Centurions with the Giant Drills and the Scouts are just as ugly.

 

The Intercessors, Bladeguard, Eradicators, Redemptor, etc are some of the very best Astartes models GW has produced.

 

Do I want to see all the old kits receive a scaled up release? I don't think that will help with the vast bloat the faction is suffering from.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Ill take surpressors over centurions any day. Though both units need visual fixing